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Author Topic: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.  (Read 100258 times)

EricWHiss

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2016, 01:09:29 pm »

Congrats to Team Phase One for what sounds like a remarkable new back - one that has finally filled most wish lists.

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vjbelle

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2016, 01:11:45 pm »

I guess we can expect a more reasonably priced update from Hassy soon, and a $12K announcement from Pentax at Photokina. My pro dealer tells me the 645Z has been selling well, and so Pentax will probably want to catch the new train leaving the station.

Edmund

I certainly would hope so.....  I had hoped that the trade in would be more aggressive.  Anyone, though, who bought an IQ3 80MP CCD back is really going to feel the pain..... regardless of the upgrade policy - unless Phase just swaps the backs...... good luck with that one.

Victor
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uaiomex

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2016, 01:33:05 pm »

Is it really a Sony sensor?
Doug only says that like Sony found out, this sensor has EFC too. Is there anything magical or necessary about 40.4 X 53.7 sensors? The CCD Dalsa "FF" sensors are exactly the same size. Just wondering!
Serious congratulations to P1 for this remarkable achievement.
Eduardo
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David Watson

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2016, 01:39:00 pm »

 :D

Well I have to think carefully about whether I ditch my 42MP Sony outfit, my 50MP Hasselblad outfit, sell the house, get divorced and spend a minimum of $50k to buy this.  To be honest I do not understand why we need even more MP when we have such good solutions already.  As a business person who has watched the value of my "investment" in Hasselbad vanish I will certainly not be considering switching to this.  There may well be a few pro's who genuinely need 100mp and can easily afford it but I suspect that there will be many more well healed doctors and dentists who cannot resist the temptation to buy.

Oh by the way the A7RM2 is now selling for sub 2000 on Ebay as a new item.  Great camera, works well, nice lenses, light and you know what I can carry it wherever.

In the words of Mr Schewe "just saying".

 ;D

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Joe Towner

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2016, 02:08:37 pm »

Wondering out loud, with the Electronic First Curtain, I wonder how the 1/1600th LS sync is going to change/improve.  It's really a wiring issue, in that your strobe has to be really freaking quick with the fire, and doing it wirelessly is gonna kill batteries.  In theory, wouldn't you be able to shoot the leaf shutter at 1/800th and trigger the first curtain during the exposure by the lens, giving you a shutter of 1/1600th or faster? It wouldn't work with a focal plane as your ambient would increase as the second curtain closed.
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jng

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2016, 02:15:45 pm »

To be honest I do not understand why we need even more MP when we have such good solutions already. 

When it comes to data, more is generally better. However for most applications, the increase from 80 Mp to 100 Mp isn't such a significant gain in resolution (only 12% more pixels in the linear dimension) and you're quickly diffraction limited in any case. But size definitely matters - having cut my photographic teeth on 6x6 film, I'm not a fan of crop sensors. Thus the CMOS sensor in the full frame medium format for me is causing a major relapse of G.A.S., which for some silly reason I thought I had overcome. Luckily, the prospect of my wife shooting me (and putting me out of her misery) for even thinking along these lines, if not a cure is a pretty effective treatment. For now. I think...

- John
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Theodoros

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2016, 02:24:59 pm »

One thing that must be observed, is that the pixel size of the new Sony sensor measures equal to the 42mp FF sensor that is used on the α7rII... Is it a coincidence? Is it the same senor but tweaked? ...or is it a simple resize of the image area?
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AlterEgo

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2016, 02:32:43 pm »

Wondering out loud, with the Electronic First Curtain, I wonder how the 1/1600th LS sync is going to change/improve.
leaf shutters have shutter leaves closing in a manner that they can't use EFCS, where sensor starts exposure row by row with vertical shutter blade following that process with some delay and mechanically shielding the rows for which exposure is over...

and they typically do not produce much shutter shock at all, if they are symmetrical enough.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 02:36:21 pm by AlterEgo »
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Franzl

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2016, 03:03:14 pm »

wonder what the price in Euro is (exkl. VAT).
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2016, 03:13:23 pm »

I look forward to your analysis! Here are a gig of raws to play with:
Phase One IQ3 100mp raw file download
Doug thanks, I'm downloading the updated C1 9.0.2, but the files link is perhaps sent by email (and I couldn't enter a non USA location, if that matters)? I'll probably also have to wait for RawDigger to recognize the new Raw file format/size.

Okay, if I assume that RawDigger (RawDigger-1.2.3.435-x64.exe) reads the ISO 50 sample file correctly, then this is what I find:

ReadNoise (standard deviation)
R=5.04
G=5.04
B=5.03
G2=5.02

Blacklevel
Offset=1024 (automatic, the mean of the masked pixels is 1025.7, 1025.2, 1025.4, and 1025.4)

Saturation
R=65532
G=65532
B=65532
G2=65532

So for Dynamic Range I get for the green channels Log((65532-1024) / 5.03) / Log(2) = 13.65 stops dynamic range, instead of 15 stops. I'm not sure if the camera's 14 or 16 bit mode was used for this shot, but 13.65 stops is still impressive.

