Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: adias on March 21, 2016, 05:25:05 pm
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Apple introduced today a color temp control - Night Shift - for their iOS products. I bet the same will show up in OS X soon.
Will this be an issue for photo editing or a benefit?
I hope the 'Digital Dog' (Andrew Rodney) comment on this.
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In a color managed environment, I can't see how it could be good. Outside, could be very cool!
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In a color managed environment, I can't see how it could be good. Outside, could be very cool!
It could still be color managed. One can color manage at D65 or D50. If the OS setting changes from D65 (during the day) to D50 (at night) and one has screen profiles for those 2 temps it could work. No?
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What about the 'True Tone' technology that seems to alter the display WP based on ambient color temp?
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It could still be color managed.
A color managed environment is stable/consistent for a number of obvious reasons and needs.
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There were two different things announced:
Night shift
Designed to address the fact that blue light can cause sleep issues. They've implemented some control a very simple interface with a slider that goes from "Less Warm" to "More Warm." It's not very precise and can't be intended to be used for color management. It's there to address issues a cool display can cause like these: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-why-is-blue-light-before-bedtime-bad-for-sleep/ It's available now in the new OS and doesn't require additional hardware.
True Tone
The new devices will have some sort of color meter to read ambient light and adjust the display to compensate for different ambient light environments.
A color managed environment is stable/consistent for a number of obvious reasons and needs.
Right! The problem, of course, is that mobile devices are rarely used in a stable viewing environment which is a significant part of the color management equation. If done well, this could help with that. I'm a little skeptical. On the other hand it seems that iOS finally reads icc profiles embedded in images, so maybe they are getting serious.
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It's strange how warm the screen becomes in Night Shift and I'm not going to worry about it. What are you going to do, try to set up an alternative website to accommodate the temperature shift?
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It's strange how warm the screen becomes in Night Shift and I'm not going to worry about it. What are you going to do, try to set up an alternative website to accommodate the temperature shift?
I thought the same thing. I turned it on and thought, yuck, I can't look at this. I turned it down to a much cooler setting in the prefs, but will probably just turn it off after I try to give it a chance.
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IMO this should be helpful in its intended purpose: to combat the trouble some folks (me included) have had falling asleep when using bright daylight-balanced light sources at night. Over the past six months I've switched my home lighting back to incandescent color temps because of this, and have mostly stopped using computing gizmos and watching TV after ~11pm (for me, a life-long night owl, this is fairly early). The improvement in ease of falling asleep has not been subtle. I'll give Night Shift a spin at its default value for awhile and see how it goes. Won't be doing any photo editing once it switches on…not a problem.
-Dave-
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Right! The problem, of course, is that mobile devices are rarely used in a stable viewing environment which is a significant part of the color management equation.
Or even color managed. :'(
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Apple introduced today a color temp control - Night Shift - for their iOS products. I bet the same will show up in OS X soon.
Will this be an issue for photo editing or a benefit?
I hope the 'Digital Dog' (Andrew Rodney) comment on this.
This is an odd discussion. Night Shift and True Tone only exist on mobile devices to date which cannot be colour managed.
If and when these features move to OS X, it's a no brainer: TURN THEM OFF when you are editing - they will be an issue! Why would anyone try to circumnavigate a feature intended to distort the colour when colour counts!?!? :-\
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This is an odd discussion. Night Shift and True Tone only exist on mobile devices to date which cannot be colour managed.
If and when these features move to OS X, it's a no brainer: TURN THEM OFF when you are editing - they will be an issue! Why would anyone try to circumnavigate a feature intended to distort the colour when colour counts!?!? :-\
Just a discussion and a good one. It's good that the effect can be turned off.
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Given that we adapt to room illumination, would not a color managed phone that attempted to adjust its brightness and white point to that of the room it is in actually be more "accurate" as a photography tool?
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Given that we adapt to room illumination, would not a color managed phone that attempted to adjust its brightness and white point to that of the room it is in actually be more "accurate" as a photography tool?
