Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.

[torger]

Ok, so if this is true, then we can reverse that process, and use the new IQ3-100 profiles on a Sony A7R2 in C1 9.0.2 ?

Yep, but IR filter is almost certainly different so the response is not exactly the same even if the CFA would be identical.

It should be noted that even if CFA is quite different normal low saturation colors will look sort of right anyway, to really see if there's a match you need to test high saturation colors.

All modern cameras today have quite similar CFAs. I've tested a fair bit of cameras and only my own Kodak based H4D-50 was substantially different within the "normal" range, as Kodak has built in quite some subjectivity into the CFAs itself, while all modern cameras are more designed to make objective realistic colors. Regardless you can still make hugely different results depending on profile design, just compare Leaf and Phase One color, despite the same sensor they have quite different color. Leaf ICC profiles can't be used with other cameras as Leaf has it's own processing pipeline with its own way to format their ICC profiles, nowadays builtin to Capture One. Otherwise you could switch between Phase One and Leaf color easily, but due to the different software handling of color you can't which is a good thing for Phase One so the products are more clearly differentiated.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

What comes to my mind is that Sony sensors use ramp type ADCs. My take is that they can have different depth using different integration times.

Best regards
Erik

Interesting, the 16 bit mode is probably new and may really produce 16 bit data in the raw files. Maybe those 15 bits of DR is true afterall

[torger]

Doug, why sensor + isn't used on P1's Cmos backs? Is there a (technical) reason for that? Personally, I find it the most attractive feature of P1 backs...

Sensor+ requires hardware support from the sensor and is Dalsa-specific technology.

[torger]

For that I do not doubt I'm sure it's the king of sensors as of now!

There are so many "if"'s for me: if it's BSI, and if it works with the Schneider 28mm XL, and if I can find a reliable ND solution for that 112mm center filter of the 28XL (leakage-free), and if I can manage to find a good copy of the 28XL, or if Rodenstock makes something else that is compatible and compact and wide enough (doing a better job than the 32HR) then... it's going to be impossible to resist  Nevertheless, if the 32HR works with it then I'm sure many tech cam users will be happy with it.

I think you can forget the 28XL. The A7r-II is BSI with the same pixel pitch and it didn't perform as well as we hoped for tech wide angles. My guess is that this Sony sensor is not BSI (as BSI and the best low ISO DR doesn't seem to combine right now) and that together with the small pixel pitch will not make it work well even with moderate tech wides, I'd be happily surprised if it can do the 32HR with any larger amounts of shift. However as it will for sure have offset microlenses it could still work well for unshifted center frames.

This is all guesses though, I wait eagerly for the first test reports.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Anders,

You have a thread to that discussion. Just curious. What was the major issue? Crosstalk or shading?

Best regards
Erik

I think you can forget the 28XL. The A7r-II is BSI with the same pixel pitch and it didn't perform as well as we hoped for tech wide angles.

[torger]

You have a thread to that discussion. Just curious. What was the major issue? Crosstalk or shading?

Unfortunately I never got any raw files in that thread so I don't really know for sure, I've just heard several say that it's not solved the issues of the A7r. So I don't really know where the limits are.

As the sensor has microlenses I expect shading (microlens ripple) be an issue, but it can generally be fixed with some software tricks. Crosstalk is harder to fix. BSI should in theory have much lower such issues, but it depends on your design target on how you make the sensor. Tech lenses haven't been in anyone's design targets in recent years.

I think that to make it work well with tech lenses you'd need to make the photo diode a bit smaller and thus hurt DR/noise performance a little, and that is not a tradeoff the manufacturers want to do, just like we're probably not going to see microlens-free sensors again in the nearest future.

I think the tech lens ranges will have to adapt to the sensors because the other way around won't happen, unless we get a good match due to some coincidence. I hoped that BSI would be one such, but the A7r-II made me doubt.

I would not be surprised if Rodenstock is already working on some new retrofocus wide angle to work with modern CMOS sensors. Say if this new back won't work with the HR32 that would be a major blow to the tech cam genre for architecture and landscape and only Rodenstock can fix that, Sony won't care. With the lens design getting closer and closer the SLR lenses it remains to be seen if they can keep up with the image quality advantage, especially since they must do it without software lens corrections. If they succeed it would be a $10k+ lens (and probably 1kg+) for sure...

