50mpixel CMOS Show down(not a test)....usage adaptations

[Phil Indeblanc]

So out of the different CMOS 50mpixel sensor adaptations, which is the least expensive and best suited for 4x5, AND hopefully use on a MF portable camera system, preferrably a Mamiya RZPro2? (Its what I have with all the glass. I might be better off getting a $1000 D version, but have a V adapter plate already).  Your thoughts....

So far I see...
Pentax 645z, not so great for using on a 4x5 at a $4000-new6800  /14bit
Hass CF-50c new at $6500-new $9500 /16bit?
Leaf Credo 50 at $20,000  /14bit?
Phase One IQ250 at $? /16bit?

any others models I missed with this sensor? Thanks!

[landscapephoto]

The Hass CF-50c is the simplest to use for you and the second cheapest.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Yes, that is the feeler I'm getting. I think its 16bit, and with my adapter on the RZ, or getting a RZproIID it maybe the best adapt for my situation.
I have heard some strong negatives on the Focus processign application. I wonder what other options the Hass files have?

[yaya]

Credo and IQ work on your RZ (or RZd should you decide to get one) with an adapter (HX701, supplied through the same dealers) that will also allow you to turn the back on the camera. Both are easy to use on a 4x5 and offer good live view (tethered or untethered), excellent LCD and USB3 connectivity if you wish to tether. And both obviously use Capture One if that is part of your current workflow.

HTH

Yair

[Phil Indeblanc]

Credo and IQ work on your RZ (or RZd should you decide to get one) with an adapter (HX701, supplied through the same dealers) that will also allow you to turn the back on the camera. Both are easy to use on a 4x5 and offer good live view (tethered or untethered), excellent LCD and USB3 connectivity if you wish to tether. And both obviously use Capture One if that is part of your current workflow.

HTH

Yair

I do use C1 in part of my workflow now as I have a tether only P1-h25 left in use. But its I can't imagine any other app thats as hard to adapt to, so its not an issue to switch.

Wouldn't a V mount Hass also work on the RZ? Maybe more likely on my non digital.?

The problem is that the Leaf and IQ solutions are at LEAST $10-15K in difference.

[Doug Peterson]

The problem is that the Leaf and IQ solutions are at LEAST $10-15K in difference.

Don't judge by the price list. Give us a call or email and we'll help close that gap.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Don't judge by the price list. Give us a call or email and we'll help close that gap.

If you think I can get a "redistributed" IQ250 for about $6500, have your phone and the espresso ready to go :-)

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

All the CMOS 50 MP sensors are actually 14 bits. They all use the same Sony sensor and ADC conversion is on chip. Vendors can put those 14 bit of data into a 16 bit container.

It's like having a litre of good wine, you can pour it into a gallon size bottle, but you still have a litre of good wine. Now, you can top up that gallon bottle with water, but that will not give you a gallon of good wine. Well, unless…

Best regards
Erik

So out of the different CMOS 50mpixel sensor adaptations, which is the least expensive and best suited for 4x5, AND hopefully use on a MF portable camera system, preferrably a Mamiya RZPro2? (Its what I have with all the glass. I might be better off getting a $1000 D version, but have a V adapter plate already).  Your thoughts....

So far I see...
Pentax 645z, not so great for using on a 4x5 at a $4000-new6800  /14bit
Hass CF-50c new at $6500-new $9500 /16bit?
Leaf Credo 50 at $20,000  /14bit?
Phase One IQ250 at $? /16bit?

any others models I missed with this sensor? Thanks!

[jsiva]

If you think I can get a "redistributed" IQ250 for about $6500, have your phone and the espresso ready to go :-)

or an IQ150 or even a Credo 50.  If there is one at that price, send me a PM!

[Phil Indeblanc]

or an IQ150 or even a Credo 50.  If there is one at that price, send me a PM!

Yes, and it doesn't have to be $6500...A nice slow arm in arm dance around it would surely be considered :-)

[Phil Indeblanc]

Hi,

All the CMOS 50 MP sensors are actually 14 bits. They all use the same Sony sensor and ADC conversion is on chip. Vendors can put those 14 bit of data into a 16 bit container.

