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Author Topic: What is Epson thinking?  (Read 10218 times)

aaronchan

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What is Epson thinking?
« on: March 03, 2016, 01:26:49 pm »

When the P20000 was announced about a month(?) ago, I was, by somehow, smell something they are going to do.
And today, they have just announced P10000, another 44" printer featuring the same spec and ink as the P20K.

So now, on Epson's website, under SureColor P Series, there are 3 types of 44" machines
P8000 - Basically an improved K3 UC inkset
P9000 - Improved K3 UC VM inkset with addional Orange and Green, with optional Violet instead of LLK
P10000 - Brand new inkset with 4 different blacks, plus individual channel for each MK and PK

I do work as a fine art printer, but also do a lot of commercial job, plus consulting a few mid-large size printing company.
On the business side, I really can't see the advantage of having so much printer that could do a very similar job.
I'm more talking about the mass market rather than a fine art printer. I mean how many printer goes into a fine art studio or fine artist compare to a real production company.

Well, on the bright side, that's a good news for me. Because I could setup a 44" in my location (city) and have a 64" at the factory (somewhere of nowhere) which is about 100miles away from me.

Just my stupid thoughts. Please don't take it too serious.

AC

iCanvas

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2016, 02:19:50 pm »

Gimmeee a P10000. Love it!  ;)

I guess Canon has delayed their WF printers after seeing the P10000 and P20000.

Gar
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Paul2660

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 04:09:51 pm »

Surecolor P10000 sounds impressive. Not yet in Epson's website.  Did you see a reference price?

It's not showing up yet on Dtgweb's site.

Paul C
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datro

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2016, 06:02:18 pm »

Very interesting!  Available this Spring and priced at $6995 (MSRP).

Here is more information from the announcement at WPPI.

Dave
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deanwork

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2016, 09:11:51 pm »

That is so interesting. Congratulations to them. I think they are trying to satisfy everyone, designers, fashion people, photo artists, etc.

 I didn't think they were going to do it, put the extra gray channel in the 44" machine. I knew they were going to do it in the 64 inch machine because they said so a year ago, but the 44, that is very smart of them and I congratulate them for it. Sounds like it was cooked up recently.  Its probably too much to ask for that they have neutral gray inks like Canon and HP, so you don't have to add metameristic color dots to get to neutralized print. If they show less clogging anywhere close to Canon and HP, and if they don't have the horrible ink waste issues of the 9900 I'd probably buy one. They did their homework correcting the yellow channel, that's for sure and deserve credit for it.

Now it does appear that Canon had delayed their releases until after Epson showed their hand. That is smart too. Canon came out with the desktop unit that uses a true quad inkset. Canon could still be working on tweaking their inkset for impressive bw.

This is good. This is great competition and we all want that. I can't believe it took this many years to get to 3 grays when Jon Cone did it nearly 20 years ago.

John

Very interesting!  Available this Spring and priced at $6995 (MSRP).

Here is more information from the announcement at WPPI.

Dave
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Paul2660

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2016, 09:54:04 pm »

Does the P10000 get the new yellow that the P9000 got?  Reports I have read seem to imply that the new yellow is an improvement.

Paul C
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datro

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2016, 10:25:07 pm »

Does the P10000 get the new yellow that the P9000 got?  Reports I have read seem to imply that the new yellow is an improvement.


Yep.  From the Epson Press Release:

"Epson UltraChrome PRO Inks: UltraChrome PRO inks utilize the first four-level gray ink technology to produce outstanding grayscale prints. New Yellow pigment formulation for up to twice the overall print permanence and longevity when compared with previous generation ink set. Individual ink cartridges up to 700 ml enable users to avoid production downtimes and maximize profitability. The SureColor P10000 is designed exclusively for use with Epson ink cartridges."

