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Author Topic: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro  (Read 18731 times)

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Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« on: February 23, 2016, 03:49:32 am »

Press:

https://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/new/new_topic.php?id=566

Further specs:

http://www.sigma-global.com/en/cameras/sd-series/



I am wondering why they pulled a Pentax and retained the SA mount though. They shortened the flange distance on their compact cameras, why not here? Would open up other adapted lenses to their system.



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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 04:07:32 am »

Why not 35mm format, to make the most of the Art lenses???

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 04:42:06 am »

Press:

https://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/new/new_topic.php?id=566

Further specs:

http://www.sigma-global.com/en/cameras/sd-series/



I am wondering why they pulled a Pentax and retained the SA mount though. They shortened the flange distance on their compact cameras, why not here? Would open up other adapted lenses to their system.

OMG. 19.6 MP sampling positions becomes 39-megapixel-equivalent resolution, and 25.7 MP sampling positions becomes 51-megapixel-equivalent resolution???

Who are they trying to fool? Resolution is determined by the number of sampling positions per unit length or width. The sd Quattro has 5,424×3,616 (=19.6 MP) top layer pixels, and the sd Quatro HD has 6,200×4,152 (=25.7 MP). Just because the in-camera JPEGs can be upsampled to larger sizes, doesn't increase resolution, not even equivalent.

The resolution will probably be very good, and potentially with reduced false color aliasing (although not all color planes of the Quattro design are sampled at the highest top layer sampling density), due to the co-located 'RGB-ish' sampling of the Foveon sensor design, but why fabricate such measurable untrue resolution claims and terms like "equivalent" (so not the same, but equivalent/similar, how similar?).

I understand that due to the design (oblique rays are hard to capture vertically in the three layers), it is hard to produce much larger sensor dimensions (offset micro-lenses can only help so much), so APS-C or APS-H type of dimensions are probably the best one can expect from this type of design. No problem, it's large enough for the majority of users. But upsampling the files to 141% of their sampling density, and claiming that as resolution is still deceptive. I'd expect some benefit from upsampling to reduce apparent aliasing issues, but resolution is something else.

Rant over.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 04:46:20 am »

Why not 35mm format, to make the most of the Art lenses???

Hi Paul,

The Foveon design relies on 'distance traveled through silicon' as a first approximation for color. The larger the sensor dimensions become, the more rays will enter the silicon at an oblique angle, and that causes color contamination (some of which can be calibrated out, but there are limits). So the design benefits from retrofocus design lenses with a modest imagecircle diameter.

Cheers,
Bart
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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 10:14:08 am »

Got it now, thanks!

powerslave12r

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 10:21:21 am »

Ignoring all the misdirection about megapixels, which I believe Sigma has always done, I'm extremely eager to see what this camera offers in the real world. I hope Sigma puts a sensible price tag, battery life and improved file processing speeds.

Here is a link that has some good photos of the camera (Sigma's website seems to have trouble loading) http://photorumors.com/2016/02/23/new-sigma-sd-quattro-mirrorless-cameras-with-foveon-x3-sensor-and-sigma-sa-mount/

That thing is beautiful!

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Alan Smallbone

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 12:19:17 pm »

I have a DP2Q and Sigma really needs to improve their SPP, especially highlight recovery, it is extremely poor at that. The data seems to be there using Rawdigger to look at the planes, and also using a third party converter. The 3rd party converter does not do well with color so it is not really an alternative but it sure shows that the highlight recovery in SPP could be fixed. It is something that can be worked with, it is better speed wise than a few versions ago, but still is not what I consider a mature product. I do like it when it works with the data.

Interesting camera, not sure I like the styling the bottom not being flat will make it unstable and hard to have  decent L-plate. As funky as the DP2Q is in shape I got used to it. Interesting camera but not sure I would invest any more in this system. I have a feeling it will not be priced competitively, it will still be high.

Alan
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Alan Smallbone
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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 01:00:13 pm »

I have a DP2Q and Sigma really needs to improve their SPP, especially highlight recovery, it is extremely poor at that. The data seems to be there using Rawdigger to look at the planes, and also using a third party converter. The 3rd party converter does not do well with color so it is not really an alternative but it sure shows that the highlight recovery in SPP could be fixed. It is something that can be worked with, it is better speed wise than a few versions ago, but still is not what I consider a mature product. I do like it when it works with the data.

Interesting camera, not sure I like the styling the bottom not being flat will make it unstable and hard to have  decent L-plate. As funky as the DP2Q is in shape I got used to it. Interesting camera but not sure I would invest any more in this system. I have a feeling it will not be priced competitively, it will still be high.

Alan

And I think, besides pricing, this is the big issue with Sigma's cameras. How many of us want to buy a camera that takes us out of our normal Lightroom/Capture One workflow? I know, at least for me, that has been a stopping point for picking up one of the P&S versions. If they worked with Adobe and got it added to their supported RAWs, I wouldn't be surprised if it helped sell a few more cameras.
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 01:16:42 pm »

And I think, besides pricing, this is the big issue with Sigma's cameras. How many of us want to buy a camera that takes us out of our normal Lightroom/Capture One workflow? I know, at least for me, that has been a stopping point for picking up one of the P&S versions. If they worked with Adobe and got it added to their supported RAWs, I wouldn't be surprised if it helped sell a few more cameras.

