Will HP make a next-gen Z Series Printer?

[shadowblade]

Well, the exceptional thing about the HPs is really the ink, rather than the printer itself. The ink is super-long-lived on every medium, not just a few where Canon's Lucia EX matches it, and, for most purposes, has decent gamut and Dmax.

Sure, the printer itself is very nice in some ways (cheap, easily-changed heads and other parts, inbuilt spectro), not so great in others (handling of ultra-thick media), but, really, those are secondary to the inks. If push came to shove, I'd be just as happy running the inks through a Canon printer (would probably draw the line at Epson's clog-prone, no-backup-nozzle head though).

If they do come out with a new printer and line of inks, I can only hope that they're just as lightfast, if not more so, and sacrifice none of their longevity in order to boost their short-term saturation. Heavier pigment load or extra colours for greater Dmax and gamut would be very nice, but not if it comes at the expense of longevity. After all, if that's what you're after, Epson's already offering it in spades.

[deanwork]

Hp Vivera inks still lead all the others in dmax on matte media. I used to get 1.8 on Canson R Photographique before they changed the coating which lowered it to 1.74 right now. My Canon printer with that same paper is 1.66, and the old Ultrachrome HD was 1.64. On the Platine  and other fiber gloss media I don't notice a difference in dmax between the 8300 and the Z, but I'll measure it to see. Also after I spray the fiber gloss stuff with Hahnemuhle the dmax goes up.

I don't know why Canson changed their coating last year. My friends across the country have noticed it though so I measured it and they are right, it dropped. Epson Hot Press is a little better and probably Photorag too now. But it isn't a big deal to me on either printer. Other than the black point I don't see a change in the Photographique. Just received a roll of the Epson Legacy Fiber and so far the prints look exactly like the others with K7 but I'll measure the dmax on that too as well as the Epson Platine I just got.

john

Well, the exceptional thing about the HPs is really the ink, rather than the printer itself. The ink is super-long-lived on every medium, not just a few where Canon's Lucia EX matches it, and, for most purposes, has decent gamut and Dmax.

Sure, the printer itself is very nice in some ways (cheap, easily-changed heads and other parts, inbuilt spectro), not so great in others (handling of ultra-thick media), but, really, those are secondary to the inks. If push came to shove, I'd be just as happy running the inks through a Canon printer (would probably draw the line at Epson's clog-prone, no-backup-nozzle head though).

If they do come out with a new printer and line of inks, I can only hope that they're just as lightfast, if not more so, and sacrifice none of their longevity in order to boost their short-term saturation. Heavier pigment load or extra colours for greater Dmax and gamut would be very nice, but not if it comes at the expense of longevity. After all, if that's what you're after, Epson's already offering it in spades.

[shadowblade]

Hp Vivera inks still lead all the others in dmax on matte media. I used to get 1.8 on Canson R Photographique before they changed the coating which lowered it to 1.74 right now. My Canon printer with that same paper is 1.66, and the old Ultrachrome HD was 1.64. On the Platine  and other fiber gloss media I don't notice a difference in dmax between the 8300 and the Z, but I'll measure it to see. Also after I spray the fiber gloss stuff with Hahnemuhle the dmax goes up.

I don't know why Canson changed their coating last year. My friends across the country have noticed it though so I measured it and they are right, it dropped. Epson Hot Press is a little better and probably Photorag too now. But it isn't a big deal to me on either printer. Other than the black point I don't see a change in the Photographique. Just received a roll of the Epson Legacy Fiber and so far the prints look exactly like the others with K7 but I'll measure the dmax on that too as well as the Epson Platine I just got.

john

What sort of Dmax are you getting with Vivera ink when you apply a glossy coating (e.g. Timeless or Glamour) to a print made on matte paper? I've been using that method for some glossy or satin prints, since it gives you a far stronger, less flake-prone surface than a simple glossy print sprayed with a solvent-based protective spray.

Do you know whether the new Canson coating has better longevity than the old one? The old one was very resistant to flaking and cracking, and, if it also had better Dmax, the new one had better offer some sort of improvement...

[Mike Raub]

Given how long ago the Z3200 was designed I'm surprised that the price of a new unit seems to be quite a bit more than newer models from Canon and Epson. Perhaps Canon and Epson have moved manufacturing to China or other low wage areas and HP still has higher production costs.

[Mark Lindquist]

Given how long ago the Z3200 was designed I'm surprised that the price of a new unit seems to be quite a bit more than newer models from Canon and Epson. Perhaps Canon and Epson have moved manufacturing to China or other low wage areas and HP still has higher production costs.

Hmmmmm.  Do the New Canon and Epson printers have an embedded spectrophotometer?

If they are available, add that to the price and how does is stack up then?

If they don't have an optional ESP, then just add the cost of an i1 Pro system to the base model printers.

Maybe close?

 

[rdonson]

The new Epson SC P7000 offers a spectro option but unfortunately it doesn't offer all the features the HP Z printers have.

[Mark Lindquist]

The new Epson SC P7000 offers a spectro option but unfortunately it doesn't offer all the features the HP Z printers have.

