Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Ronny Nilsen on May 08, 2006, 07:30:23 am
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I'm reading First Light by Joe Cornish theese days and drooling over the pictures .
Joe is using a view camera that have tilt/shift capabilities and use that capability in many of the photographs, and I'm wondering if I migth need that capability.
I have Canon equipment, and Canon have 24,45 and 90 mm TS lenses, but I haven't seen much of them lately, so I'm wondring if they are still considered to be good lenses? I have read the review by Michael on this site, but it was written a few years ago, and I don't see many photos taken with theese lenses and is wondering if it will be worth it tou buy one of theese lenses?
Is anybody using them on todays DSLRs?
Buying a view-camera is n ot an option.
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I'm reading First Light by Joe Cornish theese days and drooling over the pictures .
A beautiful book indeed and I can also recommand Scotland's Coast: A Photographer's Journey from Joe Cornish.
Joe is using a view camera that have tilt/shift capabilities and use that capability in many of the photographs, and I'm wondering if I migth need that capability.
I have Canon equipment, and Canon have 24,45 and 90 mm TS lenses, but I haven't seen much of them lately, so I'm wondring if they are still considered to be good lenses? I have read the review by Michael on this site, but it was written a few years ago, and I don't see many photos taken with theese lenses and is wondering if it will be worth it tou buy one of theese lenses?
Is anybody using them on todays DSLRs?
Buying a view-camera is n ot an option.
Yes, I use the 24mm which is not outstanding. It's a good lens and its tilt & shift capabilites are the only reasons I have this lens in my "collection". On the other hand, the 90mm is outstanding! It is sharp and can be used without much degradation with expanders (both 1.4x and 2x). It is also very usefull for macro if you pair it with extension tubes. I have no experience with the 45mm.
My only real "issue" with these lenses is that focusing can be tough in low light throught the relatively small viewfinder (1D type bodies) - it can also indicate that my eyes are not what they're cracked up to be
You can read an article on DOP (here (http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_42/essay.html)) website. The Video Journal has also reviewed the 24mm but I can't remember the issue #.
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the 90 is an excellent lens. I would say that at least 90% of my 1dsmk2 shots are with that lens.
jim
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I would add that the 24mm is my least used lens and it would be the first to go if I needed the cash!
But it might be useful for Joe Cornish-like photography?
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This is one my my most used lenses for near-far landscapes. Mine is tack sharp. With the Canon 5D it does exhibit some chromatic aberration which is easily removed in DxO Optics or Adobe Camera Raw.
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I'm not sure if you can rent a TS-E lens in Olso but it may well be the best way to see if you like working with this type of lenses. Try to get one for a weekend!
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Tanks to all for the input!
The DOP article was interesting. I guess the best solution is to try and rent or loan a lens and try it a weekend to se if it's somthing I feel I will find useful for my photography.
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Tanks to all for the input!
The DOP article was interesting. I guess the best solution is to try and rent or loan a lens and try it a weekend to se if it's somthing I feel I will find useful for my photography.
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I use all four Canon tilt/shift lenses on my 5D. They all work very well. Sure the 24mm isn't as sharp as the others. How could it be? It's an extreme wide angle lens.
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I use all four Canon tilt/shift lenses on my 5D. They all work very well. Sure the 24mm isn't as sharp as the others. How could it be? It's an extreme wide angle lens.
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Four? I thought there were three TS-E lenses: 24, 45, and 90. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be delighted to know if there is another ...
Eric
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I have the 24 and 90.
The 24 could be a bit sharper, but IMO it's good enough for editorial work.
The 90 is awesome, sharp as a tack and the close focus makes it a great portrait lens.
Having shifts on a 35mm DSLR is what makes them usefull..
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The 4th one ,is the Canon FD TS 2.8/35.
I did convert 3 of them last year to an EOS mount with great success!
The sharpness was similar to the CZ PC Distagon 35.
However with maximum shift ,the CZ wins.
Cheers,
Willem.
