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Author Topic: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?  (Read 10673 times)

torger

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Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« on: November 25, 2015, 03:07:49 pm »

I've made a brief search but failed to find any pixel peep testing of the TS-E 24 II used on a 5Ds or 5Ds R. Has anyone done that? I'm a bit curious how it performs. I actually own the lens myself, but I don't have the 5Ds body.

I'm not using the Canon system much, but mostly I use a 49x37mm 50MP CCD and Schneider Digitar 35 on a Linhof Techno which gives about the same field of view, so it would be interesting with a pixel peep shoot-out to see where it currently stands.
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NancyP

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 03:23:38 pm »

Not much info. I don't have either, though I continue to consider the TS-E 24 for my 6D
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56043838  strange firmware problem?
http://blog.jholko.com/2015/06/18/canon-5dsr-and-canon-24mm-lens-options-what-is-the-best-canon-24mm-lens/   He likes it on the 5Dsr
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one iota

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 05:58:14 pm »

Naturally it was one of the first things I did  ;D

I have a large and cluttered bookcase that substitutes for a brick wall.

My lens performs admirably corner to corner on the 5Ds with the exception of one of the rotation positions where it is a little soft in one corner. The contrast is not eye popping unlike the Sigma 50 art or surprisingly the modestly priced Canon 40mm STM. The comparison with my 5D mark II images is a revelation resolution wise, as should be expected: the lens rises to the occasion.

Generally I would concur with the findings of the test the link to which was posted by NancyP: I also have the Canon 16-35 F4.

Exposure Simulation works as it should in live view so I'm not sure what the DPR poster's issue turned out to be.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 08:01:48 pm by one iota »
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Mahn England

torger

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 07:25:53 am »

But are there any pixel peep images to look at out there?

I've found some corner pixel peeps of 12mm shifted TS-E 17 on an A7r-II I think it was, and naturally that looked very blurred and smeared, but 12mm shift is extreme, and it's not the lens I was mainly interested in.
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one iota

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 04:56:13 pm »

But are there any pixel peep images to look at out there?

I've found some corner pixel peeps of 12mm shifted TS-E 17 on an A7r-II I think it was, and naturally that looked very blurred and smeared, but 12mm shift is extreme, and it's not the lens I was mainly interested in.

I've not come across any taken with the 5Ds/r.

If I was in your shoes already owning that lens and if I was able I'd borrow or rent the camera for a couple of days and find a convenient brick wall: there are lots of permutations that would need to be explored. :)
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Mahn England

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 05:03:43 pm »

But are there any pixel peep images to look at out there?

I've found some corner pixel peeps of 12mm shifted TS-E 17 on an A7r-II I think it was, and naturally that looked very blurred and smeared, but 12mm shift is extreme, and it's not the lens I was mainly interested in.

Hi Anders,

The images will have almost the same shifted corner/edge image blur on all sensor sizes, but the per-pixel-blur will scale with sensel pitch. A smaller sensel pitch will allow to extract a bit more MTF micro-contrast and limiting resolution out of the same lens, so overall per-image resolution will be higher.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 05:14:57 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

torger

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2015, 02:12:36 am »

Unfortunately the possibility to rent gear (camera bodies or lenses) in Sweden is not as good as in the US and I'm not that curious. I just thought that after this many months there should be some pixel peep examples out there.

I think it's hard to extrapolate results from lower resolution to higher, so it would be really nice to have with the 5Ds R rather than 5D mark II/III.

Back in 2012 I did this test myself:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=63265.msg508962#msg508962
by shifting a 7D APS-C sensor into the "full-frame corner" to simulate how the corner would look in a full-frame 45 megapixel sensor. The conclusion back then was that the Schneider Digitar 35mm with a 39x47mm sensor is significantly sharper. That test served as one of the reasons I later bought a second hand MFD system that year, I didn't think 135 cameras would have the lens quality to work well in higher resolutions.

Since then new high resolution lenses have been released, like the Otus, Sigma Art and indeed a few Canon lenses, but still the 24 TS-E II is the king of the hill when it comes to tilt/shift 24mm wide angle lens.

Being in MFD is quite expensive though, and with the CMOS backs the wide angle compatibility has been less good than I desire so I'm constantly interested in what the latest 135 systems can do.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:21:46 am by torger »
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torger

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 10:45:23 am »

I got a pixel peep example in a private message, I can't share it in public though.

In any case my observation from that is that if you have a good copy of the lens you definitely don't need to be ashamed about the performance when shifted. It has a clear gradual sharpness loss of course, but so does the SK35 in my MFD system. I still think the SK35 with 50MP CCD has a little bit better resolution, but I need to make a better "brick wall" test shot myself to be able to make a fair comparison. My guess is that on the extreme end the TS-E/5Ds could win due to field curvature issue of the SK35, while for moderate shifts the SK35/50MP Hassy will win.