Hey Ron,  good to see you here man - I remember the days when you had the Z3100.  Great machine.

Yeah, the SC P7000 has an option:

"24" SpectroProofer UVS for SureColor P7000

An optional high performance in-line spectrophotometer developed jointly with X-Rite. Provides automated color measurement directly on supported Epson SureColor P-series printers when driven by a supporting 3rd party workflow RIP. Features software selectable illuminates between M0, M1 and M2.

Part Number: SPECTRO24UVS

Sounds like an expensive option and not as integrated as the ESP in the Z3200ps printers.

I'm sure it's a great printer, but hey the Z3200 is the Z3200, LOL....

-Mark

[keithcooper]

The new Epson SC P7000 offers a spectro option but unfortunately it doesn't offer all the features the HP Z printers have.

When I was at The Photography Show in Birmingham on Tuesday, I asked someone from X-Rite about the one for the P7000 (since I was just finishing up my P7000 review) and why it couldn't be controlled by / used with i1 Profiler?

The 'best' suggestion was to use the Spectroproofer utility, create a text file and import it... Whilst it would be nice for it to be usable like an i1iSis, I guess that the number of them supplied, and the market they are aimed at makes such integration not worth developing. There is an SDK for RIP developers.

As to an update to the 3200... In the UK recently, HP had a marketing campaign aimed at photographers, which if you quickly read through might have given the (entirely unintentional I'm sure) impression that there was a new large format HP.  It was the same old 3200.  Just to be sure, I filled in the enquiry form and had a call back pretty soon - yes it was the same printer I'd looked at in 2009 and no, there was nothing new about it :-(

[Mark Lindquist]

As to an update to the 3200... In the UK recently, HP had a marketing campaign aimed at photographers, which if you quickly read through might have given the (entirely unintentional I'm sure) impression that there was a new large format HP.  It was the same old 3200.  Just to be sure, I filled in the enquiry form and had a call back pretty soon - yes it was the same printer I'd looked at in 2009 and no, there was nothing new about it :-(

Hi Keith,
Have you ever used a Z3200ps printer?  I understand nothing has changed since 2009, but then there is the old adage, as has been said,

"if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I believe this printer is so good that although there are some improvements I'd like to see, if HP would continue to manufacture it for a good while longer, I'd be happy, and so would, I'm sure, many others.  It would be interesting to see what a new printer would bring in the way of changes, but I'd worry that the best things about the printer might be fiddled with....

If you have never used the Z series printers, I urge you to try them. They might surprise you.

Those beautiful architectural images you do would be stunning printed on a Z Series 3200ps 44".

-Mark

[shadowblade]

The current model's already very good, but, given eight years of refinements and seeing what's been done the last few years by other companies, it wouldn't be hard to come up with an even better printer for photo lab purposes. Although most of them would really be refinements or changes to the chassis - the core components (the inks, ink supply system and print heads) are very solid.

- Different feed system to get rid of pizza wheel/roller marks
- Wider platen gap for thicker media
- Horizontal feed path to allow flatbed function for rigid media
- A greater variety of widths available (17", 24", 36" and 44" would be great)

But I wouldn't want any of that at the expense of ink permanence and easily-replaceable/non-clogging print heads - the two biggest pluses of the Z3200. No matter what new features they introduce in a new model, if they changed either of those two things, it wouldn't be anywhere near as attractive as the current model.

Although I wouldn't mind an ultimate model with even more inks for the greatest possible gamut - a stronger green, plus a violet and a brown (since these are usually the saturated colours hardest to do well, plus vivid greens and brown are very common in nature).

[Mark Lindquist]

The current model's already very good, but, given eight years of refinements and seeing what's been done the last few years by other companies, it wouldn't be hard to come up with an even better printer for photo lab purposes. Although most of them would really be refinements or changes to the chassis - the core components (the inks, ink supply system and print heads) are very solid.

- Different feed system to get rid of pizza wheel/roller marks
- Wider platen gap for thicker media
- Horizontal feed path to allow flatbed function for rigid media
- A greater variety of widths available (17", 24", 36" and 44" would be great)

But I wouldn't want any of that at the expense of ink permanence and easily-replaceable/non-clogging print heads - the two biggest pluses of the Z3200. No matter what new features they introduce in a new model, if they changed either of those two things, it wouldn't be anywhere near as attractive as the current model.

Although I wouldn't mind an ultimate model with even more inks for the greatest possible gamut - a stronger green, plus a violet and a brown (since these are usually the saturated colours hardest to do well, plus vivid greens and brown are very common in nature).

I think the trend is to be doing more with less ink unfortunately.  Although I wouldn't want to have to deal with 15-16 ink cartridges - 12 is hard enough to keep up with.  I concur about the inks and printheads, they are the two biggest plusses.

I would love to have a cassette tray for sizes up to 17x22 that plugged in to the front of the printer.  Doubt that will happen, but it could from the back with some re-engineering.

If they came out with the same model in 17x22 with same inks and ESP and printheads, micro drop technology, etc., I'd buy it.