Dave
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deanwork

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2016, 10:52:29 pm »

That is SO funny that they make this claim " the first four-level gray ink technology to produce outstanding grayscale prints". So many of us pleaded with them for 15 years to do it right and their pr people always told us it wasn't needed, and it won't happen. 16 years ago Lyson did it, and Mis did it, and most importanlty Cone did it in a very innovative and extremely precise way and showed everyone what it would do with photo quality gradients.  I'm glad they finally got around to it, but they were't the first, they were the last. HP used the Pk as a dark gray for matte media creating a quad set 9 years ago and Canon did it in desktop units 2 years ago. But I'm glad they joined us, for whatever the reason.






Yep.  From the Epson Press Release:

"Epson UltraChrome PRO Inks: UltraChrome PRO inks utilize the first four-level gray ink technology to produce outstanding grayscale prints. New Yellow pigment formulation for up to twice the overall print permanence and longevity when compared with previous generation ink set. Individual ink cartridges up to 700 ml enable users to avoid production downtimes and maximize profitability. The SureColor P10000 is designed exclusively for use with Epson ink cartridges."

Dave
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 11:38:24 pm by deanwork »
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datro

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2016, 11:01:25 pm »

Key new features for me:
  • New Yellow pigment
  • Both PK and MK available full time (no switching)
  • 4 shades of black (Lt. Gray, Gray, Dark Gray, MK or PK)

The one thing that gives me pause is that the P10000/P20000 max resolution is 2400 x 1200 vs. 2880 x 1440 on the earlier LF printers (including the latest P6000, P7000, P8000 and P9000 models).  I wonder if that difference is visible or otherwise noticeable in terms of print quality.

Dave
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deanwork

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2016, 11:37:56 pm »

Both Canon and HP are 2400x1440 which is plenty in my opinion.

The auto switching from MK to Pk is a huge improvement as is the yellow and gray. Damn it took a long time.  Sounds like they are serious and ready for a war with Canon in the realm of photography.

I'm wondering if slightly reducing the resolution was to improve inkflow, and missing nozzles which was their worst problem by far? If so they did the right thing and that could be huge.






Key new features for me:
  • New Yellow pigment
  • Both PK and MK available full time (no switching)
  • 4 shades of black (Lt. Gray, Gray, Dark Gray, MK or PK)

The one thing that gives me pause is that the P10000/P20000 max resolution is 2400 x 1200 vs. 2880 x 1440 on the earlier LF printers (including the latest P6000, P7000, P8000 and P9000 models).  I wonder if that difference is visible or otherwise noticeable in terms of print quality.

Dave
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Wayne Fox

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2016, 02:13:27 am »

The auto switching from MK to Pk is a huge improvement as is the yellow and gray. Damn it took a long time. 
this is the 11880 replacement (7 or 8 year old printer), which has dedicated MK/PK lines.  The extra set of nozzles adds quite a bit of expense, or so it would seem which keeps them out of the lower priced machines.  Although p10/20000 has 8000 nozzles for not that much more money, maybe the technology to make the heads is lowering the cost so well see these changes in a couple of years in the 6-9000 machines.  90% of the machines never switch inks, so it makes it hard to convince Epson its something they should do.

 The extra gray sounds intriguing, will be interesting to see how much difference it really makes.

The speed is really terrific.  I watched the p20000 work in Vegas in Jan ... the design changes are well thought out and the machine really cranks.

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Paul2660

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2016, 08:50:43 am »

Wayne:

When you viewed the printer in Vegas, did the P20000 or P10000 show considerable improvement in bronzing? and gloss differential on glossy or semi gloss papers, like 260 Luster? 

The sad truth, is Epson does not have a trade policy, and getting rid of a 9900, now 3.5 years old, still working great is not an easy thing to do in my location.  Just not that much need.  So I have to junk it or give it away to a local school. 

I do like the specs on the P10000 and it will be interesting to see how it is received.

As of this morning, I still can't find it on dtgweb or lexjet in the US, so I also wonder if the price will be 7K? or that will be more in the 5K range, as the P9000 is 3995 last time I checked. 

