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Author Topic: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?  (Read 2834 times)

gdh

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C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« on: January 03, 2016, 12:56:23 am »

It was so easy to do color calibration with LR(still is) using the GretagMacbeth ColorChecker now called Xrite color checker.
I'm not aware of a similar system for Capture One--I have to use the color editor to one by one edit multiple colors to get close--is there anything similar for C-1?
If I'm missing something, please tell me.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2016, 04:14:51 am »

Hi,

Just to say, Adobe had a tool all along called DNG Profile Editor that allowed for both calibration using ColorChecker Passport and tuning of colours. For some reason, the Adobe product was always ignored although being far more flexible than the Xrite solution. Both are absolutely free and both only support DNG Color Profiles.

I don't know why Xrite doesn't support Capture One, but I am pretty sure that it is related to Adobe's use of ICC profiles. Saying that "we are using ICC profiles" is like saying that we use the "latin alphabet". That alphabet is perfectly useful for writing English, German or even Finnish.

Now ICC profiles are intended to convert between two well defined colour spaces, most frequently going over a so called connection space. Also it may be said that ICC profiles are really output oriented. That is no great problem, the math is the same.

But, handling profiling the way Capture One does takes a lot of reverse engineering, and I can guess that there may be things like intellectual property to consider. Or the there may be a risk that the colour profiles could be broken.

QPCard can generate ICC profiles, but explicitely does not support Capture One or Phocus:

"Raw Converter Compatibility: This application generates profiles for Adobe Photoshop ACR and Adobe Lightroom. Icc profiles usable in linear edit raw converters can also be generated with the ICC plugin. ICC compatibility does not yet include Hasselblad Phocus or Capture One, but the necessary adjustments are currently being reviewed for release."

QPCard also has a nice, but not necessarily correct, description of the differences between DCP och ICC: http://www.qpcard.com/en_b2c/dcp_icc_profile

But, rejoice! A guy dwelling in the far, far north of Sweden developed a great tool called DCamProf. It is a very useful tool and can generate both DCP and ICC profiles. The downside is that you need to read TFM (The Fine Manuals) and it is command line based. The upside is that it can be used with any target.

http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html

A small note, shooting targets is a bit elaborate, as flare and light contamination needs to be kept low.


Best regards
Erik





It was so easy to do color calibration with LR(still is) using the GretagMacbeth ColorChecker now called Xrite color checker.
I'm not aware of a similar system for Capture One--I have to use the color editor to one by one edit multiple colors to get close--is there anything similar for C-1?
If I'm missing something, please tell me.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2016, 07:06:09 am »

It was so easy to do color calibration with LR(still is) using the GretagMacbeth ColorChecker now called Xrite color checker.
I'm not aware of a similar system for Capture One--I have to use the color editor to one by one edit multiple colors to get close--is there anything similar for C-1?
If I'm missing something, please tell me.

Hi Dennis,

I assume that as a supplier of a Professional Raw converter, Phase One considers a 24 patch target too limited for very accurate profile creation. They assume that a user can create (or buy the service to create) a dedicated ICC input profile with dedicated profile creation software, such as provided by X-rite and by using color references with many more subtle nuances of colors, and by using a highly controlled shooting setup that reduces the introduction of all sorts of contaminations (ambient reflections, glare, non-uniform lighting, aging of reference cards, etc.).

That being said, I know that a simple 24 patch chart can already help to get in the ballpark, but so do the supplied ICC profiles ...
Combined with Capture One's Advanced Color Editor tool, that would also allow to achieve rather robust personalized profiles.

An interesting development is the tool that LuLa member Anders Torger has created, DCamProf. That already can create very usable ICC (and DCP) profiles, also from a CC24, but its usage complexity (as a command line tool with many many options) also demonstrates that it is not all that simple to create a good profile, even assuming very well controlled shooting conditions, and that personal taste also plays a role in the desired 'look'.

