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Author Topic: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro  (Read 7857 times)

PhilippeRouquet

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Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« on: December 01, 2015, 06:24:21 am »

I am confused about color management in C1Pro 8.x (haven't tried 9.x yet). I cannot find clear and detailed information about Color management in C1pro.

I work with Nikon D4s RAW images with a calibrated wide-gamut monitor Eizo CG277 (99% of Adobe RGB). I made the switch from the now deprecated Nikon Capture NX2 software where my working color space was set as RGB Prophoto.

In the C1 Pro 8.x Help file, it says "A RAW file is assigned a color profile once Capture One has established which camera model has been used. The RAW data is then translated to the internal working color space of Capture One and it is here that edits can be applied."
Then, in the section on "Set a permanent color space", it says "The default setting displays the image in the viewer in the color space that is selected in the highlighted Process Recipe."

I thought I would be working in the internal working color space of C1Pro both at the viewing and editing stage. Then I would only see the color space defined in the process recipe when I enabled soft-proofing and/or performed output conversion via the Process Recipe.

Can anybody please help me clarify the following :

- How do I keep the internal working color space of C1Pro when I view and edit my photos (the working color space of C1Pro is presumably as large as ProPhoto or larger)?
- How do I enable/disable the soft-proofing with a specific color profile?
- How do I enable/display the color space selected in the process recipe?

My goal is to keep the internal working color space of C1 Pro at both the viewing and editing stage until I make the decision to soft-proof with an RGB color space or icc color profile.

Also, can anybody point me to online tutorials or even an advanced course on Color Management with C1Pro ?

I do find it lacking in this extremely important topic or maybe I am unaware of other available resources.

Philippe
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 07:23:34 am »

Can anybody please help me clarify the following :

- How do I keep the internal working color space of C1Pro when I view and edit my photos (the working color space of C1Pro is presumably as large as ProPhoto or larger)?
- How do I enable/disable the soft-proofing with a specific color profile?
- How do I enable/display the color space selected in the process recipe?

My goal is to keep the internal working color space of C1 Pro at both the viewing and editing stage until I make the decision to soft-proof with an RGB color space or icc color profile.

Hi Philippe,

It's easier than you perhaps think, and easier than you are accustomed to in e.g. Adobe Photoshop.

The camera model that produced the Raw file determines which ICC profile is assigned to the Raw demosaiced data. The internal workspace is going to be larger than that, which is required to avoid clipping. You do not have to choose it. What you do need to do is tell Capture One what profile needs to be used for output, in order for C1 to convert the output to your display profile as softproof. This output profile can be manually set from the proof menu to any of the choices it can find, but it is more common to just specify the output recipe (which specifies a profile to use).

So basically Camera profile is selected automatically (based on Raw file, but can be changed manually and that can be made a default), workspace is selected automatically (cannot be changed manually), output profile is what you specify in the output recipe (which can be changed manually). The display profile is used to display the output, as softproofed so that the displayed images make sense. So things are mostly automatic, and based on your workflow.

So when you do web publishing, you may want to choose a specific output recipe for that and e.g. specify sRGB. If you only webpublish for Adobe RGB displays, you select that in the output recipe. Both should look similar on your softproofed display, besides that the aRGB recipe will make better use of the Adobe RGB display capabilities by clipping less. When you softproof with sRGB, you'll see the clipping of saturated colors, so you can already intervene by e.g. (locally) changing the processing parameters for saturation, or hue, or lightness.

When you output to e.g. an inkjet printer, you specify that media profile in the output recipe, and your display will more or less show you how it will look if the output media gamut for the specific image is not larger than your display gamut. You set the rendering intent for such out-of-gamut situations in the Color preferences.

Cheers,
Bart
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2015, 07:58:34 am »

Hi Philippe,

It's easier than you perhaps think, and easier than you are accustomed to in e.g. Adobe Photoshop.

