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Author Topic: A7ii Avchds and FCP  (Read 13614 times)

pflower

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A7ii Avchds and FCP
« on: January 29, 2016, 03:30:18 pm »

This probably more suited to the Beginner's Forum, but at the risk of ridicule I will take my chances and post here.

Once upon a time when state of the art consisted of mini-DV tapes I was pretty expert in Final Cut Pro.  But I haven't touched video in at least 10 years save for one attempt with a GH2 which was fairly painless.  I still have FCP 7 (but have pretty much forgotten how to use it efficiently)  but now I have a Sony A7ii which will do video in AVCHDS format.  Googling a workflow to try and marry the Sony with FCP leads to a lot of links which point me to buying software that will convert to Apple ProRes.  I downloaded the trial version of one such apps from Brosoft which did indeed convert.  But when opened in FCP7 it shows very distinct horizontal lines wavering across the frame.  The video was shot at 25p but the properties from within FCP show that the frame rate is 23.95. Whether that is the source of the problem is unclear.  Opening the mp4 file in the ever helpful VCL shows no such problems.

My question is this - is there an easy way to edit A7ii footage in FCP7?  If so can someone point me to a tutorial or explanation as to how to do so?  Or, for the sake of convenience, would FCPX solve my problems and ignorance?

I am quite prepared to buy FCPX but I am not at all clear as to whether that will work seamlessly with the A7ii.  The list of supported cameras does not mention the A7ii - it does mention the A7S-ii with AVCHDS but Googling the A7ii and FCPX just brings up the same links to purchase software that converts to ProRes 422.

Sorry, a really basic question.  But does anyone have any pointers or suggestions?

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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 03:45:30 pm »

FCP X will likely solve the problem you are having since it deals with different formats, frame rates and codecs very elegantly - likely far more elegantly than any other NLE.

BUT   (Yes, BIG but)

You will be starting a fairly steep learning curve in the use of FCP X which is unlike any other NLE out there. If you have memories and motor memories of FCP 7 - they need to go straight out the window. If however you want to keep a FCP 7-like workflow, my suggestion is to go to Adobe Premiere.

For a temporary workflow, I would convert all of your AVCHD to ProRes or similar without changing the frame rate. Stay with 25 fps. Edit natively in FCP 7 setting your project timeline and prefs to 25fps.

fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 06:00:38 pm »

IMO, insisting on FCP7 because you had work on it in the past and are familiar with is the worst posible option. You already see what's happening.

FCP7 is only still relevant for people like B.Cooter in the sense that they are professionals, used to it and a change always means a complete rebuilding of the all studio seats, new learning curves etc...not always posible when in the middle of a stream of work.
But FCP7 is dead and obsolete today. (i don't mean it's bad, it is abandoned)

You'd better put a bit of energy learning right now a contemporary modern software that will be rewarding very soon instead of painfuly converting for fcp7.

As Chris pointed you got FCPX but not similar to others so a bit unique in it's class. However, if it is for you, and you will not work in collaborative, FCPX could be a good option.

but you could also check
- Resolve 12 (if you're very much interested in Color correction, it's an all-in-one) - (on Resolve 12 check closely your computer specs, it is demanding and if you want to do 4K you'll need to pay)
- Adobe PP (to follow what everybody does)
- Lightworks pro on rental (if you're very much interested in the editorial aspect)

So if you don't go FCPX the most sensible, predictible, and less costly in terms of learning curve  is surely Adobe PP as Chris pointed.

PS: working natively on AVCHD is far from being really the best idea. Yes it is nice to be able to drag-and-drop your files without further issues, but this codec is a mess in editorial and uses a lot of CPU.
So the dilema of using an appropriate editing codec will remain. This is why Prores enters into action because it suits capture, editing and color. AVCHD does not.
The success of Prores resides in its universality. AVCHD is a creation built for consummer cams that is a compromise of a compromise. It allows to "shoot big on the cheap" but then you're stucked
with something in post that is nightmare.
Does it mean that your AVCHD codec will not be workable? No. All the software I mentionned will take natively. But it means that you'll have very Little room in post and your image will fall appart for a yes or a no. (so you'll need to nail it in capture)

To use a // with still imagery, think AVCHD as is you were shooting JPEG at 5 or 6 quality. And Prores like a Tiff file.
Is it better a 5 quality JPEG at 4K or a robust Tiff at HD or 2K ? That's the buzz. No definitive answer can be given and depends very much on the needs of each one.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 06:44:26 pm by fredjeang2 »
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ButchM

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2016, 09:47:59 pm »

While I am relatively new to the modern, digital video realm and NLE software in general ... I have been a full time professional still photographer (mostly photojournalism) for over 40 years.