It is too much of a niche product for Adobe to deal with, they had a hard enough with the pipeline for the Fuji, the Sigma is a whole different world. The non Adobe workflow is not a big problem for me, I can get decent tifs from SPP most of the time, but sometimes there are highlights where is should be able to recover them but it doesn't and that causes strange color artifacting. That is my biggest beef with it. The speed is reasonable now on a decent system, they did make a lot of in roads to that in newer versions.

The other drawback to the Sigma is the higher ISO have a lot of noise in them. When it works, it can work great and you get great resolution and color with them.
A couple of snapshots from a drive from last weekend with the DP2Q. These are processed in SPP and very little else was done to them.

_SDI0947 by Alan Smallbone, on Flickr

old road by Alan Smallbone, on Flickr

Alan
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 01:16:48 pm »

How many of us
this is not for  us - this is for Foveon aficionados ... that's totally different mindset
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powerslave12r

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 01:51:53 pm »

Alan, IIRC, have we not crossed paths in Merrill threads? In case you have owned a Merrill, what are your impressions about the Quattro, especially compared to the Merrill?

As an aside, I have looked at samples from A7RII, DP0Q/2Q etc and the Quattro seems to be resolve better. This has not been a very comprehensive search for samples and I also understand that the A7RII performance depends on the lenses. The reason I bring this up is because in my head the A7RII was a Merrill like camera that could do all ISOs etc.

But after looking at samples, I started fantasizing about the Quattro, and now, with the SDQ and SDQh, I have an alternative to the A7rII.

Hopefully, the press doesn't write off the SDQ and the SDQh, but reviews them thoroughly instead.
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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 02:11:47 pm »

this is not for  us - this is for Foveon aficionados ... that's totally different mindset

Meh, I'm not sure if that is true or not. And I doubt either of us are in a position to truly know, unless you sit in the Sigma boardroom.

My point was, if they want to grow market share, they need to get their product to work more seamlessly in the majority of workflows. If they are happy with their niche, why make an adapter for your glass to also work on E mount?
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 02:25:45 pm »

Alan, IIRC, have we not crossed paths in Merrill threads? In case you have owned a Merrill, what are your impressions about the Quattro, especially compared to the Merrill?

As an aside, I have looked at samples from A7RII, DP0Q/2Q etc and the Quattro seems to be resolve better. This has not been a very comprehensive search for samples and I also understand that the A7RII performance depends on the lenses. The reason I bring this up is because in my head the A7RII was a Merrill like camera that could do all ISOs etc.

But after looking at samples, I started fantasizing about the Quattro, and now, with the SDQ and SDQh, I have an alternative to the A7rII.

Hopefully, the press doesn't write off the SDQ and the SDQh, but reviews them thoroughly instead.

Yes I think we have crossed paths. I also have a DP3M. The Quattro files do not have that huge microcontrast that the Merrills have but I think in most cases you can get that look with a little bit of processing. I got the Sigmas because of the resolving, it really does great when it is well exposed. I think you really need to be careful on things like the focus point and stability when shooting. I have kind of lusted after the Dp0Q because of the lens and it is a wider angle than the DP2Q I have, and especially since the price has dropped, the Quattros are $700 at B&H. The Quattros are much faster shooting than the Merrills, battery lasts longer and ISO performance is better. With the Quattro I can get away with 1600ISO for a monochrome image and work with color at up to 800 if carefully exposed. The extra battery life is great, so much better than the Merrill. The funky design too some getting used to on the Quattros, the LVF viewfinder attachment is a must have for the Quattros, especially outdoors.

I have not shot the Sonys so hard for me to compare them, not really interested in the Sony lineup and the earlier Sonys I never liked the interface. I will probably rent the new Sigma when it comes out with a lens and give it try. It would be nice if Sigma did the try before you buy with the new cameras like they did with the DP2Q, I did that and that is what got me to buy it.

To me the Quattro is a supplemental camera, it is great for certain shots and the results when it is "on" are fantastic and print big, the shots above have great resolution, the small individual flowers in the front are nice and sharp as are the details on the oak tree silhouette on the hill on the ridge line. Hard to get that resolution with other cameras though certainly doable but not for the price point of the Q. The Quattro is also easy to carry, I will sometimes go back to using a photo vest when out shooting and throw the Quattro in a pocket and have the Fuji around my neck with a lens or two in pockets and that is great fun. So for the price point as a supplemental camera the Quattro is great.
The thing with the new ILC from Sigma is it is buying into a whole new system and I am little more hesitant to do that, just because of overall cost, size and having to buy new heavier lenses. I have gotten so used to the Fuji and great lenses in a lightweight package. So it may tempt me more to the DP0Q now with the lower costs and have the two different focal lengths and save a ton of money.
If you can rent one and try it, it does have a learning curve exposure wise and getting used to the handling. SPP is free to download to process the files. although the new firmware and SPP have improved the exposure and color and looks like it also reduced the noise levels, but I have not tested it thoroughly it only came out late last week.
The Sigma crowd on forums is kind of unique they are obsessed with pixel peeping and micro contrast, I get it but that is not all there is to photography.