Again, this assumes that Rawdigger reads the file data correctly, and that the masked photosites contain only read-noise (QED).

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 04:16:27 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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narikin

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2016, 03:25:01 pm »

but I suspect that there will be many more well healed doctors and dentists who cannot resist the temptation to buy.

healed or heeled? nice mix up there. many doctors and dentists have definitely healed themselves with my $$.

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G_Allen

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2016, 03:41:46 pm »

Out of curiosity, how do the numbers from rawdigger compare to the sensor used in the IQ250?
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voidshatter

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2016, 03:45:57 pm »

Out of curiosity, how do the numbers from rawdigger compare to the sensor used in the IQ250?

It's slightly worse than the IQ250, despite that this IQ250's darkframe was shot at warmer temperature. I don't know how he calculated the standard deviation for the IQ3 100MP.

For this IQ250:

ReadNoise (standard deviation)
R=3.34
G=3.55
B=3.39
G2=3.53

ln((65535-1024)/3.4)/ln(2)
=   14.2 stops of DR
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 03:56:13 pm by Yunli Song »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2016, 03:57:40 pm »

It's slightly worse than the IQ250, despite that this IQ250's darkframe was shot at warmer temperature. I don't know how he calculated the standard deviation for the IQ3 100MP.

Hi,

The Read Noise you've shown, is after subtraction of the Black point, but the masked photosites are already without blackpoint offset bias. When you subtract the bias again, the left tail of the standard deviation gets clipped to 0, and the SD of the now clipped Gaussian distribution is under-represented.

Cheers,
Bart
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voidshatter

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2016, 04:05:06 pm »

Hi,

The Read Noise you've shown, is after subtraction of the Black point, but the masked photosites are already without blackpoint offset bias. When you subtract the bias again, the left tail of the standard deviation gets clipped to 0, and the SD of the now clipped Gaussian distribution is under-represented.

Cheers,
Bart

Do you mean I should read the numbers when I manually set black level to 0 for each channel?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2016, 04:13:57 pm »

Do you mean I should read the numbers when I manually set black level to 0 for each channel?

Correct, that's what I did anyway.

Oddly, when I do not subtract the blackpoint from the 100MP, the saturation values are all the same, and they are all different from subtracting a fixed amount from all color planes. MAybe RawDigger needs to be tuned a bit for this new file format.

Cheers,
Bart
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voidshatter

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2016, 04:22:03 pm »

Correct, that's what I did anyway.

Oddly, when I do not subtract the blackpoint from the 100MP, the saturation values are all the same, and they are all different from subtracting a fixed amount from all color planes. MAybe RawDigger needs to be tuned a bit for this new file format.

Cheers,
Bart

In your way of calculations the IQ250 scores 13.2 stops of DR, which is slightly below your 100MP score.

Keep in mind that if you export the IIQ file with Capture One into dng format then re-open with RawDigger you could get a different distribution of darkframe noise. I haven't played with that yet. I will see to the real-world dynamic range tests. The first thing is to identify the highlight headroom for the 100MP then decide how much aperture to compensate for a comparable ISO. For example, ISO 35 and ISO 100 are essentially the same for the IQ180. Not sure whether ISO 50 and ISO 100 will be the same for the 100MP this time.
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torger

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2016, 04:28:08 pm »

Now is the end of CCD, except for the poor people ;)

I wonder how this new sensor will do with the tech lenses though, the smaller pixel pitch is worrying, but on the other hand if it's BSI maybe it's less bad than the IQ250 anyway. The larger sensor size will require larger shift amounts too though to avoid the feel of limited movement range.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2016, 04:28:40 pm »

For those that aren't quite following the math-oriented digging around of raw file offsets...

DT will have real-world dynamic range tests available later this week. That is, photos, showing the visual difference.

eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now.
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2016, 04:32:47 pm »

I would expect the samenbase Iso as A7r2 which I think is 200.

Edmund

In your way of calculations the IQ250 scores 13.2 stops of DR, which is slightly below your 100MP score.

Keep in mind that if you export the IIQ file with Capture One into dng format then re-open with RawDigger you could get a different distribution of darkframe noise. I haven't played with that yet. I will see to the real-world dynamic range tests. The first thing is to identify the highlight headroom for the 100MP then decide how much aperture to compensate for a comparable ISO. For example, ISO 35 and ISO 100 are essentially the same for the IQ180. Not sure whether ISO 50 and ISO 100 will be the same for the 100MP this time.
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