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I'm not sure if you can rent a TS-E lens in Olso but it may well be the best way to see if you like working with this type of lenses. Try to get one for a weekend!
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I'm doing just that--I have the 24 T/S rented for 2 weeks--due here Saturday-- from Rentglass (the least expensive rental I was able to find for a longer period in the US--that could be shipped to me). I think I would have preferred the 45 but they don't have one available. If I find that I want to pursue it, I will rent a 45 for several days--and decide whether to purchase one--or not.
I also read in one review that Canon tele extenders, though not documented by Canon, do work well with the T/S lens. If so, my 1.4x should allow me to shoot at about 34mm also (but I'm assuming with some degradation of the IQ).
Diane
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...I also read in one review that Canon tele extenders, though not documented by Canon, do work well with the T/S lens. If so, my 1.4x should allow me to shoot at about 34mm also (but I'm assuming with some degradation of the IQ).
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On the 90, the extenders work very well. On the other hand, on the 24, even the 1.4x produces a very noticeable degradation. I may have a bad sample but I've heard similar comments from others.
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I wouldn't even contemplate using the extenders.
Not for serious architecture images anyway.
The distortion on the 24 and 45 is already noticeable and the extender will make it worse.
Cheers,
Willem.
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The Canon extenders were designed specifically for the longer L series lenses.
That's the reason why they are off white,basically to match the white L lens.
Cheers,
Willem.
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The 4th one ,is the Canon FD TS 2.8/35.
I did convert 3 of them last year to an EOS mount with great success!
The sharpness was similar to the CZ PC Distagon 35.
However with maximum shift ,the CZ wins.
Cheers,
Willem.
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The Distagon, however, doesn't tilt. And what good is a lens that doesn't tilt? ;-)
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One advantage of the 24 TS-E is its relative lack of vignetting, distortion and corner resolution-fall-off with FF 35mm, when used as a standard 24mm without shift.
However, I wonder about the usefulness of shift for architectural perspective control when we have perspective control (as well as skew and distort) in Photoshop. It seems that 'shift' is perhaps more useful for seamless stitching of close-by subjects with negligible parallax errors.
Tilt could be useful for extending 'apparent' DoF (if you can get it right, which is not all that easy), but f16 with a 24mm lens can produce very good DoF with little loss of absolute resolution (on the 5D, anyway).
I have the 24/TS-E as well as the 90/TS-E. For some reason, I don't use them as often as I should. It might be because they are fairly heavy lenses. It might be because I'm not keen on fiddling around with twiddly knobs and spending more time on technical matters than compositional matters and losing opportunities of the moment. It might be because they are primes, and I simply find zooms more useful.
When purchasing a lens, you should consider carefully the likely usage, especially if money is an issue. It's easy to become enamoured of the possibilities and potential of a lens, then find in practice it's under-utilized.
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A message for Peter!
You're the one that purchased my converted TS 35 !
Glad you like it!
Cheers,
Willem.
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I would like to say thanks to all for the input on this!
Based on this discussion and some thinking about what I want and need, I have now purchased the 90 TS-E lens.
I also bought the Extension Tube EF25II to try some macro photography with it. Hopefulle I will get some time to test it in the comming month, the next week is completely filled.
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Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)? The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some.
Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?
Thanks,
Tim
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Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)? The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some.
Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?
Thanks,
Tim
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Here's a good link for stitching T/S
[a href=\"http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html]http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_58/essay.html[/url] and another Scroll down to panoramas
http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/tilt-shift (http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/tilt-shift)
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Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?
Thanks,
Tim
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Yes, definitely -- And I have posted a fairly detailed tutorial on flat-stitching here: [a href=\"http://www.getdpi.com/stitch.html]http://www.getdpi.com/stitch.html[/url]
Cheers,
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Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)? The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some.
Also, is it possible to stitch shots taken with a t/s lens?