In that time I have seen a lot of tools come and go. While I only used FCP 7 sparingly, in the employ of another, I must say that without a doubt FCP X is the absolute very best investment of $299 I have ever made. What I did't like about FCP 7 ... seemed to be ironed out with FCP X. Along with the several very meaningful updates to FCP X at no additional cost.

Two years ago when I was deciding which NLE to adopt, I worked a trial of both FCP X and Premier Pro. FCP X won hands down. It may go against the grain of what more experienced editors may expect from an NLE, but I really like the manner in which it handles editing. When compared to other affordable options, I must say I get far more done ... and more quickly ... with FCP X than any other option I looked at. The price point is a pure bonus.

Most of my work is on extremely tight deadlines and FCP X really keeps my stress level in check.

Not to mention Motion 5 is a spectacular asset and a true production partner for FCP X for only $50.
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Hywel

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 06:07:36 am »

I use video from an A7Rii in FCP-X with no problems.

As others have said, FCP-X is not like any other editing software out there (except perhaps iMovie, but don't let that fool you. We've edited indie feature films on FCP-X).

If you are used to and like FCP-7 then Premiere Pro is the way to go.

If you are only an occasional video editor and are prepared to spend a weekend letting go of the way you used to edit and working through a Ripple training course with FCP-X, or just plunging in and giving it a go, you may find it is a MUCH more intuitive way to edit. I certainly find it much faster for assembling rough cuts and doing basic colour correction. (Magic Bullet Studio is a good investment too for anything more complex).

As Fred says, where it falls down somewhat is in highly collaborative environments- but if you are working in a highly collaborative environment with sound guys, colourists, assistant editors, etc. I'd just use whatever they tell you to. (The big boys are all still on AVID for some inexplicable reason- it feels like editing from the stone age to me. But I can see it lets everyone work on their own little bits more easily).

The proof of the pudding: my technophobe actor wife swore blind she could NEVER edit videos, back in the days of FCP7 and PPro.

She learnt FCP-X in a weekend and now edits 75% of our video footage, including shooting and editing her own year-long documentary projects.

Our 18-year-old intern picked enough of FCP-X up to edit a short film for a festival for us in a week- including learning FCP-X as she went. She's now at film school and roundly cursing the obtuse relics running AVID in the industry-standard editing bays.

So yes I'd say FCP-X is worth a punt  ;)

Cheers, Hywel
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 02:25:44 pm »

I wish I could learn fcp X.   I've done two edits in it and I can't erase 10 years of knowledge no matter how hard I try.

I've also gone to premier, but I hate the susbscription model as right now I'm out of studio and can't connect and Adobe can't find my log in, which is crazy cause they keep billing me every month.

I've known still photographers that went to fcpX and in a weekend learned to do a base edit, but for me it's just a fright.

Once I get the premier thing worked out next week, I'll probably stop on fcp 7, though I'll do it with a slight tear in my eyes.

IMO

BC

Coot, I'm quite surprised that you don't seem to take into
Consideration Resolve 12, in the sense that you are already
Vastly used to its interface.
That would avoid to embrasse PP that you don't like.
Why? Because you don't see it ready, still a work in progress?

James, IMO, you should not use a software you don't like
(PP) because it's going to be your mate for many years.
It's a bit like trying to force yourself to feel attracted for
A lady who does not move you...you can't force those things.

