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Author Topic: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)  (Read 3328 times)

Wawe

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Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« on: March 11, 2016, 12:47:11 pm »

I just bought the Epson P800 and am now ready to start trying out with the very first prints of my own as soon I get the printer set up and installed.

Even before buying the product I tried to read as much as I could online and watched tens of hours of training videos on the subject. However, previously I’ve only presented my images in digital format, so I have zero actual experience in printing (hence the following dumb questions).

So, my first questions have to with paper. Does anyone happen to know if the printer ships with sample paper sheets or do I have to buy some basic paper for the initial testing and print head alignment? Any recommendations for these purposes? Moreover, how about the types of paper to start out with the actual printing? I mainly shoot landscapes if this is relevant. I’ve understood that perhaps the easiest way for a newbie like me is to print on Epson’s own paper as they have direct matches for media type options (to control to amount of the ink used and so on). Is this correct?

Secondly, I’ve understood that color management is going to take some time to get familiar with and that it’s extremely hard getting the prints to (closely) match what you see on your screen. Nonetheless, I’m going to pursue this and try to learn a solid color management workflow to minimize waste of ink and paper. I currently have the Asus P248Q as my monitor and calibrate it with the Spyder4 Express that came along with the monitor. I believe that the monitor is good enough to produce an okay soft proofing view but I’m not sure about the quality of the profiler/calibrator. I also find it troublesome to (remember to) calibrate the monitor regularly and partly for these reasons will probably upgrade to the Eizo CG318-4K in the near future. Any comments on the hardware needed considering my needs? How about recommendations for learning material on color management?

Lastly, as I’m going to hang the prints on the walls at home etc., I also probably need to know how to frame them. This is the part that, at this point, I know the least about.  So can you recommend a shop for the framing supplies? I’ve understood that I should buy UV glass to protect the prints from harmful light to preserve the color and other properties. Is this critical?

Also, any other general comments or tips are very much appreciated.

Thanks for all the help in advance!
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Peter Mellis

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 01:48:31 pm »

I can't give any specific suggestions as to how to start except that you find a workflow either from one of the tutorials that you've watched (the one on Lula perhaps) or from a book and use that as a starting point. I'm sure that others will chime in with more specific suggestions. I would suggest that you get some relatively inexpensive matte and luster paper (start with Epson ) and work with those until you get up to speed enough to want to work with more expensive papers. If you work with both types of paper and print both color and b&w, you'll get a feel for what the different results can be. As far as framing goes, I have used a company called Frame Destination ( http://www.framedestination.com/ ) for years. You can buy high grade packages from them and quite easily do the framing yourself with professional results. Find a good source for ink - you'll need it. I think that there is nothing better photographic wise than holding a beautiful print in you hands; even better when you just made it. Have fun.
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Jager

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2016, 07:20:17 am »

Congratulations on the move to making fine prints of your photography, Wawe.  Printmaking is an art in itself and brings its own joys and rewards (along with the occasional frustration).  The P800 is a fine printer, capable of exhibition-grade work.  It does, indeed, come with a small 10-pack of letter-size Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster, as I recall.  You'll go through that very quickly.

Paper choice is highly personal.  To start, I'd simply buy a box of Epson's Exhibition Fiber (or a full box of the Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster) and either Hot Press Natural or Hot Press Bright.  That will allow you to explore both the luster/glossy and matte ends of the spectrum.

Profiles for the Epson papers will be included in the driver.  You can worry about OBA's and all the other arcana of paper choice a little bit down the road.

Color management will be at the heart of getting repeatable, expected results.  But it sounds like you already know that.  I will say that it's not at all difficult to get prints to match what you see on screen, once you have the right equipment and use the right process.  It's actually very straightforward.  The Eizo will get you there.  My guess is the Asus will get you close, but not all the way.  Don't bang your head on the wall thinking it should.

Soft-proofing is your friend.  If there's anything that will save you much time and frustration, not to mention ink and paper... it's that.

If you're deeply committed, as that 4K Eizo might suggest, I'd recommend you add a viewing booth, a la http://www.gtilite.com/products/desktop-color-viewing-stations/pdv-professional-desktop-color-viewers/.  Make sure you get one with a dimming knob (very important!).

Understand that getting a good print is very simple.  Getting an extraordinary print is very hard.  It's always been that way.

Good luck and enjoy the journey!  A fine print is the epitome of photography.


howardm

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2016, 08:29:09 am »

I would disagree here.  I think starting out w/ expensive EEF (exhibition fibre) when you're first getting your sea-legs is an unnecessary expense (and it's full of OBA's so that adds to the fun/complexity).  A classic recommendation is 'get a sample pack or two' so yo learn the differences between papers and can hopefully zero in on the kinds that you think you'll like.

Of all the hundreds of papers out there, I think most people who aspire to higher end work (either for sale or hobby) gravitate toward maybe a small number of 20 or so different/classic papers and most simply zero in on 4-5 papers (one in each 'category') depending on what you're trying to convey.