It's like having a litre of good wine, you can pour it into a gallon size bottle, but you still have a litre of good wine. Now, you can top up that gallon bottle with water, but that will not give you a gallon of good wine. Well, unless…

Best regards
Erik

I was afraid of that/14bit...Why did Sony do that?!  Sure doesn't help further the distance in seperating it from something like the A7R2. enough about that...

Anyway, I think the IQ150 and 250 are pretty much the same apart from a halfstop in DR/? which I don't mind.

[Joe Towner]

Anyway, I think the IQ150 and 250 are pretty much the same apart from a halfstop in DR/? which I don't mind.

Wifi is the only difference between the 150 & 250.  The 250 launched first, with the 150 as a follow on for a cheaper pricepoint due to the removal of wifi.

Getting a CMOS from Phase for less than $10k isn't in their wheelhouse - you may be able to find a private, used 150, but that's really pushing it.

CFV-50c is the cheapest, readily available CMOS, and yes, there was a time when it was worth flying to Japan to get one.  Not sure if that works for you.

[BernardLanguillier]

The 14 vs 16 bits has been discussed countless times, it doesn't make any difference.

The standalone backs have real unique benefits, but 16 bits is very clearly not one of them.

Cheers,
Bernard

[tjv]

While Phocus is not as good as C1, there's nothing wrong with it. In fact, I found it easier to navigate and use than C1.

When I demoed a CFV-50c I very much liked it (I demoed it on a technical camera) and found the files went very well through Lightroom, even using the LCC / Scene Calibration plugin. Not sure how well LR dealt wtih crosstalk (I pushed the shifts quite hard, but was using a retrofocus lens).

What I did find a problem at the time–and high end some beta testers have indicated that this will be fixed, but not sure if the firmware is released yet–is that the 50c Live View refresed too slow to deal with the harsh light where I live. I couldn't have my tech cam lens wide open for critical focus as everything would blow out because the refresh was only about 11 frames per second (I'm approximating here) where as Phase/Leaf are/were doing close to 30fps. I had to stop down past f16 at least to get detail on the screen, and that's not of any use for critical focus. Again, some top name beta testers were in contact with me afterwards to say they were already testing the firmware update to improve this, but I don't know what's happened since as I ended up getting a used Credo 60 for a slightly better price than a new 50c. I've asked but no other users seem to have come across this problem, but I guess I did test under a typical, hot South Pacific blue sky.

Either way, had the 50c been the price it is now back then, I might have bought it instead of my Credo 60 save for the user interface with was not fun at all. Too slow and clunky, I much prefer the Credo touch screen and its resolution.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Mostly because the pixels don't have more than 14 but of dynamic range. So there is no information useful information transfer in excess of 14 bits. The CCD backs just transfer 12-13 bits of information and the rest is noise. It is a simple marketing lie…

It has been discussed to death here on LuLa, over at GetDPI and other places.

Best regards
Erik

I was afraid of that/14bit...Why did Sony do that?!  Sure doesn't help further the distance in seperating it from something like the A7R2. enough about that...

Anyway, I think the IQ150 and 250 are pretty much the same apart from a halfstop in DR/? which I don't mind.

[tjv]

THe DR difference between the IQ 150 and 250 should be zero. In other words they should be exactly the same.
Honestly though, if you're wanting to use an RZ and get a back in V mount, the CFV-50c is a no brainer for sure. Why pay double the money just to use C1 and for a slightly higher res screen?

EDIT: The UI is better on Phase / Leaf for certain, but in my experience owning (and loving) a Credo and testing the CFV-50c, and considering the price difference of the V mount CMOS backs you're looking at, I'd still go with the 50c. If you're talking about getting in from the ground up though and buying a purpose built digital MF tech camera AND back, it'd be hard not to go past some of the deals Linhof Studio (in the UK) have been offering on various camera options with the 50c, or the Credo 50 V mount and Actus promo some of the US dealers have been offering. The 50c is still cheaper though...

