Ergonomics: Canon, Nikon, or Sony?

I prefer Canon

I prefer Nikon

I prefer Sony

[NancyP]

One handed white balance may be very useful if you are shooting jpgs for rapid turnaround time or other reason. I just leave my Canon on auto-WB and shoot in RAW - I have time to process.

[John Koerner]

One handed white balance may be very useful if you are shooting jpgs for rapid turnaround time or other reason. I just leave my Canon on auto-WB and shoot in RAW - I have time to process.

Agreed.

I always leave AWB and shoot RAW.

However, 1-handed ISO selecting can be critical if you're shooting wildlife macro.
(One minute you're standing in the sun, where you can use base ISO and a very high shutter speed, the next minute you have to trail some critter off the path and under shaded canopy, where now you have to drop your shutter speed and increase your ISO. The ability to keep my eye on the view-finder in such cases, and one-handedly adjust my ISO with my right finger/thumb, is infinitely more ergonomically-convenient than is having to take my left off the lens, push a button with my left finger, scrolling-up the ISO with my right).

For the time being, I am just using auto-ISO with the D810, but I would prefer it if the Nikon had the Canon's ergonomic-friendliness in this regard.

[dwswager]

Agreed.

I always leave AWB and shoot RAW.

However, 1-handed ISO selecting can be critical if you're shooting wildlife macro.
(One minute you're standing in the sun, where you can use base ISO and a very high shutter speed, the next minute you have to trail some critter off the path and under shaded canopy, where now you have to drop your shutter speed and increase your ISO. The ability to keep my eye on the view-finder in such cases, and one-handedly adjust my ISO with my right finger/thumb, is infinitely more ergonomically-convenient than is having to take my left off the lens, push a button with my left finger, scrolling-up the ISO with my right).

For the time being, I am just using auto-ISO with the D810, but I would prefer it if the Nikon had the Canon's ergonomic-friendliness in this regard.

Ask and ye shall be saved!

On the D810 and other recent Nikons, you can assign the "preview" button and the "Fn" button to do various things.  One selection is to access the top item in your My Menu settings.  Hence, if you set ISO Sensitivity as the top item in your My Menu settings and then go to the f5 control settings and assign the Fn button to the top item in your My Menu, then you should have 1 handed operation.  Give it a shot.

[John Koerner]

Ask and ye shall be saved!
On the D810 and other recent Nikons, you can assign the "preview" button and the "Fn" button to do various things.  One selection is to access the top item in your My Menu settings.  Hence, if you set ISO Sensitivity as the top item in your My Menu settings and then go to the f5 control settings and assign the Fn button to the top item in your My Menu, then you should have 1 handed operation.  Give it a shot.

Interesting, and I will.

Thanks for another tip.

[Rory]

I teach an advanced level photography course (a portion of a 6-month curriculum for post-secondary students) a couple times a year.  One of the things I teach the students is the use and importance of doing custom white balance. With Nikons (and granted, these are not the D4 -- and I can't remember precisely the D810), it took no less than 10 menu steps to find, create and register a custom white balance! Truly ridiculous. Some Nikon engineer should have had his ass fired.  It's absurd.

Perhaps your students would benefit if you did a little more homework.  I've shot extensively with both Nikon and Canon and setting the WB on Nikons is quite easy.  Both systems have their quirks but your comments about Nikon are absurd.  Ever tried setting mirror lockup on older Canons?  Nikon's bank system is a joke.  Switching between auto and manual ISO on Canon's is a pain compared to recent Nikons.  Live view implementation on most Nikons is pretty lame.  You can go on and on.

[kers]

Nikon's bank system is a joke...

I agree.
As an all time nikon user i never understood this banksystem nor saw i good reasons to use it.
I am sure a much clever menu system could be possible.
Also i miss some menu locks.
As a d810 user i never shoot small basic jpegs only, but i did yesterday for it was only one click away from raw+ small jpegs

[dwswager]

Perhaps your students would benefit if you did a little more homework.  I've shot extensively with both Nikon and Canon and setting the WB on Nikons is quite easy.  Both systems have their quirks but your comments about Nikon are absurd.  Ever tried setting mirror lockup on older Canons?  Nikon's bank system is a joke.  Switching between auto and manual ISO on Canon's is a pain compared to recent Nikons.  Live view implementation on most Nikons is pretty lame.  You can go on and on.