Thanks,
Tim
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All four lenses work for landscapes. We small format shooters have gotten used to shooting landscapes with short focal length lenses because you need depth of field to get everything sharp if you can't tilt the lens or film plane. But with the tilt/shift lenses you can tilt, duh, so any lens that tilts, regardless of focal length can be used for landscapes. I can get everything on a plane from about 5 feet to infinty in sharp focus at f/2.8 with the 90mm TS-E.
Landscapes aren't just for wide-angles any more.
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I can get everything on a plane from about 5 feet to infinty in sharp focus at f/2.8 with the 90mm TS-E.
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The problem is, what about stuff that's not on that plane? Landscapes are 3-dimensional, with stuff sticking out all over the place. The grass at your feet might be amazingly sharp, as well as the distant hills, but that branch upper left corner, which you want in the image to frame the picture, is totally fuzzy.
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All four lenses work for landscapes . . . Landscapes aren't just for wide-angles any more.
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Point well taken, Peter. Let me ask it this way: If you could only have one of the four lenses for landscapes, which would it be and why?
And, thanks of the links to the stitching articles. Good stuff!
Tim
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The problem is, what about stuff that's not on that plane? Landscapes are 3-dimensional, with stuff sticking out all over the place. The grass at your feet might be amazingly sharp, as well as the distant hills, but that branch upper left corner, which you want in the image to frame the picture, is totally fuzzy.
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That would be art ?
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That would be art ?
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Good point! I might try the following to see if anyone notices, when I pass the print around. I'll use f3.5 with my 24/TS-E, to exaggerate the effect. I'll get some bright flowers about 5 ft away totally in focus. The base of a tree trunk about 20 ft away will also be sharp and in focus, gradually merging into total fuzziness towards the top. A tree branch close-by in the left corner will be razor sharp, but another branch in the right corner, slightly further away, will be very unsharp. The ridge on the other side of the valley will also be impressively sharp, but the farm houses lower down the valley will be fuzzy blobs. This could be a masterpiece .
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Or you could take multiple exposures focused at different planes and combine them later using software such as Helicon Focus or CombineZ into a single exposure.
Similar to taking multiple exposures with varying exposure settings to a capture a scene whose dynamic range exceeds the sensor's capabilities and combining the exposures later -- just a different problem.
Don't get me wrong -- lens tilts are great, and I'm all for getting things right in-camera and minimizing extra time in post-processing. But there are situations where the tilts aren't enough, and in those cases you may want to consider the merging technique described above.
Eric
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The problem is, what about stuff that's not on that plane? Landscapes are 3-dimensional, with stuff sticking out all over the place. The grass at your feet might be amazingly sharp, as well as the distant hills, but that branch upper left corner, which you want in the image to frame the picture, is totally fuzzy.
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It will be out of focus, of course. Tilting a lens isn't magic. It just tilts the plane of focus, it doesn't make the plane of focus wider. It doesn't increase depth of field.
You could just as well ask someone shooting with a Sinar or Wisner 8x10 why he bothers using a camera with moveable standards. People have been using camera movements for as long as people have been making photographs. We don't stop using movements simply because in some situations we can't get enough depth of field.
Same is true for lenses without tilt. Sometimes there isn't enough depth of field, even in a situation where tilting would have no effect. Sometimes you just can't get the shot you want.
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Point well taken, Peter. Let me ask it this way: If you could only have one of the four lenses for landscapes, which would it be and why?
And, thanks of the links to the stitching articles. Good stuff!
Tim
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I would take the 45 if I could only have one. For the 35mm format, the 45mm is the closest to the "normal" focal length. It's the focal length that I'm more likely to use than any other single focal length.
I'll bet if I had had one lens, a zoom that went from 15mm (my shortest lens) to 500mm (my longest) and made a plot by focal length of every shot I've made in my 40 years of photography with that one lens, the plot would peak at around 40-50mm.
And I'd wager that if you did the same thing with 100,000 photographers and combined all the data, you'd get the same plot.