The camera model that produced the Raw file determines which ICC profile is assigned to the Raw demosaiced data. The internal workspace is going to be larger than that, which is required to avoid clipping. You do not have to choose it. What you do need to do is tell Capture One what profile needs to be used for output, in order for C1 to convert the output to your display profile as softproof. This output profile can be manually set from the proof menu to any of the choices it can find, but it is more common to just specify the output recipe (which specifies a profile to use).

So basically Camera profile is selected automatically (based on Raw file, but can be changed manually and that can be made a default), workspace is selected automatically (cannot be changed manually), output profile is what you specify in the output recipe (which can be changed manually). The display profile is used to display the output, as softproofed so that the displayed images make sense. So things are mostly automatic, and based on your workflow.

So when you do web publishing, you may want to choose a specific output recipe for that and e.g. specify sRGB. If you only webpublish for Adobe RGB displays, you select that in the output recipe. Both should look similar on your softproofed display, besides that the aRGB recipe will make better use of the Adobe RGB display capabilities by clipping less. When you softproof with sRGB, you'll see the clipping of saturated colors, so you can already intervene by e.g. (locally) changing the processing parameters for saturation, or hue, or lightness.

When you output to e.g. an inkjet printer, you specify that media profile in the output recipe, and your display will more or less show you how it will look if the output media gamut for the specific image is not larger than your display gamut. You set the rendering intent for such out-of-gamut situations in the Color preferences.

Cheers,
Bart

Thanks Bart!
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PhilippeRouquet

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2015, 05:26:45 pm »

Thank you Bart.

This is the most exhaustive reply I could ever wish to receive.

If I understood you correctly, when I choose the menu option View -> Proof Profile -> No Profile I would remain in the internal working space of C1Pro.
When I choose to soft proof to a specific RGB profile, prepare to do an output conversion (via process recipe) or load a print profile, I set View-> Proof Profile -> to whichever is the appropriate profile.

It is unfortunate that 99.5% of Color Management guides, articles, books and tutorials deal exclusively with Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom.

I would be prepared to invest time and money in an advanced course or a good webinar on Color Management with C1 Pro.

May be David Grover could hire you for a webinar on the topic since you seem to have a thorough grasp of the subject ;-)

Best
Philippe

« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 05:30:24 pm by PhilippeRouquet »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 05:33:31 pm »

Thank you Bart.

This is the most exhaustive reply I could ever wish to receive.

If I understood you correctly, when I choose the menu option View -> Proof Profile -> No Profile I would remain in the internal working space of C1Pro.
When I choose to soft proof to a specific RGB profile, prepare to do an output conversion (via process recipe) or load a print profile, I set View-> Proof Profile -> to whichever is the appropriate profile.

It is unfortunate that 99.5% of Color Management guides, articles, books and tutorials deal exclusively with Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom.

I would be prepared to invest time and money in an advanced course or a good webinar on Color Management with C1 Pro.

May be David Grover could hire for a webinar on the topic since you seem to have a thorough grasp of the subject ;-)

Best
Philippe

We spend a good amount of time on the topic of color, color management, target evaluation, and other associated topics in our Capture One Masters Program and Phase One Cultural Heritage Specialist trainings:
https://digitaltransitions.com/event/training
http://dtdch.com/events/

PhilippeRouquet

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 05:41:13 pm »

Thanks Doug.
I live in Switzerland. Do you offer online training via Gotowebinar or other scheme?
If so, I will get in touch with you by email.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2015, 05:43:51 pm »

Can anybody please help me clarify the following :

we just spent a lot of time in a different topic about that

- How do I keep the internal working color space of C1Pro when I view and edit my photos (the working color space of C1Pro is presumably as large as ProPhoto or larger)?

you can't control the "internal working color space" - it is fixed and it is not a color space - it is camera's RGB numbers (which is not a proper colorimetric color space, albeit some people do call it "camera sensor colorspace", "camera colorspace", "sensor colorspace", etc, etc)

- How do I enable/disable the soft-proofing with a specific color profile?

to deal with proofing stuff : [view] -> [proof profile] in C1 menu

- How do I enable/display the color space selected in the process recipe?