But let's first see what this back can do with the current lens ranges... I can't wait to hear/see about it 

[Peter Devos]

Is there anybody who downloaded the example files on the phase one website and opened them in photoshop? I really was absolutely not impressed by the image quality: sure, they are large, big and heavy but i really don't like the rendering on the airplane and lack of detail in all images except the one with the girl. It must be me but really, not impressed :-)

[voidshatter]

Unfortunately I never got any raw files in that thread so I don't really know for sure, I've just heard several say that it's not solved the issues of the A7r. So I don't really know where the limits are.

As the sensor has microlenses I expect shading (microlens ripple) be an issue, but it can generally be fixed with some software tricks. Crosstalk is harder to fix. BSI should in theory have much lower such issues, but it depends on your design target on how you make the sensor. Tech lenses haven't been in anyone's design targets in recent years.

I think that to make it work well with tech lenses you'd need to make the photo diode a bit smaller and thus hurt DR/noise performance a little, and that is not a tradeoff the manufacturers want to do, just like we're probably not going to see microlens-free sensors again in the nearest future.

I think the tech lens ranges will have to adapt to the sensors because the other way around won't happen, unless we get a good match due to some coincidence. I hoped that BSI would be one such, but the A7r-II made me doubt.

All I heard was just astigmatism/curvature/smearing caused by sensor cover glass, not crosstalk. I have never been able to know why and how the A7R-II does not work well with the 28XL.

I would not be surprised if Rodenstock is already working on some new retrofocus wide angle to work with modern CMOS sensors. Say if this new back won't work with the HR32 that would be a major blow to the tech cam genre for architecture and landscape and only Rodenstock can fix that, Sony won't care. With the lens design getting closer and closer the SLR lenses it remains to be seen if they can keep up with the image quality advantage, especially since they must do it without software lens corrections. If they succeed it would be a $10k+ lens (and probably 1kg+) for sure...

But let's first see what this back can do with the current lens ranges... I can't wait to hear/see about it 

Yes I completely agree. If you can just use keystones to fix an unshifted 100 MP image (with proper deconvolution or whatever sharpening algorithms) then it will probably surpass the image quality of shifted 60 MP image by a margin, and that would defeat the purpose of technical cameras.

A lens heavier than the 32HR? No thanks, the 32HR is already bulky and the center filter is too huge to accept normal ND grads.

Last night Alpa posted a picture of the 100 MP mounted with the 32HR, but later posted only the sample image of 90HR-SW instead. This isn't looking good for the 32HR if it's not BSI. Maybe Alpa will be able to surprise us.

[gavincato]

I thought the detail on the studio shot was jaw dropping.

The ice mountainy shot i thought was a bit soft but put it down to weather conditions.

[Peter Devos]

I thought the detail on the studio shot was jaw dropping.

The ice mountainy shot i thought was a bit soft but put it down to weather conditions.

Yes, the studioshot is excellent and the lack of moire in all the images is remarkable but the detail and rendering of the other images is not that great (airplane image is horrible). As if the upscaled a 60Mp file to match a 100Mp and smoothened out the artifacts. But it sure is because they are initial test shots on a pre production camera or so. The next images will be much better :-)

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would assume that MFD also has cover glass. Sony uses around 2 mm, I don't know about the thickness used on MFD. Very clearly, the cover glass needs to be taken into account when designing a lens, espcially if that lens works with large beam angles.

Best regards
Erik

All I heard was just astigmatism/curvature/smearing caused by sensor cover glass, not crosstalk. I have never been able to know why and how the A7R-II does not work well with the 28XL.

[AreBee]

Wayne, Theodoros,

...maybe that explains the fire sale for Hasselblad backs in the past couple of months ... getting ready for a new line up.

...Hasselblad seems to be moving their 50MP sensor as to be their entry level product which means that they are making space for larger sensors... Whether that will be the same Sony 100mp sensor or other remains to be seen...

