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Author Topic: New Canon PRO-2000 / 4000 printers  (Read 28027 times)

MHMG

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Re: New Canon PRO-2000 / 4000 printers
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2016, 09:08:34 am »

Wouldn't you want to use a protective spray anyway, regardless of whether the printer had a gloss optimiser? The optimiser might reduce gloss differential, but so does the spray, and the optimiser does nothing for print longevity, UV protection or physical protection.

Besides, 100% coverage of the whole print means the tank doesn't go a long way, and gloss optimiser is much more expensive than spray.

Would rather have the green ink back any day, or an extra shade of black, than using up one of the heads with optimiser.

I look for printer/ink/media combinations that meet my personal requirements for lightfastness without needing any additional top coat. Once I have identified an ink and media combination that achieves that objective (typically passing Aardenburg Conservation display rating limits at greater than 100 Mlux hrs), I believe the weak link for image permanence then moves to other factors such as humidity resistance, thermal stability, and resistance to cracking and/or delamination over time.  Any additional light fade protection achieved by further treatments is welcome but not necessary in that situation unless it can be shown to beneficially influence the other properties as well.  With traditional paintings, varnish coatings are both decorative and protective. When they finally discolor of fail in any way, they can usually be successfully removed by a paintings conservator and replaced. Inkjet prints have far too delicate an image receptor layer to stand up well to traditional conservation treatments, IMHO, so it's a one shot deal when you apply any top coat to an inkjet print.

i use sprays specifically to get rid of bronzing and gloss differential. To date, I have used traditional glazing methods for all of my prints on display (i.e. framed under glass or acrylic) and have not really been tempted yet to try the trendy new "naked print" look. If I do go that route, then I will either accept the fact that those unglazed inkjet prints on display will likely have significantly more limited display lifetimes, or I will move to a more robust coating/lamination method than can be achieved with typical low viscosity sprays like Hahnemuhle Protecitve Spray or PremierArt Print Shield.

The economics of gloss optimizer are more competitive with hand sprayed coatings than one might think.  With low viscosity sprays, one bottle of spray often costs $15 or more and the yield is only a couple of dozen or so letter size prints. Pretty similar in outcome and price to the GO cartridge consumption in my Epson P400, IMHO.  With hand spray techniques, one has to move the can well past the edges of the print to get even coverage, so there's a lot of inefficiency with respect to how much material is being wasted. An inkjet printer is far more efficient at getting the GLOP onto the paper!.  Moving to HVLP spray equipment and water based acrylic emulsions that can be used at higher viscosities tips the economics in the right direction for hand spray applications, but almost every time I tested samples for AaI&A members who submitted coated versus uncoated samples with these water based emulsions, there were chemical interactions with the very fine inkjet pigment particles and/or encapsulation chemistry that caused a decline in fade resistance rather than an improvement or merely a break-even situation. So, no free lunch yet :(

As for one's personal preference for a green or extra black channel in lieu of a dedicated gloss optimizer channel, I accept your opinion as a valid personal choice. Such a preference might well tip the customer in Epson's direction with the new P7000/9000 or P10000/20000 printer models, for example.  However, I suspect the folks at Canon have done a lot of focus group studies on what improvements their customers want, and so I note that the new Canon printers now opt for better B&W (with one more gray level) plus a gloss optimizer. Canon eliminated green, and made a special marketing point about how the magenta has been reformulated for better color which may offer a hint of some changes in lightfastness properties as I noted earlier, but it remains to be tested.  All of Canon's changes in the new ink set suggests, at least as far as Canon is concerned, that only a minority of end users would rather stick with the older lUCIA EX configuration. I'm in that category myself, at least until I can determine if the new Canon WF printers deliver better CO channel control compared to its implementation in the consumer grade PR0-1 (which was Canon's first attempt at a clearcoat channel for photo printers AFAIK). I also need convincing evidence to show that the new LUCiA PRO ink set has equal to or better fade resistance compared to both the older LUCIA EX and to Epson's latest HDX ink set as well. So far, Canon has utterly failed to convince me that the print longevity properties of its new Pro-2000 and Pro-4000 printers are at least as good as I now have with my older iPF8300!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 09:36:51 am by MHMG »
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shadowblade