GrahamBy

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2016, 09:15:08 am »

I'm with Howard. Get a decent quality RC paper like Ilford Prestige or Epson semi-gloss, use the canned profiles, which all seem much the same for those types of paper. Your cost per print at 12x18 on 13x19 paper will be about 4€ or $4 per print... and you can just thumb-tack them to a wall to look at them for a bit. You will already find the prints are impressive.

Leave the decision about baryta or matte or whatever, and the complications they bring to colour management, for later.
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Garnick

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2016, 09:38:06 am »

Hello Wawe,

Sounds like you are approaching the printing world in the correct way.  We here at Lula are always glad to help newcomers as much as possible, so certainly do take advantage of us whenever necessary.  I use the Epson SP9900 printer and print on Photo Paper(Luster etc.), as well as 2 Epson fine art papers.  I also print on canvas from Breathing Color.  My main reason for this reply is concerning your choice of displays.  The Asus is a very basic display, from what I've been able to ascertain.  However, if you have at least been able calibrate it down to 100 or 120 CDM(Luminance) you already have a good start.  Most displays of this sort are much too bright out of the box and people tend to present me with vary dark images for printing when using such displays or laptops.  My first question to them is have they actually calibrated their display, and of course the blank stare is all the answer I need.  In darkening their image, due to a bright display, they have virtually thrown away valuable image data.  I then have to lighten the image to get a good print, which almost always introduces much more noise than is necessary.  My next request to my customer is to bring in the original file, RAW or otherwise, and we can edit it on my display. 

Now, all of that said, again I come back to the display 'issue'.  You mentioned that you will probably eventually step up to an Eizo display(big bucks), and if that is affordable, definitely go for it.  However, I would like to point out that many of the members on this forum(including myself) have sung the praises of the NEC PA line of displays for a few years now.  As a matter of fact, some of the most prominent photographers and teachers of the art have been using this line of displays for at least the past 5 years and more.  I purchased my first NEC approximately 7 years ago and have never looked back.  I now have 4 of these displays in various sizes and the first one is still working and calibrating well.  These displays are less costly that the Eizo and seem to be very comparable in quality from all reports.  Visit their site and see for yourself -- http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors.  I hope this helps, and have fun with your new printer Wawe.

Gary   
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 01:28:40 pm by Garnick »
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Gary N.
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Wawe

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 01:30:18 pm »

First of all, thanks everyone for your expert help!

As far as framing goes, I have used a company called Frame Destination ( http://www.framedestination.com/ ) for years. You can buy high grade packages from them and quite easily do the framing yourself with professional results. Find a good source for ink - you'll need it.

Peter, by "a good source of ink" do you mean the shop that sells the ink at the cheapest price or would you suggest inks from other manufacturers than Epson?

Congratulations on the move to making fine prints of your photography, Wawe.  Printmaking is an art in itself and brings its own joys and rewards (along with the occasional frustration). 

I've tried to prepare myself for the frustration part, at least...

If you're deeply committed, as that 4K Eizo might suggest, I'd recommend you add a viewing booth, a la http://www.gtilite.com/products/desktop-color-viewing-stations/pdv-professional-desktop-color-viewers/.  Make sure you get one with a dimming knob (very important!).


Thank you, Jager! I'll definitely have a look at the viewing booth options (with a dimming knob).

I would disagree here.  I think starting out w/ expensive EEF (exhibition fibre) when you're first getting your sea-legs is an unnecessary expense (and it's full of OBA's so that adds to the fun/complexity).  A classic recommendation is 'get a sample pack or two' so yo learn the differences between papers and can hopefully zero in on the kinds that you think you'll like.

I'm with Howard. Get a decent quality RC paper like Ilford Prestige or Epson semi-gloss, use the canned profiles, which all seem much the same for those types of paper. Your cost per print at 12x18 on 13x19 paper will be about 4€ or $4 per print... and you can just thumb-tack them to a wall to look at them for a bit. You will already find the prints are impressive.

Leave the decision about baryta or matte or whatever, and the complications they bring to colour management, for later.

So is the correct interpretation of these two comments that there are some papers, with which I'll more easily get the prints to match what I see on my screen than with others? If so, I might want to start with the easy way, moving on to the other choices once I've got a little more experience.

Now, all of that said, again I come back to the display 'issue'.  You mentioned that you will probably eventually step up to an Eizo display(big bucks), and if that is affordable, definitely go for it.  However, I would like to point out that many of the members on this forum(including myself) have sung the praises of the NEC PA line of displays for a few years now.  As a matter of fact, some of the most prominent photographers and teachers of the art have been using this line of displays for at least the past 5 years and more.  I purchased my first NEC approximately 7 years ago and have never looked back.  I now have 4 of these displays in various sizes and the first one is still working and calibrating well.  These displays are less costly that the Eizo and seem to be very comparable in quality from all reports.  Visit their site and see for yourself -- http://www.necdisplay.com/category/desktop-monitors.  I hope this helps, and have fun with your new printer Wawe.

Thanks for your comments on the display choice! I've understood that the color reproduction and other properties relevant for post-processing and soft proofing etc. are second to none in the Eizo I'm considering. Not to mention the "true" 4K, 31.1" size and other nice features. But most of all I find valuable the integrated calibration device, which I remember reading you could set to calibrate the display, say, weekly and never worry about it anymore yourself. It's ridiculously expensive, though, there's no denying that.