So for me, and I suspect that for most shooters, if you could have only one lens, the 45 would be the most useful. I'm just an average photog. ;-)
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Of the three t/s lenses Canon has available, which would you choose for landscape work (to bring in close foreground objects)? The 24 seems like a natural, but the comments regarding its relative lack of sharpness concern me some.
I have a 24mm TSE which was very soft all over. I sent it to Canon for repair. They replaced the helical focussing mechanism and tightened the rear element. When I got it back, I tested it again and it is still soft. I will send it back to Canon again, this time with samples. It is much softer than my Canon 17-40 zoom.
While it was at Canon, I purchased a 45mm TSE for an upcoming shoot. I had heard good things about this lens. It was terrible in the corners completely unshifted and untilted. I returned it for another copy, which I will receive in a week or so. If the new copy is not better, I will buy a tilt-shift adapter for my Hasselblad lenses. When I tested my 50mm with a Hasselblad-EOS adapter, it was sharp all over.
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You could just as well ask someone shooting with a Sinar or Wisner 8x10 why he bothers using a camera with moveable standards. People have been using camera movements for as long as people have been making photographs. We don't stop using movements simply because in some situations we can't get enough depth of field.
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Not quite. Large format cameras have tilt and swing. They are not only more flexible with regard to adjustments of the plane of focus (skewing it to more closely match the lie of the land, for example) but it's much easier to see what precisely is in focus in what part of the image, with the aid of a magnifier.
The Canon TS-E lenses are limited to tilt in just one direction.This is why some people have tried the Hartblei Super Rotator on 35mm using an adaptor. Unfortunately, the Hartblei a lens which appears to be optimised for maximum sharpness between f16 and f22. In other words, it's as sharp at f22 as at f16 and sharper at f22 than at f8.
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Not quite. Large format cameras have tilt and swing. They are not only more flexible with regard to adjustments of the plane of focus (skewing it to more closely match the lie of the land, for example) but it's much easier to see what precisely is in focus in what part of the image, with the aid of a magnifier.
The Canon TS-E lenses are limited to tilt in just one direction.This is why some people have tried the Hartblei Super Rotator on 35mm using an adaptor. Unfortunately, the Hartblei a lens which appears to be optimised for maximum sharpness between f16 and f22. In other words, it's as sharp at f22 as at f16 and sharper at f22 than at f8.
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Of course they're more flexible. But in no way whatsoever can a large format camera be set up "to more closely match the lie of the land". And yes you can see focus better. That's true every time you increase format size. Medium format is easier to focus than 35mm, 4x5 is easier to focus than medium, 8x10 is easier to focus than 4x5.
Canon TS-E lenses are most certainly not "limited to tilt in just one direction". I have all four Canon lenses (I've had the FD 35 for over 20 years) and I can assure you that they can all be tilted through 360 degrees.
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Not quite. Large format cameras have tilt and swing. They are not only more flexible with regard to adjustments of the plane of focus (skewing it to more closely match the lie of the land, for example) but it's much easier to see what precisely is in focus in what part of the image, with the aid of a magnifier.
The Canon TS-E lenses are limited to tilt in just one direction.This is why some people have tried the Hartblei Super Rotator on 35mm using an adaptor. Unfortunately, the Hartblei a lens which appears to be optimised for maximum sharpness between f16 and f22. In other words, it's as sharp at f22 as at f16 and sharper at f22 than at f8.
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There is a Hartblei 35 f/2.8 tilt/swing/rotator available now for 35mm. Have you looked into that? Here is a link to one user's review
[a href=\"http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/367685]http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/367685[/url]
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Or you could take multiple exposures focused at different planes and combine them later using software such as Helicon Focus or CombineZ into a single exposure.
Similar to taking multiple exposures with varying exposure settings to a capture a scene whose dynamic range exceeds the sensor's capabilities and combining the exposures later -- just a different problem.
snip
Eric
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Thanks for those suggestions. I've tried that myself several times but was unaware of any software that was available to help (but hadn't searched either. I haven't found a good link for the CombineZ though, just CombineZ5, I believe).