Maybe, as you are not in emergency, waiting Resolve to evolve
And being more editorial friendly, no?
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 02:45:31 pm »

Im editing in free davinci resolve.. just like FCP7 but it works and has the best colour of any NLE
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2016, 11:47:37 am »

Ain't surprised about what you said with editirial.
It is way more easy to find good colorists, but
The editorial crowd is more rare (like the sound techs)
To find and the good onces are ultra busy and expensive.

An editor is like the drummer of a band. And all bands will
Tell you: the most difficult to find are the right drummers.

Most work I see screw the edito but generaly have superb
Color work. This is specialy true in advertising because
An editor has to be a bit of a musician, a writter, a storyteller,
A designer. A person without a natural sense of tempos, music
Rythm and spacial understanding can not become a great
Editor.

Most mistake I see in advert is that they got good shooting,
Great color, but the music ends to be out of context, as if
It was a copy-paste, just to fill the blank.
Also, most do not know about fashion, couture etc...and
We got those "out-of-context" final products. And thst is
Due to the editorial part, the weaker on the chain.
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2016, 11:38:25 am »

Talking about editorial,

One of the reasons I pointed that LW is the editor's NLE
Is because it is the only one that allows you
To use spacially the footage as if there were
Cartoon vignetes. No other NLE is bringing such
Capability.

Imo, the editing needs a cartoon or storyboarding
Capabilities-implementation.

It is not thought for editors the fact that the footage
Is organized into bins, that are rigid and then a timeline.
Editing needs a table, a space in wich you organize and
Reorganize the elements, exactly like in a newspaper
Editorial.

In all NLE, you do not have  an organic and easy representation
Of the footage, but metadatas orientated, wich is also
Really important but not enough.
Then the sacro-saint timeline as the core...

In LW, the timeline is each clip's timeline and can be switched
To record (active) or not wherever you place your clip into
A spacial working area (like a real table). This capability,
The fact that there are no differences between clip and edit and
Timelines only exists in LW and it is the reason why so many
Hollywood top editors are using it. It is the editor's NLE.

I'm not saying it's the best as there is no "best" but depends
On each one's needs and approach. But yes what I do affirm
Is that if you are very much into the editing and work seriously
A week on it, you'll can not use something else after. And
That, I can guarantee. If editing is not your priority, there are
Others very good options out there.
For example, I see no point using LW if your work is advert
Or short form. It would work of course but you may not take
Advantage of its specialness. If you do long form, go for it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 11:51:09 am by fredjeang2 »
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pflower

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2016, 03:51:12 pm »

I took the plunge and bought FCPX.  Thinking about it i opened up a 90 minute project I had done some 4 years ago on FCP 7 and realised that I couldn't remember how or why I had done what I did do (although the final product was rather good).  It struck me that I would have to go through a complete re-learning process on FCP7 plus all kinds of difficulties in transcoding AVCHDS to work with it and incorporate other footage.  So better to go with the flow.  My first impressions are that it is reasonably intuitive to do straightforward assemblies.  But there are conceptual problems that arise over Libraries, Events and Projects which are not immediately obvious (I am familiar with the concept of keeping media on external drives, accessed by FCP7 which then saves a "project" file with references to that media which can be backed up and archived. I can't quite get my head around the new paradigm. But I am working on that.

I have bought a book by Edgar Rothermich which seems to answer the obvious questions.  And there are a lot of little YouTube videos available which again are helpful.  But I would appreciate any suggestions as to other books and or tutorials that I should look at.

Thanks for all the responses.


Philip

 
I use video from an A7Rii in FCP-X with no problems.

As others have said, FCP-X is not like any other editing software out there (except perhaps iMovie, but don't let that fool you. We've edited indie feature films on FCP-X).

If you are used to and like FCP-7 then Premiere Pro is the way to go.

If you are only an occasional video editor and are prepared to spend a weekend letting go of the way you used to edit and working through a Ripple training course with FCP-X, or just plunging in and giving it a go, you may find it is a MUCH more intuitive way to edit. I certainly find it much faster for assembling rough cuts and doing basic colour correction. (Magic Bullet Studio is a good investment too for anything more complex).

As Fred says, where it falls down somewhat is in highly collaborative environments- but if you are working in a highly collaborative environment with sound guys, colourists, assistant editors, etc. I'd just use whatever they tell you to. (The big boys are all still on AVID for some inexplicable reason- it feels like editing from the stone age to me. But I can see it lets everyone work on their own little bits more easily).