[process recipe] -> [icc profile] in [process recipe] tool , unless I am missing what do you need ...

My goal is to keep the internal working color space of C1 Pro at both the viewing and editing stage until I make the decision to soft-proof with an RGB color space or icc color profile.

it is not under your control - you control soft proofing, output profile and input profile ("camera profiles"), which is enough for your purposes... internally nothing changes about that "working color space", which is not color space...

the pipeline is like this /very simplified/ : raw file -> C1 operations (like exposure corrections, curves, saturation, etc, etc) with camera's RGB numbers -> apply input (camera) profile -> PCS -> apply output profile -> .tiff file  __or__  raw file -> C1 operations (like exposure corrections, curves, saturation, etc, etc) with camera's RGB numbers -> apply input (camera) profile -> PCS -> apply softproof profile -> RGB color readouts in that softproof profile color space ...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 05:54:53 pm by AlterEgo »
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tho_mas

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2015, 06:05:45 pm »

you can't control the "internal working color space" - it is fixed and it is not a color space - it is camera's RGB numbers (which is not a proper colorimetric color space, albeit some people do call it "camera sensor colorspace", "camera colorspace", "sensor colorspace", etc, etc)

it is not under your control -

@AlterEgo: while your post is perfectly correct I think it's not really helpful ...
A lot of confusion comes from (earlier) naming: in C1 input profiles once were called "camera profiles" ... and some guys still call them "camera profiles". In addition, in the output tab they are still called "camera profile" up to now :-( ...
But in fact these input profiles are better desribed as "camera specific working spaces".
And then there is the so called "internal color space" ...

From a practical point of view ... with regard to a real workflow ... as a user you can preserve the actual working space by embedding the input profile ("camera profile") on output ... and in effect I think this is simply what the OP was asking for.
So the answer to the very first question ("How do I keep the internal working color space of C1Pro when I view and edit my photos") is: choose "embed camera profile" in the process recipe on output (in conjunction with "TIF" and preferably "16bit") .
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2015, 09:19:15 pm »

Thanks Doug.
I live in Switzerland. Do you offer online training via Gotowebinar or other scheme?
If so, I will get in touch with you by email.

I would check with your local Phase One dealer first. If they are not able to provide this training please email me and we will see if we can set something up.

Mike Guilbault

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2015, 09:35:26 pm »

When you output to e.g. an inkjet printer, you specify that media profile in the output recipe, and your display will more or less show you how it will look if the output media gamut for the specific image is not larger than your display gamut. You set the rendering intent for such out-of-gamut situations in the Color preferences.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart... I haven't worked with C1's printing much yet, but saying that above, do I take it to mean that when you are going to print the image (Epson 9900 for example,and Epson Cold Press Natural paper) that you should create and choose an output recipe with that paper's icc profile, even if you're not actually 'outputting' a new file, but simply printing from within C1? So, in other words, choosing that output recipe is how you softproof for that particular paper?
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Mike Guilbault

AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2015, 11:16:06 pm »

as a user you can preserve the actual working space by embedding the input profile ("camera profile") on output ... and in effect I think this is simply what the OP was asking for.

simply ask OP - what he is going to do with the .tiff generated with that "camera profile" embedded by C1 ? is he going to do camera profiling from that .tiff ? is he going then to use something like PhotoShop and do what ? select use that embedded profile as a working space (__in__ PS) - I very much doubt that his workflow was/is like that  ;D ... is he going to leave the color transform part to PS instead of C1 and select conversion to PS working space - that simply can be done by selecting the same output profile in C1 in the first place - why trouble ? or may be he is going to discard it and engage in using his own color transforms with some other icc profiles ?

and most of C1 operations that users do (exposure correction, levels, WB, curves, etc) are simply not done in PCS from camera's profile (that will be either cieLAB or cieXYZ - no other options), so by no means it can be called "actual working space"
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tho_mas

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2015, 06:01:46 am »

simply ask OP - what he is going to do with the .tiff generated with that "camera profile" embedded by C1 ?
well, the initial question was pretty clear:
Quote
How do I keep the internal working color space of C1Pro when I view and edit my photos
and - without going to much into details about an "internal working color space" - the answer is pretty clear as well: choose "embed camera profile" in the process recipe.