Diane.
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I really like my 45mm TS-E for its shallow DOF it offers in a creative way. I think they are great and would love to have the two other once. I also use mine with the 1.4x and 2x extender and they work great!
Hope you will enjoy them too
Henrik
PS: have a look at Mark Tuckers site www.marktucker.com love the images he makes! actually it was from looking at his images that I decided to get one myself.
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I'm not sure if you can rent a TS-E lens in Olso but it may well be the best way to see if you like working with this type of lenses. Try to get one for a weekend!
This brings up a question I've had for a while: there's a local store where I can rent the TS-E lenses for $25/day. I have literally zero experience with tilts and shifts and I'd love to try it out. What reading should I do to get the most out of a day's shooting with one? I'm using a 20D body, so would the 90mm or 24mm one be better to start out with (they don't carry the 45mm)?
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This brings up a question I've had for a while: there's a local store where I can rent the TS-E lenses for $25/day. I have literally zero experience with tilts and shifts and I'd love to try it out. What reading should I do to get the most out of a day's shooting with one? I'm using a 20D body, so would the 90mm or 24mm one be better to start out with (they don't carry the 45mm)?
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Just take it out and play! use it to the extreemes. you will have loads of fun
i'd probably get the 24 if you are using a 20D, however the 90mm is really nice for macro!
Henrik
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This brings up a question I've had for a while: there's a local store where I can rent the TS-E lenses for $25/day. I have literally zero experience with tilts and shifts and I'd love to try it out. What reading should I do to get the most out of a day's shooting with one? I'm using a 20D body, so would the 90mm or 24mm one be better to start out with (they don't carry the 45mm)?
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Just a thought---but Rentglass, where I rented the 24 T/S I'm using now is quite reasonable for a week--I rented for 2 weeks so its about $85 including insured shipping back and forth and the shipping time doesn't count towards the rental time. The lens came well packed, good condition--and I had already done a lot of research and reading. Most other places I checked were in $35/day range.
Diane
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Canon TS-E lenses are most certainly not "limited to tilt in just one direction".
Peter,
I expressed that badly, didn't I. Of course I meant in one direction (or along one axis) in relation to the direction of the shift. For example, if I wanted to use shift for perspective control of a tall building and at the same time use a bit of tilt to get the flower bed in the foreground tack sharp, I wouldn't be able to do it the way my lenses are set up. If I took the lenses back to Canon to get them to orient the two movements along the same axis, then in a similar situation, but instead of flower beds in the foreground, say an interesting structure close-by on my left, I would not be able to get that structure on the left tack sharp through use of tilt.
It's a limiting factor, but not all that serious perhaps.
That's true every time you increase format size. Medium format is easier to focus than 35mm, 4x5 is easier to focus than medium, 8x10 is easier to focus than 4x5.
What should also be mentioned is that every time you increase format there is a DoF penalty (in relation to the same f stop, in case you misunderstand me) which creates a greater need for tilt movements. For example, I find with my 5D, in situations where I want maximum DoF, I can use f16 with very minimal loss of over all sharpness. The increased DoF outweighs any marginal resolution loss. To get the same DoF with 8x10 format (in relation to picture height) I would need to use f128. By doing so, I would be compromising resolution so greatly, it is doubtful such a shot would offer any resolution advantage over a 5D image at f16.
My point in general is, not only is it more difficult to get the benefits of tilt with 35mm TS-E lenses, as a result of focussing difficulties and other limitations, but the need for the 'apparent' increase in DoF with the smaller format is less. The benefits are less and the trouble is greater.
Okay! Someone prove me wrong and post some dazzling macro shots that have benefited greatly from tilt with the TS-E 90mm .
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Okay! Someone prove me wrong and post some dazzling macro shots that have benefited greatly from tilt with the TS-E 90mm .
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Nothing dazzling but I do it all the time with my product work.