The proof of the pudding: my technophobe actor wife swore blind she could NEVER edit videos, back in the days of FCP7 and PPro.

She learnt FCP-X in a weekend and now edits 75% of our video footage, including shooting and editing her own year-long documentary projects.

Our 18-year-old intern picked enough of FCP-X up to edit a short film for a festival for us in a week- including learning FCP-X as she went. She's now at film school and roundly cursing the obtuse relics running AVID in the industry-standard editing bays.

So yes I'd say FCP-X is worth a punt  ;)

Cheers, Hywel
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2016, 08:21:37 pm »

...or tutorials that I should look at.

Thanks for all the responses.


Philip

 

https://library.creativecow.net/video-tutorials/fcpxtechnique

https://library.creativecow.net/neil_andy/FCPX-Multicam-1/1
https://library.creativecow.net/mcguire_sam/FCPX-Match-EQ/1

http://fcpx.tv/

http://www.fcp.co/?view=featured

There is also Larry Lordan who sank into it and never emerged back since. Check Larry Jordan like those: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=larry+jordan+fcpx

watch particularly this video that will explain the reason to transcode to Prores: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtuoN8MlQJ8

Best luck.

And keep the faith...the road ain't that long. If you put energy on the learning in a week or 2 you're done for the big part. Hey, a NLE is not riding the space shuttle.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 09:22:55 pm by fredjeang2 »
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ButchM

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2016, 09:02:36 am »

... I would appreciate any suggestions as to other books and or tutorials that I should look at.

Thanks for all the responses.


Philip

 

I have taken advantage of the previously mention resources and really appreciate the free short tutorials from the guys at Ripple Training. The 'Under 5 Minutes' series for FCP X and Motion 5 come in handy. They show you a specific item without putting to much of hole in your schedule.

https://www.youtube.com/user/rippleguy/videos
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2016, 11:32:31 am »

As Fred says, transcode to prores.   Whether you like it or not FCPX is always transcoding unless you keep it at proxy level.  Yes it can be fast but using mixed codecs, framing kind os messes it up and dropping raw footage in like RED Raw with decent compression slows it up on any system.

The best way to learn it is to bring an expert in for two days and just run through two complex edits.  Not long form linear, but soft firm with graphics, especially round tripping to motion.

FCPX would be a lot easier if they'd kept some of the naming intact from standard editorial systems but instead they changed steering wheel to back seat, gear shift to steering wheel.

IMO

BC

I must admit that I really like more and more Prores.

I know, I've been barking in the past because Apple
Kept it proprietary but in the end it has never been
An hassle in Windows while the softwares I use
Are bundled with so you don't even notice that
It is proprietary.

IMO, all cameras should shoot in Prores directly
With choice of flavours.
I beleive this is partly the success of the Alexa.

The only Raw workflow that I find well implemented
Is Red. Because you know what you are doing and
It is very easy to strip the all thing and revert to XYZ
If required. And the cineon curve is cristal clear.
Also, Red does not stress the workstation that much.
But apart from Red, Prores is indeed the very best
Option. Great in capture, great in editing and great in color
In the highest flavours.

Ps: what I find crap in FCPX is the look of the
Interface: very 70'ish mixed with japanese manga.
A bit toyish.
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2016, 07:07:35 pm »

Tell ya something funny.

A friend of mine works in fcpX.

He's always going on about it to the point I want to gaff tape him to a chair.

This week he went to a Baselight seminar and was texting me and sending screen shots.

He texted a screen shot and said "this is great"  When you use baselight it makes fcpX look like fcp7.

I told him, look up the specs.  They only make it for Avid, Nuke and FCP7, not FCPX.

He was like uh, uh, well maybe uh.

IMO

BC
Lol...

Baselight is still covering FCP7 true. That seems to proove that many FCP7 users have never switched yet.

I tested the Baselight for Avid at the time I used Avid (my pre-Lightworks era) and it was really good. Actually I still have a Media Composer with a Baselight plug-in in an old Workstation
that I can't unplug because got on it a software that is obsolete and can't go on Windows 8 but that they still use in certain printing houses I work with.