Quote
is he going then to use something like PhotoShop and do what ? select use that embedded profile as a working space (__in__ PS) - I very much doubt that his workflow was/is like that  ;D ...
I don't know WHY Philippe wants to keep the input profile as working space to edit his photos in. But this exactly what I do. In 99% of my photos I use C1's "camera profile" as "working space" in Photoshop (in other words: I embed the "camera profile" in my TIFs and do not convert into any other "working space"). After editing in Photoshop the files go straight from the embeded "camera profile" to a printer profile (and/or to sRGB for the web). There are a lot of good reasons for this workflkow ... but that is a different question.
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sebbe

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2015, 06:53:14 am »

... In 99% of my photos I use C1's "camera profile" as "working space" in Photoshop (in other words: I embed the "camera profile" in my TIFs and do not convert into any other "working space"). After editing in Photoshop the files go straight from the embeded "camera profile" to a printer profile (and/or to sRGB for the web). There are a lot of good reasons for this workflkow ... but that is a different question.

Thanks for that tip! :)
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AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2015, 10:48:58 am »

well, the initial question was pretty clear: and - without going to much into details about an "internal working color space" - the answer is pretty clear as well: choose "embed camera profile" in the process recipe.

no, "camera profile" can't qualify as an "internal working color space" for C1.

a simple question - for example what are those RGB numbers in C1 that exposure correction operate on internally - are they coordinates in cieLAB or cieXYZ (PCS in icc/icm "camera profiles") ? they are not...  and they, at that stage, do not depend on what you put in "process recipe" at all - no matter what "camera profile" you put there, C1 code will be still dealing with the same RGB data internally at that stage in the pipeline...

what you put in "process recipe" might, for example, affect what you see in color readouts if you designate that as proofing colorspace - but that does not make that "internal working color space" for C1...

===

my point of view is - internal working color space for a raw converter is what is used (if used at all) for the most essential operations done by user through raw converter's UI - for example exposure correction or saturation or levels or contrast... from the words of P1 developer it seems it is clear that P1 does not pay any attention to what you select in process recipe when C1 internally does those operations and C1 does not do any color transform to any proper colorimetric color space when/before doing those operations... with ACR/LR, for example, the answer is that at the stage when ACR code does those operations the data are coordinates in a color space that is ProPhotoRGB with linear gamma (gamma 1) and it is again not under user control...

now if we want to tell OP what is the most __flexible__ option for example for .tiffs exported from C1 for further processing then yes - embedding "camera profile" is the most flexible if he really wants to make decision using tools like PhotoShop.



« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:10:34 am by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2015, 10:56:11 am »

In 99% of my photos I use C1's "camera profile" as "working space" in Photoshop (in other words: I embed the "camera profile" in my TIFs and do not convert into any other "working space"). After editing in Photoshop the files go straight from the embeded "camera profile" to a printer profile (and/or to sRGB for the web). There are a lot of good reasons for this workflkow ... but that is a different question.

and that is not what OP was doing with Capture NX ... I am not disputing the merits of your workflow with PS for you - but OP 'd be clearly asking about further work in PS if his intentions were similar to yours and he didn't... so he can as well put whatever he wants in "process recipe" based on what is the purpose of the export with that recipe - but that simply does not alter what C1 is working with internally.
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tho_mas

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2015, 11:08:55 am »

no, "camera profile" can't qualify as an "internal working color space" for C1.

what you put in "process recipe" might, for example, affect what you see in color readouts if you designate that as proofing colorspace for example - but that does not make that "internal working color space"...
well ... the input profiles effectively limit the gamut you can utilize when editing - whatever you adjust, you will never exceed the gamut of the input profile (unless you boost saturation in the Adv. Color Editor).
In this sense the input profiles ("camera profiles") definitely act like a camera specific "working space" with a well defined TRC (Gamma 1.8 ) and well defined colors (gamut).