That is a segment of the market that would be great for HP IMHO.  Being able to load a full box of paper into a cassette and then print out a portfolio would be fantastic.  For 13x19 and 17x22, I prefer sheets that are uniform and don't have to be decurled.  Takes a long time to load them individually.

The Epson 4800 Pro is a fantastic printer in that regard.  Sheet or roll and it has a cassette tray.  And it has free clogs too...

-Mark



 

[shadowblade]

There are plenty of solvent printers out there which run 16 inks - four sets of CMYK. Good for high-speed commercial sign printing, not much use for photography or fine art. If they ran sixteen different inks, including extra colours and light inks...

If you wanted to get a wider gamut with fewer inks, you'd need to make them much more concentrated - probably so much so that you'd need a ly, and possibly a llm and llc as well. It's probably easier to use slightly less concentrated inks in more colours...

[Mark Lindquist]

There are plenty of solvent printers out there which run 16 inks - four sets of CMYK. Good for high-speed commercial sign printing, not much use for photography or fine art. If they ran sixteen different inks, including extra colours and light inks...

If you wanted to get a wider gamut with fewer inks, you'd need to make them much more concentrated - probably so much so that you'd need a ly, and possibly a llm and llc as well. It's probably easier to use slightly less concentrated inks in more colours...

I can't see HP doing a fine art printer requiring those kinds of modular pressure valves.  Again, I'd rather they not fiddle with the ink set, unless it is to improve certain inks like they did with the red of the 3100 becoming chromata red of the 3200.  It doesn't matter to me if the Z3200 remains anachronistic.  I prefer it that way. But we'll see what HP has in mind for the future eventually.

[shadowblade]

We're expecting a visit to our studios next month, so I may (not for sure) be able to tell you more about what's going on.

I can say that the Barcelona team is, apparently, alive and well, however.

Stay tuned, right?

-Mark

Any news on further progress by HP?

[Mark Lindquist]

Any news on further progress by HP?

Flying from Barcelona to my studio in Florida this coming Tuesday, then flying back on Wednesday,
We'll have a good day long meeting.

Very much looking forward to it.

[shadowblade]

Flying from Barcelona to my studio in Florida this coming Tuesday, then flying back on Wednesday,
We'll have a good day long meeting.

Very much looking forward to it.

So... any good news?

[Mark Lindquist]

So... any good news?

Yes, but I still can't give details.  We had a great day - I just got back from dropping him off at the airport to catch his flight back to Barcelona.  He's bringing 20 prints back with him.  Really, it's HP's position and responsibility to make statements, not mine.  I can say that they are extremely proud of their accomplishment with the Z Series printers, and they've been highly involved with other printers for the commercial market and have been concentrating in other areas which is why we haven't seen or heard much from them.  It remains to be seen what they do going forward. 

I had a lot of suggestions and he had a lot of questions.  We had breakfast at 7:30 AM, in the studio, then we did a studio tour, throughout our 15,000 sq. ft facility, then concentrated on looking at my work.  We looked at about 150 prints, 30+ canvases and several dye sub prints on aluminum.  We talked a lot about longevity of  papers, archival storage, and many many topics I can't discuss.  I can say that in all probability, in the future, we will most likely be pleased.  I'm sorry I can't say more, like I said, it is up to HP to make announcements.  It was a fantastic visit, and we were honored to have him here for a day at Art Camp (what we call our studio).

That's about all I can say.  There were no NDA's, just a gentlemen's agreement and I intend on keeping it.

Mark 

[shadowblade]

Yes, but I still can't give details.  We had a great day - I just got back from dropping him off at the airport to catch his flight back to Barcelona.  He's bringing 20 prints back with him.  Really, it's HP's position and responsibility to make statements, not mine.  I can say that they are extremely proud of their accomplishment with the Z Series printers, and they've been highly involved with other printers for the commercial market and have been concentrating in other areas which is why we haven't seen or heard much from them.  It remains to be seen what they do going forward. 

I had a lot of suggestions and he had a lot of questions.  We had breakfast at 7:30 AM, in the studio, then we did a studio tour, throughout our 15,000 sq. ft facility, then concentrated on looking at my work.  We looked at about 150 prints, 30+ canvases and several dye sub prints on aluminum.  We talked a lot about longevity of  papers, archival storage, and many many topics I can't discuss.  I can say that in all probability, in the future, we will most likely be pleased.  I'm sorry I can't say more, like I said, it is up to HP to make announcements.  It was a fantastic visit, and we were honored to have him here for a day at Art Camp (what we call our studio).

That's about all I can say.  There were no NDA's, just a gentlemen's agreement and I intend on keeping it.

Mark

Sounds good - hoping for a Z3300 at some stage, with the same, durable Vivera inks and idiot-proof head design. Or at least an announcement of some sort from HP - any news would give a big boost in confidence in HP's continuing involvement in the photography/art printer market.

[Mark Lindquist]

 

[tonywong]

I would be sorely tempted if a Z3300 came out, I have really liked my Z3100s (24 and 44).