Well as a user of this feature on my iPhone, no. Not 'accurate' or pleasing. I can easily see when on, that my iPhone has a warm color cast (which I believe is the point of the functionality). And since my iPhone isn't color managed, that's fine; I don't edit images on it anyway! ;D
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It would be pretty cool if Apple , Samsung Etc let us set the white balance of an environment and if we wish apply it to the mobile device if we wish.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Has any of you used XRITE ColorTRUE app? Only a small quantity of app seem to support it. It seems very promising...
https://www.xrite.com/colortrue
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Has any of you used XRITE ColorTRUE app? Only a small quantity of app seem to support it. It seems very promising...
Yes, mostly worthless for me. That is, if the goal was to have the iPad previews match my desktop, a mile off. Why? Well X-rite forces two or three presets for white balance. A simple WB slider would have allowed me to tweak it's settings to match the desktop much better. Does the "calibration" look better on than off? Kind of. Is it right, does it match what I consider right? Not even close. But for what it cost (nothing), it's better than a poke in the eye. :D
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Well as a user of this feature on my iPhone, no. Not 'accurate' or pleasing. ...
Fair enough. But would you agree that tracking ambient white point and incorporating it into the display rendering _could_ have been more "accurate"*) than having a static white point?
-h
*)As in "predicting the subjective response that the viewer would have had if they viewed the edited print in some other lighting condition"
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Fair enough. But would you agree that tracking ambient white point and incorporating it into the display rendering _could_ have been more "accurate"*) than having a static white point?
No, I don't.
Further, Night Shift Effect has nothing to do with color management. It's supposed to overcome a supposed sleep issue. I don't have any intentions, I'd hope other's wouldn't either, to be editing images on an iPhone!
http://www.livescience.com/54167-apple-night-shift-sleep.html
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If and when these features move to OS X, it's a no brainer: TURN THEM OFF when you are editing
The capabilities of Night Shift have been available for OS X (and Windows I believe) via a third party app for some time. It's called f.lux and I install it on all my Macs. I'm sensitive to sleep issues and have found it very helpful. It could be a placebo, but it seems to actually make me sleepy. I set the hours I want it in effect and if I'm editing in those hours , I turn it off. Simple. Until Night Shift I used blue blocking reading glasses to get the same effect with my mobile devices....also with excellent results.
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No, I don't.
So if I have a display in an environment that is 2000 Kelvin, as opposed to an environment that is 10000 Kelvin, having the display track the ambient white point has no benefits wrgt predicting how the image I am viewing would appear hanging on some wall? That would be surprising, considering my laymans understanding of how perceptual adaption works.
Further, Night Shift Effect ...
I am reasonably aware of how the night shift effect works, and what it tries to do. I am taking a broader perspective here: given that Apple knows how their displays work and have all kinds of cool sensors, what _could_ they have done, color-rendering-wise.
-h
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This is real simple; control your image editing environment. Calibrate and profile your display based on the fixed, consistent illuminant you use to view the prints NEXT to the display. Chasing your tail with differing adjustments throughout the day is chasing your tail and not recommended!
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This is real simple; control your image editing environment. Calibrate and profile your display based on the fixed, consistent illuminant you use to view the prints NEXT to the display. Chasing your tail with differing adjustments throughout the day is chasing your tail and not recommended!
With something like an iPad, it's not just about editing - it's also about showing your work. You can't control the environment when you show up in someone's office to show a reel or a portfolio on an iPad. If it works well, a feature like True Tone will be welcome in such situations. From their marketing, it looks like this technology is aimed at making the reading experience better. With current iPads the whites are often so cold that the page looks blue in an incandescent environment which isn't comfortable for reading. But there's no reason having built-in ambient color sensors couldn't improve the the viewing experience for photos as you move the device between different color environments.
Yes, the ideal situation is a controlled environment and a device that is calibrated for the environment. But for mobile devices and laptops, that's often not how the devices get used. If I'm shooting for a wire-service or paper, I'm often editing in a coffee shop or even my car and have no control over the ambient light.
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With something like an iPad, it's not just about editing - it's also about showing your work. You can't control the environment when you show up in someone's office to show a reel or a portfolio on an iPad.
True, but you're not editing. You're not working with a real color managed device. You're in the same boat showing people prints or a book or a magazine in terms of the surround's affect on your perception. Your eye's adapt to the conditions. Again, this entire thread about Night Shift has zero to do with color management.
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True, but you're not editing. You're not working with a real color managed device. You're in the same boat showing people prints or a book or a magazine in terms of the surround's affect on your perception. Your eye's adapt to the conditions. Again, this entire thread about Night Shift has zero to do with color management.
