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Author Topic: Tilt/shift lenses  (Read 18328 times)

picnic

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Tilt/shift lenses
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2006, 04:24:40 pm »

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Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)?  The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some. 

Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?

Thanks,
Tim
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Here's a good link for stitching T/S
[a href=\"http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html]http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html[/url]  and another   Scroll down to panoramas
http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/tilt-shift
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2006, 05:34:56 pm »

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Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?

Thanks,
Tim
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Yes, definitely -- And I have posted a fairly detailed tutorial on flat-stitching here: [a href=\"http://www.getdpi.com/stitch.html]http://www.getdpi.com/stitch.html[/url]

Cheers,
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Jack
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Peter Jon White

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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2006, 07:10:44 pm »

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Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)?  The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some. 

Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?

Thanks,
Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All four lenses work for landscapes. We small format shooters have gotten used to shooting landscapes with short focal length lenses because you need depth of field to get everything sharp if you can't tilt the lens or film plane. But with the tilt/shift lenses you can tilt, duh, so any lens that tilts, regardless of focal length can be used for landscapes. I can get everything on a plane from about 5 feet to infinty in sharp focus at f/2.8 with the 90mm TS-E.

Landscapes aren't just for wide-angles any more.
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Ray

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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2006, 08:59:45 pm »

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I can get everything on a plane from about 5 feet to infinty in sharp focus at f/2.8 with the 90mm TS-E.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The problem is, what about stuff that's not on that plane? Landscapes are 3-dimensional, with stuff sticking out all over the place. The grass at your feet might be amazingly sharp, as well as the distant hills, but that branch upper left corner, which you want in the image to frame the picture, is totally fuzzy.
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TBoone

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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2006, 09:06:46 pm »

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All four lenses work for landscapes . . . Landscapes aren't just for wide-angles any more.
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Point well taken, Peter.  Let me ask it this way:  If you could only have one of the four lenses for landscapes, which would it be and why?

And, thanks of the links to the stitching articles.  Good stuff!

Tim
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David Anderson

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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2006, 09:08:19 pm »

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The problem is, what about stuff that's not on that plane? Landscapes are 3-dimensional, with stuff sticking out all over the place. The grass at your feet might be amazingly sharp, as well as the distant hills, but that branch upper left corner, which you want in the image to frame the picture, is totally fuzzy.
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That would be art ?  
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Ray

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« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2006, 09:29:31 pm »

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That would be art ? 
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Good point!    I might try the following to see if anyone notices, when I pass the print around. I'll use f3.5 with my 24/TS-E, to exaggerate the effect. I'll get some bright flowers about 5 ft away totally in focus. The base of a tree trunk about 20 ft away will also be sharp and in focus, gradually merging into total fuzziness towards the top. A tree branch close-by in the left corner will be razor sharp, but another branch in the right corner, slightly further away, will be very unsharp. The ridge on the other side of the valley will also be impressively sharp, but the farm houses lower down the valley will be fuzzy blobs. This could be a masterpiece   .
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madmanchan

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« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2006, 11:42:56 pm »

Or you could take multiple exposures focused at different planes and combine them later using software such as Helicon Focus or CombineZ into a single exposure.

Similar to taking multiple exposures with varying exposure settings to a capture a scene whose dynamic range exceeds the sensor's capabilities and combining the exposures later -- just a different problem.

Don't get me wrong -- lens tilts are great, and I'm all for getting things right in-camera and minimizing extra time in post-processing.  But there are situations where the tilts aren't enough, and in those cases you may want to consider the merging technique described above.

Eric
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Eric Chan

Peter Jon White

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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2006, 06:51:39 pm »

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The problem is, what about stuff that's not on that plane? Landscapes are 3-dimensional, with stuff sticking out all over the place. The grass at your feet might be amazingly sharp, as well as the distant hills, but that branch upper left corner, which you want in the image to frame the picture, is totally fuzzy.
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It will be out of focus, of course. Tilting a lens isn't magic. It just tilts the plane of focus, it doesn't make the plane of focus wider. It doesn't increase depth of field.

You could just as well ask someone shooting with a Sinar or Wisner 8x10 why he bothers using a camera with moveable standards. People have been using camera movements for as long as people have been making photographs. We don't stop using movements simply because in some situations we can't get enough depth of field.

Same is true for lenses without tilt. Sometimes there isn't enough depth of field, even in a situation where tilting would have no effect. Sometimes you just can't get the shot you want.
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Peter Jon White

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« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2006, 06:58:18 pm »

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Point well taken, Peter.  Let me ask it this way:  If you could only have one of the four lenses for landscapes, which would it be and why?