Paul C
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aaronchan

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2016, 10:00:45 am »

Wayne:

When you viewed the printer in Vegas, did the P20000 or P10000 show considerable improvement in bronzing? and gloss differential on glossy or semi gloss papers, like 260 Luster? 

The sad truth, is Epson does not have a trade policy, and getting rid of a 9900, now 3.5 years old, still working great is not an easy thing to do in my location.  Just not that much need.  So I have to junk it or give it away to a local school. 

I do like the specs on the P10000 and it will be interesting to see how it is received.

As of this morning, I still can't find it on dtgweb or lexjet in the US, so I also wonder if the price will be 7K? or that will be more in the 5K range, as the P9000 is 3995 last time I checked. 

Paul C

It said the p10k will be 7k, that's the msrp.
if you are worrying of your 9900, maybe you can try to use piezo B&W ink or anyother ink and use this printer as an experimental machine. this is how i usually do with my older printers.

ac

narikin

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2016, 07:38:49 pm »

this is the 11880 replacement (7 or 8 year old printer), which has dedicated MK/PK lines.  The extra set of nozzles adds quite a bit of expense, or so it would seem which keeps them out of the lower priced machines.

Ummm, the 11880 has dedicated MK and PK heads in there, with no-ink-loss switching, for years, so this is not a new feature!

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GrahamBy

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2016, 02:42:08 am »

That's what Wayne says, in fact...
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aaronchan

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2016, 05:21:33 am »

Ummm, the 11880 has dedicated MK and PK heads in there, with no-ink-loss switching, for years, so this is not a new feature!

Yes, this is not a new feature, compare to P20K
But to the 44" P10K, it is. It is the first time that happens in the 44" model

ac

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2016, 07:00:14 am »

Ummm, the 11880 has dedicated MK and PK heads in there, with no-ink-loss switching, for years, so this is not a new feature!

The 4000 was the first one to have both blacks ready in two channels from carts to nozzles.

For Epson 44" and 64" wide, what will be the variety of inksets and by that models next year? Ten channel heads for all I guess.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Wayne Fox

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2016, 04:17:36 am »

The 4000 was the first one to have both blacks ready in two channels from carts to nozzles.

For Epson 44" and 64" wide, what will be the variety of inksets and by that models next year? Ten channel heads for all I guess.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
I think Id prefer an extra channel and get the 4 grey/blacks instead of PK/MK without a switch.  Maybe theyll add a channel, and allow the user to set it up with current blacks and MK, or opt for the new black/greys of the p10000 and 20000, sort of like the choice of violet in place of one of the grey in the p9000.

But guessing it will take them more than a year ... cant imagine they would replace the current ones that quickly.
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jduncan

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Re: What is Epson thinking?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2016, 02:32:46 pm »

When the P20000 was announced about a month(?) ago, I was, by somehow, smell something they are going to do.
And today, they have just announced P10000, another 44" printer featuring the same spec and ink as the P20K.

So now, on Epson's website, under SureColor P Series, there are 3 types of 44" machines
P8000 - Basically an improved K3 UC inkset
P9000 - Improved K3 UC VM inkset with addional Orange and Green, with optional Violet instead of LLK
P10000 - Brand new inkset with 4 different blacks, plus individual channel for each MK and PK

I do work as a fine art printer, but also do a lot of commercial job, plus consulting a few mid-large size printing company.
On the business side, I really can't see the advantage of having so much printer that could do a very similar job.
I'm more talking about the mass market rather than a fine art printer. I mean how many printer goes into a fine art studio or fine artist compare to a real production company.

Well, on the bright side, that's a good news for me. Because I could setup a 44" in my location (city) and have a 64" at the factory (somewhere of nowhere) which is about 100miles away from me.

Just my stupid thoughts. Please don't take it too serious.

AC

Hi,
Did you get a clarification from Epson? If one is planing to buy a  44" printer, for photography, and want  Epson (epson has full support in my country) why should I buy? The p10000 has the strength   MK and PK without losing ink advantage, but is has less inks. I don't care about the resolution, I agree that it is plenty.
Could you help ? 

Best regards,
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