[Phil Indeblanc]

YES, I think with information overload I must have deleted the 14vs16bit washout. thanks for refresh!

I dropped the thought of the Pentax 645z as I cant deal with a couple things......1/125 flash sync(last place I read), the mounting to a 4x5 is not that ideal, the software and tether to deal with is another area that has had some issues.

I know I would be giving up a LOT of field advantage, and thats where the Pentax would be great, but that's not my main intention for a MF DB.

(BTW, I miss interpreted the Whitesheet info on the DR difference for IQ 250 vs 150, Sorry bout that)

Looks like a CFV-50c maybe the way to go for my needs.....Unless a deal falls on my head on a great Credo 50 or IQ150, 250 etc.
Maybe the new location is hiring for some part time work and I can work part of it off, ya Doug?

[torger]

Few know it but the Phase One IIQ file format also for the CCD backs stores only 14 bits... that is the 2 last bits from the 16 bit signal from the CCD ADC has been thrown away all along. So much for 16 bits. Hasselblad stored real 16 bits in the format. But of course, it doesn't matter. The reason Phase One throws away the noise bits, and the Leaf MOS sometimes even reduced the range to 13 bits (for higher ISOs) is a pure engineering decision. Any educated engineer understands that storing pure noise is just a waste and makes the files bigger for no reason.

The reason Hassy stores all bits noise and all I guess they didn't think it made the files so much bigger so they didn't really care. And sure if you use 16 bit in marketing it's even more embarrassing if you don't even store the bits. But sure those making the camera design know their stuff and have known all along that 16 bit marketing is, well, a lie.

The reason it was used in the first place I think is because the salesmen wanted some easy ways to convince the customer of a superior product. A higher number is very powerful, it's easier to just talk about this number than to point out the carefully hand-tuned color profiles and noise reduction algorithms made specifically for the camera's properties. The noise reduction has had a very clear effect on the "apparent" dynamic range (the CCDs are a lot more noisy than they look in the native raw converters), but discussing the software's superior way of suppressing camera limitations is not the easiest way to convince a customer...

[torger]

Why pay double the money just to use C1 and for a slightly higer res screen?

Capture One is one reason, and I think it actually is the tipping point in many cases. Phocus look ancient in comparison, and most(?) that use Hasselblad has a dual-software workflow, just a basic conversion in Phocus and then move to Photoshop. It's true that some do the same with Capture One (if you're a Photoshop wizard there's little reason to learn and get locked into yet another software).

Phase One has also been successful in appearing to be the "number one" prestige brand in MFD, simply put if you want the best [digital back], get Phase One. They have some minor advantages indeed, like better screen, but it's a lot of money for features similar to what you have in your $500 mobile phone, and do you really need them?

It depends on the type of customer you are. I would personally never pay double the money, I would certainly go for the CFV-50c if the V-mount is okay, and for the RZ and 4x5" it is. The CFV-50c will probably also be quite easy to sell on the second hand market when you want to upgrade or switch brands in the future, the V-mount backs are very popular among enthusiasts, and one with matching looks with the original V cameras even more so.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Indeed torger,

I use Sessions, I process and get out.
No layer brush edits, no fuss. Just the lens tools, sharpness, and main exposure, and all those on the main dev screen, and PROCESS. After that I can even deal with such a file in PS or LR.
I used to invest more and was almost going to use C1 as a catalog main program. But when they dropped the ball after I purchased Media Pro, I just didn't have the faith or the patients in using a exotic application.

If I have used it for 10+ years, have also been certed as a user yet its so forgetable, if you don't use it daily, its a slow start all the time. It just needs to conform to OS standards and then things would fall into place. ...
So its a love hate relation we have had since the change from 3.7x days. As long as the processing is on par for the Hass app, it should be fine for me.

Yes, I see 7 SOLD CFV-50c in the range of $6500, I can't see myself going too much more than that for a Credo or IQ.
(Heck I was considering the A7R2 at one point....but I think know the differences. :-)