No, it's not the same as a print. With a print, paper white will reflect the ambient light and your eyes will adapt to the conditions. With an illuminated screen you have the possibility of a mis-match. Will your eyes adapt to the illuminant in the room and the white bezel of the device, or the illuminant of the screen? Or somewhere in between? Under tungsten light, the screen of the iPad is noticeably cold, which is a problem.
Yes, I agree this thread is mostly about Night Shift, but people keep bringing up ambient light matching (aka True Tone) which the new devices will also do. I don't really care about Night Shift, but I'm very interested in True Tone if it works.
Also, for what it's worth, sometime very recently (I think 9.3) iOS started honoring embedded color profiles in images. I'm not sure where the line is for a 'real color managed device' but it's definitely a step closer.
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No, it's not the same as a print. With a print, paper white will reflect the ambient light and your eyes will adapt to the conditions. With an illuminated screen you have the possibility of a mis-match.
Put white around the image being viewed. Control the conditions if this is such a big deal (we don't hear the masses watching TV's complaining do we?). For that matter, we don't hear the masses complaining about viewing their images on these mobile devices, when uploaded in sRGB. IF you're editing on such a device, then it's going to be shown elsewhere, in vastly different conditions, that might be an issue but we're not editing the images I'd hope, on such devices. We can't control the ambient conditions when we show up in someone's office to show a portfolio on a print either. This all seems to be a discussion in search of a solution in search of a problem.
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Put white around the image being viewed. Control the conditions if this is such a big deal (we don't hear the masses watching TV's complaining do we?). For that matter, we don't hear the masses complaining about viewing their images on these mobile devices, when uploaded in sRGB. IF you're editing on such a device, then it's going to be shown elsewhere, in vastly different conditions, that might be an issue but we're not editing the images I'd hope, on such devices. We can't control the ambient conditions when we show up in someone's office to show a portfolio on a print either. This all seems to be a discussion in search of a solution in search of a problem.
Look, all I'm saying is that this is a real problem that I experience when showing work on an iPad — the display is way too cold for many environments and you normally can't control the environment or the display in these situations. Maybe I'm the only one who has this problem (me and at least one Apple engineer). I haven't done a poll or even asked anyone else. My eyes, like most people's will adapt to white when looking at a print, but they don't adapt, or at least not fully to the white point of the small screen of the iPad. They adapt to the white point illuminating the room, which is different. The only real option is to dim the lights, which I have done, but which isn't normally possible.
You don't see the problem and maybe nobody else does either, that's fine.
we don't hear the masses watching TV's complaining do we?
Well, if what the masses accept is going to be our standard for best practices, we can all give up now.
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Look, all I'm saying is that this is a real problem that I experience when showing work on an iPad — the display is way too cold for many environments and you normally can't control the environment or the display in these situations.
Then try the free X-rite product understanding that it will not ensure a match to anything and doesn't have enough control but can warm the iPad previews.
Well, if what the masses accept is going to be our standard for best practices, we can all give up now.
I'm suggesting the iPad isn't best practice for showing off your images. Even pairing down devices that are emissive in nature. It's got advantage and some disadvantages and Apple's not providing anything here to counter those image viewing disadvantages.
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I actually look forward to these features. Mobile only at the moment makes a lot of sense. Even if they end up on desktop, I just don't see that being an issue for the fact that you can just switch them off at any time.
Nightshift mode comes on "at night." Usually at night I am already cranking the brightness of my devices way down. Bright lights at night if I am in ambient dimmer light already bothers my eyes. For that fact alone obviously viewing images or editing is compromised. Having my screen go yellow is a welcomed addition.
I've learned my lesson about editing late at night. The next day I always wonder, "who the heck edited this file!!!" I spend time with family and do other things in the evening. I leave my editing for the day. I also work on an eizo monitor. Rarely will I use a device like a tablet or my laptop for anything critical. I think for laptop editing, even if it had those features, I would turn them off if I had to work on files. Otherwise, I would reproof them when I am back in controlled light.
As photographers we really need to care of our eyes. That includes managing screen time, brightness, and exposure.
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Also, for what it's worth, sometime very recently (I think 9.3) iOS started honoring embedded color profiles in images. I'm not sure where the line is for a 'real color managed device' but it's definitely a step closer.