The Baselight plug-ins for NLEs aren't of course the standalone version ultra expensive but they do a great job indeed and the interface is very much "photographic" designed if I might say.

But with Resolve I don't see the Baselight point except that instead of roudtripping it's all automatized, wich can indeed fits in some's workflows.

I beleive as long as you got the roundtripping hassle-free you could keep going with FCP7 many more years without problems, included if your clients want 8K (wich I hope they won't bite on this nonsense)
because in the end cutting is cutting.
After all, replacing in Resolve by the higher res medias is what's been done for years and years until the "edit native" mantra contaminated everything. (Do we really want to edit natively the higher Red included with the Rocket? that's a bit playing with fire)

Frankly, I don't see a problem editing with Prores-proxies in an old FCP or Avid and then replacing the medias at the conform stage. It's manual, yes, but when you do that 10 times a day in the end it's like going to the lu.

I think that we live in an accelerated world that tends to sell us "upgrade to the latest or die". So if we'd follow this spirit your R1 is just good for the garbage and you should just buy the lastest Red cams otherwise it ain't cool and you'd loose magic properties of the new generations? All that is marketing.
And the fun part is that the latest "Graeme" color science is available regardless of the camera involved. (and who cares about the latest coulour science to be honest?)

Remember Telma edited the Scorcese movies with an old LW version, way much less powerfull and sophisticated than the today's released product and it worked! (actually, it seems that the dudes who change all the time to the latest are in fact the non-professionals).

I think that whatever modern camera like the BMs if you can shoot Prores and avoid like the plague those ultra-compressed AVCHD and Co the footage will be brought in FCP7 without transcoding hassles.
In fact, that obliges to a rational approach: I still don't get the point why all cameras aren't shooting or Prores or DNx but instead of that weired oscur codecs??
That's what's lovely about the Pocket camera or the Arri, Prores means it can be inserted in whatever NLE (included FCP7) and colored in whatever color suite without the need of transcodes. What-you-shoot-is-what-you-need (I should patent that: WYSIWYN)

FCP7 still has long years of editing ahead. No rush is necessary IMO. In the momento R.R (your company) does his own movies using FCP7 is perfectly doable. It would be different in the case you were an editorial house and edit other's Works then yes FCP7 would now be an obstacle. But then you would not use either FCPX. (similar in fact to what did a friend of mine, profesional musician. He was on Avid and got fed-up and switched to Reaper. He told me that if he had to mix other's Works he would have been obliged to keep Avid, but as he Works for him he had the choice)

 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 07:58:04 pm by fredjeang2 »
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eronald

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2016, 11:39:40 pm »


I hate editing.
However I've noticed Resolve on my MBP just barfs with my GH4 files, where FCPX is usable.
As I'm not a "pro" I won't buy a big config edit station and have to use what I own ..

Edmund

Lol...

Baselight is still covering FCP7 true. That seems to proove that many FCP7 users have never switched yet.

I tested the Baselight for Avid at the time I used Avid (my pre-Lightworks era) and it was really good. Actually I still have a Media Composer with a Baselight plug-in in an old Workstation
that I can't unplug because got on it a software that is obsolete and can't go on Windows 8 but that they still use in certain printing houses I work with.

The Baselight plug-ins for NLEs aren't of course the standalone version ultra expensive but they do a great job indeed and the interface is very much "photographic" designed if I might say.

But with Resolve I don't see the Baselight point except that instead of roudtripping it's all automatized, wich can indeed fits in some's workflows.

I beleive as long as you got the roundtripping hassle-free you could keep going with FCP7 many more years without problems, included if your clients want 8K (wich I hope they won't bite on this nonsense)
because in the end cutting is cutting.
After all, replacing in Resolve by the higher res medias is what's been done for years and years until the "edit native" mantra contaminated everything. (Do we really want to edit natively the higher Red included with the Rocket? that's a bit playing with fire)

Frankly, I don't see a problem editing with Prores-proxies in an old FCP or Avid and then replacing the medias at the conform stage. It's manual, yes, but when you do that 10 times a day in the end it's like going to the lu.