And, thanks of the links to the stitching articles.  Good stuff!

Tim
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I would take the 45 if I could only have one. For the 35mm format, the 45mm is the closest to the "normal" focal length. It's the focal length that I'm more likely to use than any other single focal length.

I'll bet if I had had one lens, a zoom that went from 15mm (my shortest lens) to 500mm (my longest) and made a plot by focal length of every shot I've made in my 40 years of photography with that one lens, the plot would peak at around 40-50mm.

And I'd wager that if you did the same thing with 100,000 photographers and combined all the data, you'd get the same plot.

So for me, and I suspect that for most shooters, if you could have only one lens, the 45 would be the most useful. I'm just an average photog. ;-)
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spotmeter

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« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2006, 11:19:07 pm »

Quote from: TBoone,May 12 2006, 06:22 PM
Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)?  The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some.  

I have a 24mm TSE which was very soft all over.  I sent it to Canon for repair. They replaced the helical focussing mechanism and tightened the rear element. When I got it back, I tested it again and it is still soft. I will send it back to Canon again, this time with samples. It is much softer than my Canon 17-40 zoom.

While it was at Canon, I purchased a 45mm TSE for an upcoming shoot. I had heard good things about this lens. It was terrible in the corners completely unshifted and untilted. I returned it for another copy, which I will receive in a week or so.  If the new copy is not better, I will buy a tilt-shift adapter for my Hasselblad lenses.  When I tested my 50mm with a Hasselblad-EOS adapter, it was sharp all over.
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Ray

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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2006, 05:15:02 am »

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You could just as well ask someone shooting with a Sinar or Wisner 8x10 why he bothers using a camera with moveable standards. People have been using camera movements for as long as people have been making photographs. We don't stop using movements simply because in some situations we can't get enough depth of field.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65353\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not quite. Large format cameras have tilt and swing. They are not only more flexible with regard to adjustments of the plane of focus (skewing it to more closely match the lie of the land, for example) but it's much easier to see what precisely is in focus in what part of the image, with the aid of a magnifier.

The Canon TS-E lenses are limited to tilt in just one direction.This is why some people have tried the Hartblei Super Rotator on 35mm using an adaptor. Unfortunately, the Hartblei a lens which appears to be optimised for maximum sharpness between f16 and f22. In other words, it's as sharp at f22 as at f16 and sharper at f22 than at f8.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 05:18:44 am by Ray »
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Peter Jon White

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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2006, 07:45:32 am »

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Not quite. Large format cameras have tilt and swing. They are not only more flexible with regard to adjustments of the plane of focus (skewing it to more closely match the lie of the land, for example) but it's much easier to see what precisely is in focus in what part of the image, with the aid of a magnifier.

The Canon TS-E lenses are limited to tilt in just one direction.This is why some people have tried the Hartblei Super Rotator on 35mm using an adaptor. Unfortunately, the Hartblei a lens which appears to be optimised for maximum sharpness between f16 and f22. In other words, it's as sharp at f22 as at f16 and sharper at f22 than at f8.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65393\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course they're more flexible. But in no way whatsoever can a large format camera be set up "to more closely match the lie of the land". And yes you can see focus better. That's true every time you increase format size. Medium format is easier to focus than 35mm, 4x5 is easier to focus than medium, 8x10 is easier to focus than 4x5.

Canon TS-E lenses are most certainly not "limited to tilt in just one direction". I have all four Canon lenses (I've had the FD 35 for over 20 years) and I can assure you that they can all be tilted through 360 degrees.
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picnic

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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2006, 09:51:36 am »

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Not quite. Large format cameras have tilt and swing. They are not only more flexible with regard to adjustments of the plane of focus (skewing it to more closely match the lie of the land, for example) but it's much easier to see what precisely is in focus in what part of the image, with the aid of a magnifier.

The Canon TS-E lenses are limited to tilt in just one direction.This is why some people have tried the Hartblei Super Rotator on 35mm using an adaptor. Unfortunately, the Hartblei a lens which appears to be optimised for maximum sharpness between f16 and f22. In other words, it's as sharp at f22 as at f16 and sharper at f22 than at f8.
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There is a Hartblei 35 f/2.8 tilt/swing/rotator available now for 35mm.  Have you looked into that?  Here is a link to one user's review
[a href=\"http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/367685]http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/367685[/url]
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picnic

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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2006, 09:56:37 am »

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Or you could take multiple exposures focused at different planes and combine them later using software such as Helicon Focus or CombineZ into a single exposure.