Cheers,
Bart
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AlterEgo

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 12:07:58 pm »

It was so easy to do color calibration with LR(still is) using the GretagMacbeth ColorChecker now called Xrite color checker.
I'm not aware of a similar system for Capture One--I have to use the color editor to one by one edit multiple colors to get close--is there anything similar for C-1?
If I'm missing something, please tell me.

in addition to the relatively new tool (which is not even 1 year old) DcamProf, you were always (like for years) able to create icc/icm profiles for C1 using GmB/X-Rite ProfileMaker (it is not longer sold, but old copies still work just fine)... ProfileMaker does allow you to supply your own target measurements (so you can use any regular target consisting from a grid of patches) and illumination measurements (spectral)... C1 is used in the process to supply a specially converted .tiff to ProfileMaker... also you can just use argyll cms utilities /free, non commercial/ too (with or w/o GUI frontends like makeinputicc or compiled into binary = CoCa, or data preparation tools like rawdigger)... and there are many others too

so yes, you are missing something, this thing that you are missing is called "google"...
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AlterEgo

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2016, 12:27:20 pm »


That being said, I know that a simple 24 patch chart can already help to get in the ballpark, but so do the supplied ICC profiles ...

the issue with the supplied (for dSLR) profiles is that they bear P1's vision that some colors shall be twisted as they think the average Joe shall like (skin tones for example)... and the point of making your own profile for the vast majority of the users who do - just like those who do this for LR/ACR is just to get rid of that imposed (by Adobe or P1) vision, that's it...

Combined with Capture One's Advanced Color Editor tool, that would also allow to achieve rather robust personalized profiles.

if you goal is to get rid of P1 imposed adjustments it is really better to create your own profile, that is if you (not you personally) actually can (there is a difference between just creating something that works in C1 and something "good")

but certainly if you like the OEM profiles then Color Editor is the a good visual tool to modify LUT there.




but its usage complexity (as a command line tool with many many options)

fully GUI alternatives available, the main issues are actually to make a good shot of the target / unwanted reflections to/from the target are the most difficult issues, while illumination unevennes is a relatively easy to handle /, measure it and measure the light illuminating the target
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gdh

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2016, 11:02:47 pm »

Thanks for the feed back and suggestions.  It's appreciated.

Dennis

ErikKaffehr

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2016, 11:13:59 pm »

Hi Bart,

Anders Torger have looked into this and found that the ColorChecker patches were preferable to other targets. My understanding is that a near optimal compromise matrix is generated using an optimisation process and using many fields doesn't really help that much as you only have nine degrees of freedom.

So, although his program handles any targets, including IT-8 and ColorChecker SG, he found that the simple ColorChecker was actually best.

The way I see it, assuming that profiles provided with raw converters are correct, the major use for creating own profiles is when we want to build a profile for a specific light source, especially if the light source deviates from black body spectrum, which all cold light sources do.

Just to say, I am quite impressed by Anders Torger's work on DCamProf, and I also supplied an IT-8 and a CC shot from the P45+ for his testing.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Dennis,

I assume that as a supplier of a Professional Raw converter, Phase One considers a 24 patch target too limited for very accurate profile creation. They assume that a user can create (or buy the service to create) a dedicated ICC input profile with dedicated profile creation software, such as provided by X-rite and by using color references with many more subtle nuances of colors, and by using a highly controlled shooting setup that reduces the introduction of all sorts of contaminations (ambient reflections, glare, non-uniform lighting, aging of reference cards, etc.).

That being said, I know that a simple 24 patch chart can already help to get in the ballpark, but so do the supplied ICC profiles ...
Combined with Capture One's Advanced Color Editor tool, that would also allow to achieve rather robust personalized profiles.

An interesting development is the tool that LuLa member Anders Torger has created, DCamProf. That already can create very usable ICC (and DCP) profiles, also from a CC24, but its usage complexity (as a command line tool with many many options) also demonstrates that it is not all that simple to create a good profile, even assuming very well controlled shooting conditions, and that personal taste also plays a role in the desired 'look'.

Cheers,
Bart
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AlterEgo

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Re: C1--Why no Xrite color checker compatibility as LR has?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2016, 11:40:28 pm »

So, although his program handles any targets, including IT-8 and ColorChecker SG, he found that the simple ColorChecker was actually best.

you don't need to use all the patches - for example you can just use few select patches from CCSG, but CC24 Classic (or Passport) is easier to shoot though - it is more matte...

The way I see it, assuming that profiles provided with raw converters are correct

they often include 3rd party (to you) ideas leading to hidden exposure/brigthness correction, hue twists, etc, etc - so they are "correct" in the sense that you get a legit picture (you can certainly distinguish sky from grass and grass from skin and skin from sky), but are they "correct" ?



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