BTW: the term "camera specific working space" I've mentioned in the other thread is not mine. It's the term of one of C1's software developers.
And while even this term is not 100% accurate (therefore quotation marks) it describes pretty good how the input profiles work.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 11:17:04 am by tho_mas »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2015, 11:23:51 am »

well ... the input profiles effectively limit the gamut you can utilize when editing - whatever you adjust, you will never exceed the gamut of the input profile (unless you boost saturation in the Adv. Color Editor).

yes (with your fine print about color editor) you will never exceed on export or because color readouts go through application of that profile in readouts in them too, etc... there is no argument about this - I already noted above that it is of course correct statement (in different words) of yours that if OP wants the maximum flexibility with further post processing of .tiff generated by C1 then embedding his pref'd camera profile gives that option... but it does not sound to me that he actually does such further postprocessing with PS...

at that note I do not see further disagreements
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AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2015, 11:29:07 am »

TRC (Gamma 1.8 )
camera profile can be with whatever you make it to be... for example you can have C1's own transfer function in TRCs as a table  - hence not gamma... or 3D lut (beloved A2B0) and no TRCs at all
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PhilippeRouquet

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2015, 12:35:33 pm »

Never, in my wildest dreams, had I thought my questions would trigger so many responses. This goes to show that indeed detailed and clear instructions on color management with C1 are needed (from development).
Many thanks to all of you who provided solutions and guidance, although I must admit it is getting too technical for me at times.

Just to recap, this is where I come from and what I want to achieve:

I made the move from a workflow with Photo Mechanic and Capture NX2 to working excusively with C1. I have never used PS. I might take a 1-year course on PS when I retire, but I think C1 is such an outstanding piece of software that I feel, as an amateur nature and bird photographer, I do not need anything else. In NX2, I used Prophoto RGB 2.2 as my working space and converted to tiff aRGB for print output or to tiff Prophoto RGB 16bits to fine art labs that supported it.

My intention in C1 is to maintain the largest working space when editing and viewing and only commit to a specific profile at the proofing and conversion stage.

I understand now that I cannot control C1 internal working space and this is fine. What I want is to control proof and output and enable monitor selection (as it was done with the older version 6 of C1).

That's why I was asking what happens when I select the menu option View -> Proof Profile -> No Profile. Does that mean that I am remaining in the internal working space within the limits of my monitor profile for display? Is my monitor profile then automatically selected?

In what circumstances would you recommend to choose View -> Proof Profile -> No Profile?

Philippe
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AlterEgo

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Re: Need clarifications on Color Management in C1Pro
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2015, 01:08:07 pm »

That's why I was asking what happens when I select the menu option View -> Proof Profile -> No Profile. Does that mean that I am remaining in the internal working space within the limits of my monitor profile for display? Is my monitor profile then automatically selected?

In what circumstances would you recommend to choose View -> Proof Profile -> No Profile?

Philippe

data processing is as far as our understanding (simplifed) : raw -> raw RGB (camera's RGB numbers) -> your manipulations -> C1 applies (does color transform from raw rgb to profile's PCS) input (camera) profile /it might be modified in color editor/ -> C1 applies color profile selected for proof /does color transform from PCS to destination colorspace/ -> you see it (for example you can use color redout and see RGB coordinates in that proof profile color space /if it is RGB one/)...

now if you select proof profile = "no proof profile" then it is not applied and you see RGB coordinates as if you select in process recipe output with "embed camera profile" and in proof profile = "selected recipe" ... now what are those RGB coordinates in color readout ? I 'd assume they are PCS (of the input /camera/ profile) converted to RGB (cieXYZ -> RGB or cieLAB -> cieXYZ -> RGB) ... or rather/instead raw RGB data after C1 adjustments, but before any color transform at all - as this is logically follows from what process recipe output with "embed camera profile"  means.

my $0.02
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 01:19:07 pm by AlterEgo »
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