I think that might be a touch harsh.  I assume he is instructing photographic technique and not how to manipulate your particular camera body.  I get lots of folks asking me how to do X on my Canon and I can usually figure it out, but that doesn't mean I did it the easy way!

However, his comments about 10 MENU steps to set register a custom WB highlights my point about bias.  Most long time Nikon shooters would consider it a major human factors fail if we have to go into the menu for simple camera settings that you are likely manipulate during a shoot.  We consider the menu for setting up the camera, not for adjusting camera settings.  I did a double take on the D500 noticing there is no AF-L/AE-L button sitting next to the AF-ON. 

The Nikon Shooting Banks are close, but backwards which makes them useless.  Combine the shooting and extended banks and make it a set starting point that never changes unless I say reset this stuff to something else.  Then you could always go back to a known starting point.  This is so intuitive that I find baffling that no camera maker has implemented this yet.  On a Nikon, the closest you get is the U1/U2 banks on the Enthusiast bodies.

[John Koerner]

Both systems have their quirks ... You can go on and on.

Not just quirks, but also benefits.

No system is perfect; each has its features/advantages, strengths & weaknesses, as well as its shortcomings.

The idea of the thread was to talk about those features/advantages and impediments ... because one system may help Photographer A and yet be intolerable to Photographer B.

Jack

[dwswager]

Interesting, and I will.

Thanks for another tip.

BTW, John, on the Nikon D500, they swapped the ISO and Mode buttons so it is truly one handed to change ISO.  You can also repurpose the Video Rec (red dot) button to be the Mode button when shooting stills.

[John Koerner]

That is definitely an improvement, thanks for pointing it out.

Will be watching the initial and subsequent reviews like a hawk ...

[brandtb]

I think the D810 hand/finger grip is one the best designed on the market and I really love that aspect of it...and one of the best I've ever used. Period. I've used a Canon 5D sporadically and I always thought it felt like a club or piece of wood (like "grabbing a 2x4) in the hand/fingers...without the proper curving indent for fingers and too shallow. I basically can't stand how they are designed. My set up with dials etc. on the D810 has no downsides as well...it all works well.

[dwswager]

John, I don't think the D500 will meet the overall SensorScore of the FX Nikons, especially with respect to noise.  I am hopeful there is a little magic to boost it reasonably above the DX D7200 (don't think they would have released it otherwise), but the physical limitations of the pixel size compared to even the D810 make it unlikely it will perform as well as the FX models.

I think the D810 hand/finger grip is one the best designed on the market and I really love that aspect of it...and one of the best I've ever used. Period. I've used a Canon 5D sporadically and I always thought it felt like a club or piece of wood (like "grabbing a 2x4) in the hand/fingers...without the proper curving indent for fingers and too shallow. I basically can't stand how they are designed. My set up with dials etc. on the D810 has no downsides as well...it all works well.

They changed the grip significantly from the D810 to the D500 which is why the battery goes in sideways.  Supposedly the narrow at the bottom to thicker at the top design is supposed to be easier and more comfortable.  Time will tell.  I have a D500 on Pre-Order to go with the D810 I'm shooting so I'll get a good opportunity to compare and contrast!

[Rory]

Ask and ye shall be saved!

On the D810 and other recent Nikons, you can assign the "preview" button and the "Fn" button to do various things.  One selection is to access the top item in your My Menu settings.  Hence, if you set ISO Sensitivity as the top item in your My Menu settings and then go to the f5 control settings and assign the Fn button to the top item in your My Menu, then you should have 1 handed operation.  Give it a shot.

And there is even a better way.  You can assign the the movie record button to change ISO (f13 in the control menu).  With the movie button reassigned to ISO, you hold the button down and the rear command wheel changes the ISO and the front command wheel toggles Auto-ISO on and off.  Once you have this set up you'll never go back unless you shoot video.

[BernardLanguillier]

Just curious, what is the limitation of auto-ISO that explains this frequent need to change the ISO manually on the fly?