I think that we live in an accelerated world that tends to sell us "upgrade to the latest or die". So if we'd follow this spirit your R1 is just good for the garbage and you should just buy the lastest Red cams otherwise it ain't cool and you'd loose magic properties of the new generations? All that is marketing.
And the fun part is that the latest "Graeme" color science is available regardless of the camera involved. (and who cares about the latest coulour science to be honest?)

Remember Telma edited the Scorcese movies with an old LW version, way much less powerfull and sophisticated than the today's released product and it worked! (actually, it seems that the dudes who change all the time to the latest are in fact the non-professionals).

I think that whatever modern camera like the BMs if you can shoot Prores and avoid like the plague those ultra-compressed AVCHD and Co the footage will be brought in FCP7 without transcoding hassles.
In fact, that obliges to a rational approach: I still don't get the point why all cameras aren't shooting or Prores or DNx but instead of that weired oscur codecs??
That's what's lovely about the Pocket camera or the Arri, Prores means it can be inserted in whatever NLE (included FCP7) and colored in whatever color suite without the need of transcodes. What-you-shoot-is-what-you-need (I should patent that: WYSIWYN)

FCP7 still has long years of editing ahead. No rush is necessary IMO. In the momento R.R (your company) does his own movies using FCP7 is perfectly doable. It would be different in the case you were an editorial house and edit other's Works then yes FCP7 would now be an obstacle. But then you would not use either FCPX. (similar in fact to what did a friend of mine, profesional musician. He was on Avid and got fed-up and switched to Reaper. He told me that if he had to mix other's Works he would have been obliged to keep Avid, but as he Works for him he had the choice)
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2016, 01:12:50 pm »

I hate editing.
However I've noticed Resolve on my MBP just barfs with my GH4 files, where FCPX is usable.
As I'm not a "pro" I won't buy a big config edit station and have to use what I own ..

Edmund

Maybe because of Resolve being primary
A color app on wich they add later editing
Capabilities is the cause.
All dedicated color apps are really computer
Specs dependant while a NLE always works
Smoother on most workstations.

Resolve always had the reputation to require
Higher computers performances (and prefers certain
Brands cards) but this
Is in fact also true for other similar apps.

Ps: a standalone Baselight or Nucoda or Scratch and Co
Are completly meaningless if you are not a professional
Colorist. The success of Resolve stands in its low price
And free version. It gives a lot for the buck so everyone
Could access it as long as you are compliant with its requiered specs.

For 99% of the work (mean by that all that is not cinema
And high-end advert) the color plug-ins that come with
The NLEs (or compatible with) are just more than enough.
Things like Speedgrade for PP or Baselight plug-ins etc...

But as Resolve costs so little having a high-end color
Tool pedigree, it explains why so many
People are using it.
If you dig into the dedicated colorists forums, you realise
That Resolve ain't necesarly the holy grail for those dudes,
Who still prefer pure color apllications and couldn't care less of editing
Capabilities bundled with at the last minute. But those are
Specialists used to work in highly collaborative environements.

I'm sure that there should have color plugins
For FCPX with presetted looks that can avoid
Long hours in a colour suite. Things like Boris stuff etc...
So you apply a preset look and all you have to do is just
Finetune.

But the big downsides of the NLEs are their notorious unhability
To work with sophisticated masks+trackers And just for that,
The use of an external color app is often necessary.
Fcpx, like others, does not have such capabilty and therefore
You'd need something else soon or later.

And working with polygon masks and trackers is not a
Luxury reserved for the big gurus. You'll often be in the
Situation where you need to isolate a face, a dress etc...
And apply a specific CC just on that. In those common
Scenarios, the NLES (fcpx included) are useless.