Similar to taking multiple exposures with varying exposure settings to a capture a scene whose dynamic range exceeds the sensor's capabilities and combining the exposures later -- just a different problem.

snip
Eric
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Thanks for those suggestions.  I've tried that myself several times but was unaware of any software that was available to help (but hadn't searched either.  I haven't found a good link for the CombineZ though, just CombineZ5, I believe).

Diane.
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tived

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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2006, 12:24:20 pm »

I really like my 45mm TS-E for its shallow DOF it offers in a creative way. I think they are great and would love to have the two other once. I also use mine with the 1.4x and 2x extender and they work great!

Hope you will enjoy them too

Henrik

PS: have a look at Mark Tuckers site www.marktucker.com love the images he makes! actually it was from looking at his images that I decided to get one myself.
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CUclimber

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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2006, 12:30:55 pm »

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I'm not sure if you can rent a TS-E lens in Olso but it may well be the best way to see if you like working with this type of lenses. Try to get one for a weekend!

This brings up a question I've had for a while: there's a local store where I can rent the TS-E lenses for $25/day.  I have literally zero experience with tilts and shifts and I'd love to try it out.  What reading should I do to get the most out of a day's shooting with one?  I'm using a 20D body, so would the 90mm or 24mm one be better to start out with (they don't carry the 45mm)?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 12:31:19 pm by CUclimber »
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tived

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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2006, 12:38:52 pm »

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This brings up a question I've had for a while: there's a local store where I can rent the TS-E lenses for $25/day.  I have literally zero experience with tilts and shifts and I'd love to try it out.  What reading should I do to get the most out of a day's shooting with one?  I'm using a 20D body, so would the 90mm or 24mm one be better to start out with (they don't carry the 45mm)?
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Just take it out and play! use it to the extreemes.    you will have loads of fun
i'd probably get the 24 if you are using a 20D, however the 90mm is really nice for macro!

Henrik
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picnic

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« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2006, 02:02:19 pm »

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This brings up a question I've had for a while: there's a local store where I can rent the TS-E lenses for $25/day.  I have literally zero experience with tilts and shifts and I'd love to try it out.  What reading should I do to get the most out of a day's shooting with one?  I'm using a 20D body, so would the 90mm or 24mm one be better to start out with (they don't carry the 45mm)?
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Just a thought---but Rentglass, where I rented the 24 T/S I'm using now is quite reasonable for a week--I rented for 2 weeks so its about $85 including insured shipping back and forth and the shipping time doesn't count towards the rental time.  The lens came well packed, good condition--and I had already done a lot of research and reading.   Most other places I checked were in $35/day range.

Diane
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Ray

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« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2006, 10:54:50 pm »

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Canon TS-E lenses are most certainly not "limited to tilt in just one direction".

Peter,
I expressed that badly, didn't I. Of course I meant in one direction (or along one axis) in relation to the direction of the shift. For example, if I wanted to use shift for perspective control of a tall building and at the same time use a bit of tilt to get the flower bed in the foreground tack sharp, I wouldn't be able to do it the way my lenses are set up. If I took the lenses back to Canon to get them to orient the two movements along the same axis, then in a similar situation, but instead of flower beds in the foreground, say an interesting structure close-by on my left, I would not be able to get that structure on the left tack sharp through use of tilt.

It's a limiting factor, but not all that serious perhaps.

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That's true every time you increase format size. Medium format is easier to focus than 35mm, 4x5 is easier to focus than medium, 8x10 is easier to focus than 4x5.

What should also be mentioned is that every time you increase format there is a DoF penalty (in relation to the same f stop, in case you misunderstand me) which creates a greater need for tilt movements. For example, I find with my 5D, in situations where I want maximum DoF, I can use f16 with very minimal loss of over all sharpness. The increased DoF outweighs any marginal resolution loss. To get the same DoF with 8x10 format (in relation to picture height) I would need to use f128. By doing so, I would be compromising resolution so greatly, it is doubtful such a shot would offer any resolution advantage over a 5D image at f16.

My point in general is, not only is it more difficult to get the benefits of tilt with 35mm TS-E lenses, as a result of focussing difficulties and other limitations, but the need for the 'apparent' increase in DoF with the smaller format is less. The benefits are less and the trouble is greater.

Okay! Someone prove me wrong and post some dazzling macro shots that have benefited greatly from tilt with the TS-E 90mm   .
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 11:07:32 pm by Ray »
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