The only time when I change ISO manually is prior to shooting panos (I switch off auto ISO and set it manually to the value I need ti get correct exposure with the desired speed/aperture), otherwise I have been 100% auto-ISO for almost 10 years (since the D2x in fact).

Cheers,
Bernard

[dwswager]

Just curious, what is the limitation of auto-ISO that explains this frequent need to change the ISO manually on the fly?

The only time when I change ISO manually is prior to shooting panos (I switch off auto ISO and set it manually to the value I need ti get correct exposure with the desired speed/aperture), otherwise I have been 100% auto-ISO for almost 10 years (since the D2x in fact).

Cheers,
Bernard

What shooting mode do you use?  I have no real issues using Auto-ISO in Manual, but if shooting Apereture Priority, I am sometimes foiled by the minimum shutter speed setting.

[Rory]

Just curious, what is the limitation of auto-ISO that explains this frequent need to change the ISO manually on the fly?

The only time when I change ISO manually is prior to shooting panos (I switch off auto ISO and set it manually to the value I need ti get correct exposure with the desired speed/aperture), otherwise I have been 100% auto-ISO for almost 10 years (since the D2x in fact).

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm a wildlife shooter Bernard, shooting in the 400-1200mm range most of the time.  For rapidly moving subjects, like birds in flight, I want to be in manual mode, as the background could quickly change from sky to dark forest, but the light striking the subject is usually the same.  However, when the subject moves into shade I usually prefer to shoot with auto ISO. 

Another scenario is when I am shooting normally reflective subjects using auto ISO but may have an opportunity to shoot a bird with white feathers.  I will have an exposure in mind and will want to quickly switch out of auto ISO.

[John Koerner]

The Nikon D5 also corrects the poorly-thought ISO position of the D810 ... by allowing the user to change the ISO with the right hand only ... so I am sure I am not the first to raise this issue.

Here is the ISO button placement of the D810 by comparison, which prompted me to create this topic, because it requires letting go of the lens with the left hand to use both hands to change the ISO setting:

[John Koerner]

Just curious, what is the limitation of auto-ISO that explains this frequent need to change the ISO manually on the fly?

The only time when I change ISO manually is prior to shooting panos (I switch off auto ISO and set it manually to the value I need ti get correct exposure with the desired speed/aperture), otherwise I have been 100% auto-ISO for almost 10 years (since the D2x in fact).

Cheers,
Bernard

Auto-ISO almost always selects a value that leads to over-brightness.

For example, a butterfly may have white spots on a darker background, and the Auto-ISO will expose the image for the "general value" of the entire photo, which (if dark background) will lighten the general darkness to the point of blowing the highlights of the very light areas.

For this reason, it is preferable to be able to manually-set the ISO and create my own (slightly-dark) exposure, because I can keep the details in the light areas, and move the shadow-slider in Lightroom to balance the image out later.

Same thing with taking photos of very light flowers against a darker background: Auto-ISO simply doesn't do what I, manually, would have chosen. Almost invariably, Auto-ISO will jump to a higher value than where it really needed to go.

In even light, Auto-ISO works fine. But if your subject is very light, and the background is very dark, it doesn't work quite so well.

Jack

[dwswager]

And there is even a better way.  You can assign the the movie record button to change ISO (f13 in the control menu).  With the movie button reassigned to ISO, you hold the button down and the rear command wheel changes the ISO and the front command wheel toggles Auto-ISO on and off.  Once you have this set up you'll never go back unless you shoot video.

Crikey, when I went to check this, I discovered this is actually how my D810 is already set up.  I just don't switch ISO on the fly during shoots so I guess it wasn't an issue.  I usually have something in mind going in and set ISO accordingly. I don't do video.

I'm starting to think that Canon is more like iPhone and Nikon like Android.  Canon has one consistent method for doing most things that isn't always the most efficient, while Nikon has multiple methods to achieve the same ends, but at the price of a higher learning curve.  I guess that is why Thom Hogan's favorite phrase when Nikon introduced a new camera was "Who moved the cheese?"

[BernardLanguillier]

Jack,

What you point out isn't an autoIso issue, it is a metering issue.

You can set up the camera with easy exposure compensation to apply an exposure correction by simply rotating the dial. This works also in M mode btw, which is pure genius!

Cheers,
Bernard