Alan

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Alan Smallbone
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mbaginy

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 02:28:52 pm »

Here is a link that has some good photos of the camera...
The pictures remind me of Michael's article of a few years ago explaining that photographers have noses.
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 02:30:43 pm »

Meh, I'm not sure if that is true or not. And I doubt either of us are in a position to truly know, unless you sit in the Sigma boardroom.

My point was, if they want to grow market share, they need to get their product to work more seamlessly in the majority of workflows. If they are happy with their niche, why make an adapter for your glass to also work on E mount?

From the interviews I have seen they highly regard their employees more like older more traditional Japanese companies so they "value" their work greatly and having someone else work on a project or to "perfect" what they think they already do well, kind of goes against their grain. This is all pure speculation on my part. I think they think their workflow is adequate and just needs tweaking.
They have also stated in the interviews, that they are doing the camera because it interests them and they are not counting on them to be big income, their lenses are for that and they have certainly improved their lenses. The camera are more of side project just to do it.

Alan
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Alan Smallbone
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Manoli

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 02:47:11 pm »

I've heard of (A)rt lenses but what's the SGV series ?

Quote
Designed to take advantage of SGV lenses with great IQ

sd Quattro H
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powerslave12r

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 03:28:28 pm »

Thanks for your impressions. I am nideed tempted by the DP0Q more than the others.

Thanks for the walk-through on Sigma processing but I do own the DP2M and I'm painfully aware of the Merrill generation's shortcomings.

Hopefully the SDQ/h address the shortcomings mentioned by you for the Quattro generation.

Yes I think we have crossed paths. I also have a DP3M. The Quattro files do not have that huge microcontrast that the Merrills have but I think in most cases you can get that look with a little bit of processing. I got the Sigmas because of the resolving, it really does great when it is well exposed. I think you really need to be careful on things like the focus point and stability when shooting. I have kind of lusted after the Dp0Q because of the lens and it is a wider angle than the DP2Q I have, and especially since the price has dropped, the Quattros are $700 at B&H. The Quattros are much faster shooting than the Merrills, battery lasts longer and ISO performance is better. With the Quattro I can get away with 1600ISO for a monochrome image and work with color at up to 800 if carefully exposed. The extra battery life is great, so much better than the Merrill. The funky design too some getting used to on the Quattros, the LVF viewfinder attachment is a must have for the Quattros, especially outdoors.

I have not shot the Sonys so hard for me to compare them, not really interested in the Sony lineup and the earlier Sonys I never liked the interface. I will probably rent the new Sigma when it comes out with a lens and give it try. It would be nice if Sigma did the try before you buy with the new cameras like they did with the DP2Q, I did that and that is what got me to buy it.

To me the Quattro is a supplemental camera, it is great for certain shots and the results when it is "on" are fantastic and print big, the shots above have great resolution, the small individual flowers in the front are nice and sharp as are the details on the oak tree silhouette on the hill on the ridge line. Hard to get that resolution with other cameras though certainly doable but not for the price point of the Q. The Quattro is also easy to carry, I will sometimes go back to using a photo vest when out shooting and throw the Quattro in a pocket and have the Fuji around my neck with a lens or two in pockets and that is great fun. So for the price point as a supplemental camera the Quattro is great.
The thing with the new ILC from Sigma is it is buying into a whole new system and I am little more hesitant to do that, just because of overall cost, size and having to buy new heavier lenses. I have gotten so used to the Fuji and great lenses in a lightweight package. So it may tempt me more to the DP0Q now with the lower costs and have the two different focal lengths and save a ton of money.
If you can rent one and try it, it does have a learning curve exposure wise and getting used to the handling. SPP is free to download to process the files. although the new firmware and SPP have improved the exposure and color and looks like it also reduced the noise levels, but I have not tested it thoroughly it only came out late last week.
The Sigma crowd on forums is kind of unique they are obsessed with pixel peeping and micro contrast, I get it but that is not all there is to photography.

Alan
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 03:48:34 pm »

They have also stated in the interviews, that they are doing the camera because it interests them

because Yamaki is not a hired for stock options manager in a public company...
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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 04:37:40 pm »

Tempting as a former DP2m and current DP2q owner, but I am probably not going to buy Sigma mount lenses just for this camera.

I already own the 20 and 35mm f1.4 in F mount...

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Smallbone

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Re: Sigma Enters Mirrorless: The Sigma SD Quattro
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2016, 04:38:45 pm »

because Yamaki is not a hired for stock options manager in a public company...

It was also a dream of his father's to be a camera manufacturer.....

Alan
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