Could be to support the new iPad Pro which I found out has TWO color gamut's (the old sRGB and the newer DCI-P3). Not totally clear if the user can switch between the two:
http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm (http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm)
Since the iPad Pro 9.7 supports two Color Gamuts it needs to also implement color management in order to get the second smaller sRGB / Rec.709 Gamut to also appear correctly. Both Gamuts need to be separately calibrated at the factory.
Further (in terms of ideal conditions):
Apple has taken an important first step towards improving display performance in ambient light. But essentially all displays are still designed to work best in absolute darkness, but they all significantly degrade in even modest levels of ambient light. However, Microsoft has also taken an important initial step, with the Surface 3 providing its best Color Accuracy in typical indoor 300 lux ambient light rather than in absolute darkness like everybody else…
The best performing LCD and OLED displays are now delivering impressive sharpness, brightness, low reflectance, high color accuracy, accurate image contrast, and great viewing angles. So what comes next? Essentially all published display specifications and factory calibrations are based on performance in absolute darkness 0 lux, but mobile displays (and even TVs) are seldom viewed in the dark. Even low levels of ambient light significantly affect the image and picture quality. For example, the 100 percent Color Gamut specified by many manufacturers only applies at 0 lux. At 500 lux, which corresponds to typical indoor office lighting, the on-screen colors are washed out by the reflected ambient light, typically reducing the on-screen Color Gamut from 100 percent down to 80 percent, plus the image contrast is also significantly affected. And it gets worse as the ambient light levels increase.
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Could be to support the new iPad Pro which I found out has TWO color gamut's (the old sRGB and the newer DCI-P3). Not totally clear if the user can switch between the two:
http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm (http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_Pro9_ShootOut_1.htm)
Since the iPad Pro 9.7 supports two Color Gamuts it needs to also implement color management in order to get the second smaller sRGB / Rec.709 Gamut to also appear correctly. Both Gamuts need to be separately calibrated at the factory.
That's interesting and quite a sales pitch for the new iPad screen.
I'm not really clear what it means for a device to have two gamuts. Do you take that to mean it has a well-tuned profile to simulate sRGB in a way similar to how NEC monitors have an sRGB mode?
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That's interesting and quite a sales pitch for the new iPad screen.
I'm not really clear what it means for a device to have two gamuts. Do you take that to mean it has a well-tuned profile to simulate sRGB in a way similar to how NEC monitors have an sRGB mode?
Yes, that's my assumption. It operates just like SpectraView where it can alter the gamut. But how and when is something I can't figure out (don't have one).
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That Displaymate site Andrew linked is pretty solid in how it investigates display performance. Read the man's background who created and runs it.
I'll put my trust in Apple's implementation of their technology to maintain display color WYSIWYG (though it may not be perfect) over any other mobile device manufacture's going by what I saw of the Samsung Galaxy AMOLED pad color rendering of my sRGB tagged online images in both Samsung's version of sRGB and AdobeRGB gamuts at my local Best Buy. Both gamuts screwed up color way beyond the pale.
Apple's iPad was a lot more close viewing in Safari.
I don't know of nor have seen Apple's Night Shift Effect. But I do know that to achieve color balance across all hues requires a white balance that doesn't amplify individual warm colors over cool due to inconsistent neutrality. Overall saturation is inextricably tied to how warm or cool the white balance appears and though it's difficult to see this in high key images, mid-range heavy images such landscapes and skin tones will suffer badly if there isn't a color LUT or matrix correction tied to an automatic cool/warm white balance adjustment.
I was surprised to find how desaturated a lot of my images look even on the iPad when I thought they were a bit too saturated when I first uploaded them and viewed on my calibrated sRGB-ish display.
So I think what is most important is that device manufacturers accurately define what a warm vs cool white balance looks like. There are so many hues to choose from.
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I don't know of nor have seen Apple's Night Shift Effect.
If I had to describe what it looks like, default setting; add an 81C (or more) filter over the lens. Quite warm.
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If I had to describe what it looks like, default setting; add an 81C (or more) filter over the lens. Quite warm.
Thanks for the verbal description, Andrew. I was afraid of that and I'm assuming the saturation level of that "warm" look is quite noticeable.