Now...there is another way: using a compo app like Fusion
Or Nuke or the 100% free Natron and bypass a color app. This is a different animal-workflow
BUT...
Compo apps are incredibly light and would work
On laptops just like a NLE. Only the render time
Could be long but you won't crash.
The only thing is that they do not like those AVCHD
Kind of codecs. (in fact nothing like them, nor the NLEs)
And you need to bring them proper files like tiff, open exr,
Image sequence like.
Image sequences are just heavy but do not requiere
Complex decodifications from the ultra compressed
Codecs that stress the CPU.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 03:18:57 pm by fredjeang2 »
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 12:43:11 pm »

If I understand your workflow it goes something like this:

(for Red)
-1) you do a pre-color correction in RCX
-2) you generate prores "proxies" from RCX that you'll use in FCP7
-3) edit
-4) roundtripp to Resolve where you relink to the Raw files and color final.

Is that correct?

For other formats you might use (GH etc...) I suppose that you have to transcode the all to Prores also.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:47:12 pm by fredjeang2 »
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eronald

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 10:51:55 pm »

Fred,

 Thank you for taking the time to educate me.
 As it is spring, I am starting to think mini-documentary again. I think I will do short interviews and single takes, cut them. Life is too short for all this complicated stuff. Or rather, maybe, just maybe, there still remains space for a short rough visual story.

Edmund

Maybe because of Resolve being primary
A color app on wich they add later editing
Capabilities is the cause.
All dedicated color apps are really computer
Specs dependant while a NLE always works
Smoother on most workstations.

Resolve always had the reputation to require
Higher computers performances (and prefers certain
Brands cards) but this
Is in fact also true for other similar apps.

Ps: a standalone Baselight or Nucoda or Scratch and Co
Are completly meaningless if you are not a professional
Colorist. The success of Resolve stands in its low price
And free version. It gives a lot for the buck so everyone
Could access it as long as you are compliant with its requiered specs.

For 99% of the work (mean by that all that is not cinema
And high-end advert) the color plug-ins that come with
The NLEs (or compatible with) are just more than enough.
Things like Speedgrade for PP or Baselight plug-ins etc...

But as Resolve costs so little having a high-end color
Tool pedigree, it explains why so many
People are using it.
If you dig into the dedicated colorists forums, you realise
That Resolve ain't necesarly the holy grail for those dudes,
Who still prefer pure color apllications and couldn't care less of editing
Capabilities bundled with at the last minute. But those are
Specialists used to work in highly collaborative environements.

I'm sure that there should have color plugins
For FCPX with presetted looks that can avoid
Long hours in a colour suite. Things like Boris stuff etc...
So you apply a preset look and all you have to do is just
Finetune.

But the big downsides of the NLEs are their notorious unhability
To work with sophisticated masks+trackers And just for that,
The use of an external color app is often necessary.
Fcpx, like others, does not have such capabilty and therefore
You'd need something else soon or later.

And working with polygon masks and trackers is not a
Luxury reserved for the big gurus. You'll often be in the
Situation where you need to isolate a face, a dress etc...
And apply a specific CC just on that. In those common
Scenarios, the NLES (fcpx included) are useless.

Now...there is another way: using a compo app like Fusion
Or Nuke or the 100% free Natron and bypass a color app. This is a different animal-workflow
BUT...
Compo apps are incredibly light and would work
On laptops just like a NLE. Only the render time
Could be long but you won't crash.
The only thing is that they do not like those AVCHD
Kind of codecs. (in fact nothing like them, nor the NLEs)
And you need to bring them proper files like tiff, open exr,
Image sequence like.
Image sequences are just heavy but do not requiere
Complex decodifications from the ultra compressed
Codecs that stress the CPU.
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 06:35:29 pm »

Fred,


Yes and no.

It depends on the project.

Mostly I start with a pleasing grade out of resolve, output in 2k and 4k.  Apply kind of a custom lut or better put medium grade that has a little more film like depth, without totally crushing the blacks and trying to protect the highlights.

If it's a multi-cam shoot we usually shoot those scenes with REDs because it's very easy to match tone, look, color, wb, either in resolve or Cine-x.

If I have mixed footage, i.e. Sony uhd, RED 4k, Canons, we do our best to make them match where it's not obvious that we switched cameras.  Everything goes out in Prores 444.

I only use cine-x for RED footage if I shot on the limit of 1200 asa, or needs to hold challenged highlights.

But usually I find Resolve to have a superior color engine and every edit I do gets touched by resolve in some way.