From here:

...this is a CMOS sensor, and it has been confirmed that it is a combined Phase One / Sony design, fabricated by Sony. My understanding is that this sensor will (over time) also become available to other camera makers...

[torger]

Phase One had exclusiveness for the 60MP Dalsa sensor (originally in the P65+) for a few years, so it may be some similar deal here. That would be great for Phase One, and it's more likely this deal to happen for a 54x41mm sensor than a 44x33mm as the former don't have the same mass market potential so Sony doesn't lose as much letting Phase One have exclusivity.

For the users it would be an unfortunate monopoly situation though of course.

Considering it being a joint Phase One + Sony design I think its mostly market speak. Phase One have surely provided input as their cameras have been the target system, but how much can they really affect the design? Probably not so much...

[BernardLanguillier]

Phase One had exclusiveness for the 60MP Dalsa sensor (originally in the P65+) for a few years, so it may be some similar deal here. That would be great for Phase One, and it's more likely this deal to happen for a 54x41mm sensor than a 44x33mm as the former don't have the same mass market potential so Sony doesn't lose as much letting Phase One have exclusivity.

For the users it would be an unfortunate monopoly situation though of course.

I believe that Kevin and Michael made it clear in their article that this sensor was not eclusive to them.

Now it doesn't that they can't make a better use of it than the competition.

Cheers,
Bernard

[torger]

I believe that Kevin and Michael made it clear in their article that this sensor was not eclusive to them.

Now it doesn't that they can't make a better use of it than the competition.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sounds great. Indeed Phase One has historically been best with a margin at using CCD chips. I think CMOS evens it out a bit as it more about the sensor and less about the surrounding electronics in that case.

[Theodoros]

Wayne, Theodoros,

From here:

If one carefully reads this statement (from P1's site),....

"Phase One and Sony have been development partners for years, the 50MP sensor being the first milestone of our cooperation, now found in the XF IQ3 50MP. Creating the full frame sibling to the 50MP CMOS system has been a top priority of Phase One for years. Phase One sensor experts have been working hard to optimize the complete use of the 100MP sensor for the worlds most demanding photographers."

....he may find that there is no safe conclusion that P1 was involved in the development of the sensor... As we all know, Hasselblad was first to implement the 50mp Sony Cmos sensor in production... IMO, the (carefully written) above statement, says that P1 was working close with Sony as to develop the ...P1 back, not the sensor!

EDIT: Additionally, I don't think that Sony would "risk" their relationship with other makers and make a sensor "biased" to one maker... Other than that meaning that the sensor would be of very limited production as to be profitable, it also means that they would appear "biased" to competition and this could harm future profitability... IMO, P1 (which is known to be very good marketeers) is trying to take advantage out of the fact that they are "first" in the market with a FF Cmos sensor... (The same everyone would do if they where first).
 

[torger]

Don't know if it matters for any other reason than prestige. Sony is not exactly bad at making sensors. It would be interesting if P1 have affected the CFA design to bring that "MFD color" but I doubt it.

Actually I think Canon makes better balanced CFAs than Sony (easier to design neutral profiles especially in the blue range), but they're still far from the mess my Kodak sensor color is. But the real magic is in the profile in any case...

[torger]

Last night Alpa posted a picture of the 100 MP mounted with the 32HR, but later posted only the sample image of 90HR-SW instead. This isn't looking good for the 32HR if it's not BSI. Maybe Alpa will be able to surprise us.

Hopefully it only means that they posted the 90HR-SW because it's even more impressive considering sharpness and image circle.

The 32HR is the one lens to test now though with this back, I'm extremely curious on the result. I have no idea how it will perform. I would not be surprised if it's a huge disappointment, but the opposite would not be surprising either. Someone's gotta test this soon! I can't wait 

[Bo Dez]

This back really is like the second coming.

Too bad it's too late.

Most photography has transitioned to motion content, and what is left is displayed on the web, or electronically on monitors at low ppi.

It's like T-Rex showed up after the meteor crash and it had nothing left to eat.

[eronald]

It's like T-Rex showed up after the meteor crash and it had nothing left to eat.

Yes, but will it kill everything else before it starves?

Edmund