So, could you see a color table correction similar to what happens applying a dual illuminant DNG profile after changing white balance? Or does it just show the entire screen go warm and warm colors saturate more and cool colors desaturate and/or both change hues?
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Yes, that's my assumption. It operates just like SpectraView where it can alter the gamut. But how and when is something I can't figure out (don't have one).
I can't imagine them having anything such as "two gamuts", unless the marketers have insisted on a garish "look I have a big gamut!" mode ?
Just do color management the normal fashion - assume that non-tagged RGB (of any sort, from images or applications) is sRGB. That way everything works as expected, while color aware applications that get tagged colors can take advantage of the larger gamut.
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I can't imagine them having anything such as "two gamuts", unless the marketers have insisted on a garish "look I have a big gamut!" mode ?
I'm just reporting what the 'experts' at Displaymate report. I don't have the device. My wide gamut SpectraView can emulate sRGB, a smaller gamut so I'm not sure why this new product couldn't either.
And in terms of True Tone, here's a review (which one can take with a grain of salt):
True Tone absolutely works as advertised, but that hasn’t convinced me that I really need it. Truthfully, the only time I’m aware that any iPad’s screen is so blue is when I’m trying to take a photo of it with the screen lit up, and the white bezel around the iPad display winds up looking yellow because the blue screen is throwing off the photo’s white balance. But my eyes just aren’t attuned to color temperature in normal, everyday use—I would never look at a screen and think “too yellow” or “too blue” unless it was way, way off. I’m too busy interacting with the content on that screen to notice, but everyone is different and your mileage may vary.
http://www.macworld.com/article/3055407/ios/how-to-make-night-shift-act-more-like-true-tone.html (http://www.macworld.com/article/3055407/ios/how-to-make-night-shift-act-more-like-true-tone.html)
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Since I haven't seen this demonstrated or discussed on issues dealing with how white balance variances can screw up the intended color rendering in color managed images, I'll show you what I've had to deal with editing 100's of Raw images shot under various warm/cool color temp environments where getting the proper look of neutral can be quite difficult to nail down.
Below is an image I've been working on lately to bring out all the subtle pastel color variances in the limestone rock that I didn't see due to the warmish rendering of the "As Shot" Raw ACR preview captured with an incamera "Daylight"preset. Note the differences in the lack of subtle color variances in the "filtery" looking warm "As Shot" version next to the final edit. This is why I don't rely on a custom WB while out shooting in the woods due to the constantly changing shade/sun color temps. I fix it in post by taking visual notes of how neutral the actual scene appears.
That's not the real point anyway. I just want to show what warm/cool WB does to color and wonder if it's a good idea to be futzing with this since all devices need to maintain some type of standard viewing condition. These mobile devices have such small screens anyway that I don't see how this warming feature is all that useful compared to what it's going to do to the appearance of color managed images that we've spent so much time, money and energy to implement.
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The capabilities of Night Shift have been available for OS X (and Windows I believe) via a third party app for some time. It's called f.lux and I install it on all my Macs. I'm sensitive to sleep issues and have found it very helpful. It could be a placebo, but it seems to actually make me sleepy. I set the hours I want it in effect and if I'm editing in those hours , I turn it off. Simple. Until Night Shift I used blue blocking reading glasses to get the same effect with my mobile devices....also with excellent results.
Thanks for the suggestion. F.lux works well.
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This article seems somewhat relevant:
http://anandtech.com/show/10265/understanding-the-97-ipad-pros-true-tone-display
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This article seems somewhat relevant:
http://anandtech.com/show/10265/understanding-the-97-ipad-pros-true-tone-display
That was a VERY informative link. Thanks for the heads up. This passage from the article was quite reassuring...
In the mobile world we've seen a number of problems crop up due to lacking color management, such as the natural oversaturation that exists on essentially all shipping AMOLED displays when they're not running in a manufacturer-provided sRGB mode. Given that iOS has had absolutely no form of color management, I was curious as to how Apple planned to target the issue. OS X is by far the best color managed OS in the desktop world, and with iOS and OS X sharing many common parts it seemed natural that Apple would bring the color management from OS X to iOS. Sure enough, that's exactly what they did.
There's also mentioned how the color of white affects color gamut, a behavior that follows closely with my demo a/b image example I posted above and when calibrating my display to anything warmer or cooler than neutral white 6500K.