Then I edit in fcp7 in 2k., which is relatively fast as long as you run internal ssds, have a medium amount of ram, 16gb for powerbooks, more for desktops (even though fcp only uses 4gb) because it allows you to move back and forth from photoshop for graphics to fcp without overtaxing the machine.

We set up fcp 7 not with proxy files, but with the deepest 2k prores files we can produce, put sequence settings at 50% render and draft mode.  Then rendering time is fast and actually has a very small effect in time usage, until your at a final locked edit.

When the edit is locked depending (on the edit), I usually send an xml to resolve (minus graphics),  to finish the look of the full clips, and return the 2k xml back to fcp 7 for finish and conforming.

If 4k is required, wenjust duplicate the final locked sequence in 7, reconnect that media with the finished 4k footage and render out.

Contrary to popular believe, FCP 7 will accept uhd and 4k footage.  You do a few workarounds, but they're fast and not complicated, if you understand how to paste attributes.

Now long form really depends on the project.

Usually it's close to what I wrote  above, other than I will go back the Raws and master footage after a light correct/match in resolve.

If time is not available to transcode everything with slight corrections, like 180 minutes of scheduled final edits, I just transcode everything to prores 444 then go back into resolve in the originals for the final look.

(BTW:   I'm not suggesting anyone move to any NLE, I'm just explaining what works for us.)

My reasons for fcp7 are simple.  First if I could just buy premier rather than deal with the cloud, I'd have already moved.   It's not that far from fcp7, has a slight learning curve and works kind of fast, (not blazing) but faster than fcp 7 though not as stable.

The issues I have with the adobe cc cloud, as I go back and forth from LA to London regularly and Adobe seems to not recognize our account purchases.  This happens every time, so I'm just grow weary of placing a call, going through the whole thing, then being told that my best bet is to buy another subscription.

It's not the money, it's just the principle.   

The most important reason for using fcp 7 is not my long experience with it, it's because today it works on all of my machines.   4 powerbooks, three 5.1 stations, three of the latest imacs all running operating systems from snow leopard to Yosemite, I have multiple licenses so I'm not overstepping if we're running multiple stations.

Will I move systems.  Sure, just because the world has moved and round tripping for 4k conforms is time consuming, but honestly if you go outside for effects, colouring and conforming, it really doesn't matter what you edit in as long as your footage is prepped well.

IMO

BC

James,

Many thanks for this very detailled description.

Very interesting indeed.

I often learn more in Lu-la on motion work than in dedicated
Forums.

Cheers.
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fredjeang2

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Re: A7ii Avchds and FCP
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2016, 01:43:14 pm »


Fred,

Your welcome.

I really believe that today it's possible that photoshop could be a go to system for color grading, compositing, tracking and even simple linear editing.

I'm almost positive that photoshop could adapt a mask as the subject moves with exact tracking, or even allow much more creative control in color, tone and look.

I just think Adobe like most in the electronic world are so use to having a separate program for each dedicated function, that development gets somewhat stagnant.

Same with lightroom.  Why not just basic controls as in stills with the ability to key frame.   I think lightroom for footage would dominate the grading market.

IMO

BC

I don't see in today's marketplace how softwares like Mistika,
Pablo or Nucoda will survive for very long.
I've been asking Editshare to consider a partnership with
One of those in building a plug-in just like Baselight in
The spirit you said: mask-tracking + basic controls with
Sophisticate color engine. This sort of partnership could avoid
Those companies to end in bankruptcy soon. Will they
Listen? I doubt it.

Resolve color engine is very good but the interface
Just drives me crazy. I hate it because it is dead rigid.
It is: adapts yourself to the software'design instead of:
The software'design adapts itself to your workstyle.

Then the frenchies with their Sratch did better in that aspect
But, being french and arrogants, they could not resist to an oversophistication
And some fancy mouse behaviours that are more useless
Than really efficient.

According to most colourists, the holly grail seems to
Be the standalone Baselight wich costs a fortune if colour
Ain't your core business.

We're again in the very same as always: no ideal.
Yes...I'm barking...lol

« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 01:51:56 pm by fredjeang2 »
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