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Re: New Canon PRO-2000 / 4000 printers
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2016, 10:44:43 am »

I look for printer/ink/media combinations that meet my personal requirements for lightfastness without needing any additional top coat. Once I have identified an ink and media combination that achieves that objective (typically passing Aardenburg Conservation display rating limits at greater than 100 Mlux hrs), I believe the weak link for image permanence then moves to other factors such as humidity resistance, thermal stability, and resistance to cracking and/or delamination over time.  Any additional light fade protection achieved by further treatments is welcome but not necessary in that situation unless it can be shown to beneficially influence the other properties as well.

Polymer sprays (e.g. Hahnemuhle Protective Spray) certainly increase the resistance of prints to scuffing and physical abrasion, as well as improving lightfastness.

Quote
With traditional paintings, varnish coatings are both decorative and protective. When they finally discolor of fail in any way, they can usually be successfully removed by a paintings conservator and replaced. Inkjet prints have far too delicate an image receptor layer to stand up well to traditional conservation treatments, IMHO, so it's a one shot deal when you apply any top coat to an inkjet print.


Physical durability is one of the things that concerns me most when it comes to 'archivability' of photos, which is why I think mounting to Dibond is generally a good thing, despite its irreversability, and have become more and more interested in the potential of direct-to-substrate UV printing (which is both extremely lightfast and physically durable, when a UV-curable topcoat is added). After all, there are countless examples of images (photos, paintings, etc.) where the image itself is intact, but the substrate is falling apart or otherwise extremely fragile.

Following on an idea from here a few years ago, I've had a lot of success spraying Breathing Color Pura Velvet and Pura Smooth, as well as Moab Entrada Natural, with Timeless - diluted 5 parts Tiimeless with 1 part distilled water, and with a drop of Photo-Flo (optional), it soaks through the receptive layer and deep into the paper base. When it hardens, the image, receptive layer and a good portion of the paper is all bound up into a single, thick layer of Timeless - it doesn't tear, and, even if you try to delaminate it by applying duct tape and ripping it off, the delamination occurs deep in the paper base (i.e. where the layer of Timeless/image/paper fibres ends) and not in the receptive layer itself. 1 coat for an almost-matte look, 2 coats for a satin finish, 3-5 coats for high gloss (5 coats is almost mirror-like). Doesn't seem to work as well with Canson papers. Fortunately, the Breathing Color papers - at least, the Optica One and Elegance papers you've tested (which are basically Pura Smooth and Pura Velvet with OBAs) and the Entrada Natural seem to have among the best longevity of any paper with any given inkset (just comparing the test results with Ultrachrome K3). Haven't tried it with gloss papers - maybe a 1:1 or 2:1 dilution with a drop of surfactant would allow it to penetrate even glossy fibre-based and baryta papers (there's no penetrating RC papers, though). In any case, you can get any level of gloss you like with the Timeless on matte paper.

Have you done much with the Kernewek/Arista Americana fabrics? I've had the chance to see a few prints made on them, but haven't been able to print on them myself. They're not like a normal canvas - up close, you see an even mesh of fibres, not a coating of gunk that can crack and peel off. Instead, the receptive layer is soaked directly into the canvas fibres and can't delaminate, and your tests seem to indicate they have excellent lightfastness - even better than Lyve. Would like to use it, but, at the moment, I don't have a functioning printer...
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MHMG

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Re: New Canon PRO-2000 / 4000 printers
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2016, 11:59:14 am »


 Have you done much with the Kernewek/Arista Americana fabrics? I've had the chance to see a few prints made on them, but haven't been able to print on them myself. They're not like a normal canvas - up close, you see an even mesh of fibres, not a coating of gunk that can crack and peel off. Instead, the receptive layer is soaked directly into the canvas fibres and can't delaminate, and your tests seem to indicate they have excellent lightfastness - even better than Lyve. Would like to use it, but, at the moment, I don't have a functioning printer...

This question probably deserves another thread ;)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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shadowblade

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Re: New Canon PRO-2000 / 4000 printers
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2016, 12:51:36 pm »

This question probably deserves another thread ;)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

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