I have never owned a display from NEC, Eizo or any other of these top-end manufacturers. I think I can stretch the budget even for the Eizo CG 318-4K (and not get too much buyer's remorse), but my main concern, if I decide to do so, is how long will the product serve me. If I would have to buy another display in, say, five years, I'm not sure if could justify the purchase. If anybody has knowledge (tests, reviews etc.) on the expected lifetimes of these ultra high-end monitors, please let me know.
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Peter Mellis

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 01:47:04 pm »

You should only use Epson inks. That said, you will be shopping price and checking what you buy to be sure that it is fresh stock. I have purchased ink from Atlex ( http://www.atlex.com/ ) for years; best prices that I've found, quick service and fair shipping charges. If you are outside the US, they may not work for you.
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Rado

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 03:53:25 pm »

If I can jump on the bandwagon...

I'm also new to printing. I have a P800 printer and a NEC PA series monitor calibrated with colormunki photo.

I've done some test prints on Epson Premium Glossy paper using the profile Epson provided with the printer - and the prints didn't match the screen very well. Since the colormunki probe can calibrate printers as well, I've created my own profile for the paper and with it I'm getting a much closer match between what I see on the screen and what I see on paper.

Is this normal? I imagine Epson has much better tools available for profiling their own products, so why the mismatch?

It's not a problem per se as I'm quite happy with the prints when using the custom profile, I just find it puzzling.
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Garnick

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2016, 04:19:32 pm »

If I can jump on the bandwagon...

I'm also new to printing. I have a P800 printer and a NEC PA series monitor calibrated with colormunki photo.

I've done some test prints on Epson Premium Glossy paper using the profile Epson provided with the printer - and the prints didn't match the screen very well. Since the colormunki probe can calibrate printers as well, I've created my own profile for the paper and with it I'm getting a much closer match between what I see on the screen and what I see on paper.

Is this normal? I imagine Epson has much better tools available for profiling their own products, so why the mismatch?

It's not a problem per se as I'm quite happy with the prints when using the custom profile, I just find it puzzling.

Hi Rado,

Actually it would better if you were to describe in more detail where the print strays from what you are seeing on the display.  It also has a lot to do with your colour management workflow in general - camera settings, RAW file processing etc.  Of all the 'professional' photographers I print for, I can think of perhaps 3 or 4 whose files I can print with minimal adjustments while soft-proofing in PS.  Otherwise it's a matter of testing before I would dare commit to a hopefully final print.  Also, some of the best and most studious contributors here on LuLa would perhaps admit that they never always get a first time good print that totally matches their display.  For the most part it seems to be a situation where you just sort of get to know how the file is going to print, without totally relying on what you see on the display.  Therefore, if you can be a bit more specific with your question, I believe you may perhaps get a more accurate answer.  As far as the difference between your 'custom' profile and the canned profile is concerned, I'm not sure why that would happen, except for the fact that your own profile has been created with your specific display and printer settings.  Therefore, it would seem to follow that it might be a better match from display to print.

Gary     



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Gary N.
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Rado

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2016, 05:24:08 pm »

Gary,

I'm printing from Photoshop with color management turned on in PS and turned off in the printer driver. I had a picture with a yellow tint and the print was coming out rather neutral with the Epson profile. But since this is all new to me and I've played with so many different settings, the probability of an operator error is very high.

So instead my question would be - is there ever a reason to create custom profiles for papers if the paper manufacturer supplies an official one for the printer I'm using? Given that I'm just a hobbyist without any special requirements I'm guessing the answer is "No"?
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Jager

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2016, 07:48:03 pm »

Rado, in my experience Epson provides very good profiles for their upper-end papers, such as Exhibition Fiber, Hot Press, Cold Press, etc.  Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster is an example where they provide a noticeably less accurate profile.  I haven't printed with Premium Glossy in quite a few years, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is among the not-as-good profiles.

Which is to say, the quality of the canned profile seems to depend on the paper.

Garnick

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Re: Printing for the first time (Epson P800)
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2016, 11:20:22 pm »

Rado, in my experience Epson provides very good profiles for their upper-end papers, such as Exhibition Fiber, Hot Press, Cold Press, etc.  Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster is an example where they provide a noticeably less accurate profile.  I haven't printed with Premium Glossy in quite a few years, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is among the not-as-good profiles.

Which is to say, the quality of the canned profile seems to depend on the paper.

I've been using the Epson profile for Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster 260 for many years without issues.  As with most things, your mileage may vary, although I cannot think of a logical reason for that.  I recently had a print head replacement on the 9900 and the Epson Luster profile produces the same print that the older head did when it was working properly.  I have no problems at all with the Epson profiles and I print a lot of luster.  That's not to say that a custom profile would not show very slight improvements, but not to the extent that you have mentioned Rado.  I truly believe there is something else happening somewhere in your workflow.  Of course I cannot vouch for the Epson profiles for the P800, since I have no experience with that particular printer.

Gary
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