In real prints the difference is probably insignificant though, and I think you'd need the Rodenstock Digaron-W 40 or 32 to significantly exceed the performance at this field of view, but then we're talking significant money. The SK35 lens was discontinued a while ago, but you find it on the second hand market now and then for about $1700 so it's quite good bang for the buck (which you can rarely say about anything medium format...)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 10:53:08 am by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2015, 11:22:07 am »

Hi,

I have a brand new 24TSE LII, which I use on a Sony A7rII.  I have also tried it on my friends Canon 5DIII. My experience is that my sample is not that great.

When we tried the lens on my friends Canon 5DIII it was a bit behind my friends 16-35/4 at 24 mm. When shifted I feel it is not reasonably sharp. What I also see is that a large part of the issue is lateral chromatic aberration, that corrects well in software.

I have shot a lot on my last three weeks of travel with the TSE 24/3.5 TSE LII, and I was very happy with the results. It works very well for interiors and things like that. What causes havoc is subject with high contrast corner fine detail, like tree tops.

It would be interesting to try out more samples of the 24/3.5 TSE on Canon bodies.

But just to say, in a lot of real world situations it just worked fine. But, it also failed in a lot real world situations. I have mostly used it on Sony A7rII, but also on a Canon 5DIII and I think both cameras were consistent.

I will post some raw samples in the weekend.

Best regards
Erik


I've made a brief search but failed to find any pixel peep testing of the TS-E 24 II used on a 5Ds or 5Ds R. Has anyone done that? I'm a bit curious how it performs. I actually own the lens myself, but I don't have the 5Ds body.

I'm not using the Canon system much, but mostly I use a 49x37mm 50MP CCD and Schneider Digitar 35 on a Linhof Techno which gives about the same field of view, so it would be interesting with a pixel peep shoot-out to see where it currently stands.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

marc aurel

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2015, 05:59:17 am »

I found a test I did in september with the 5DsR and the TS-E 24 L II at full shift.
Not the best weather - muddy light makes the contrast of detail very low by default. Converted in Lightroom. Shapening: 50 / 0.7 / 30 / 4

100% crops (click on the image to make sure you see it in 100%). f 8 / f 11 / f 16. near center / medium distance / shifted corner.

Great lens. When I apply shift I usually use f11 (f8 is too bad in the corners). The corners do profit a tiny bit from f 16 vs. f 11. The center does not suffer much from f 16 (which is astonisching). But to get the optimum I sometimes do "aperture stacking" - I blend the corners from the f16 with the rest of the image from the f11 shot.

But as torger said: if you have a good copy. Most ones are good I think. But after 5 years of heavy use I compared mine to the one of a friend - and his one was much better in the shifted corner. I bought a new one which you see in the test here. Sent the old one to CPS for adjustment - it came back with the same quality as the new one. So I had two perfect copys and sold one. You can see how much worse my original lens was in my older test on the A7R: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=93273.0. I did not know then, that it neede adjustment.


Marc
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 06:16:04 am by marc aurel »
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torger

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2015, 04:18:46 pm »

I assume full shift is 12mm vertical in this case (not diagonal?). In horizontal sensor orientation that puts the sensor corner at 60mm image circle diameter.

If comparing to MFD that would be about 83mm for a 48x36mm sensor and 95mm for 54x41mm.

With that in mind I'd say that the performance of the 5Ds + (good copy) TS-E 24mm II is pretty impressive.

Comparing to my SK35XL I'd say that the TS-E 24 is clearly sharper in the extreme shift, but mid-range and center the SK35XL is sharper. The SK35XL has high image quality inside 75mm image circle (corresponds to about 8mm shift in the Canon system), and then drops off very quickly and drastically outside until hard clip at 90mm. So it's a little bit apples vs oranges, the SK35 is sharper but allows smaller shifts. The Canon system is obviously superior for the larger shifts as the SK35XL does not really cope.

As 135 is 3:2 and MFD is 4:3 FOV is not easily compared, I cut the 135 frame to 32x24 (40mm diagonal) here to be comparable:

If we compare to more recent and more expensive MFD systems we have say 60 MP full-frame (54x41mm) using 40mm Rodenstock, which is about 23.6mm 135-FOV, and the 32mm which is 19mm 135-FOV. The Rodenstock 40mm is thus a good comparison in terms of FoV. However the Digarons are hard-limited to 90mm image circle which limits vertical shift with horizontal sensor to only 15mm, corresponding to about 9mm in 5Ds/TS-E 24mm terms. So to match the FoV coverage of the Canon system you need the 32mm. How well does that do near the edge? Considerably better than the 5Ds/TS-E 24mm system.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 05:08:47 pm by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2015, 04:34:23 pm »

Hi Anders,

Here are some more or less real world samples from my 24/3.5 TSE.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/TSE24_examples/20150829-_DSC0170.jpg

Two of the shots are on Canon 5DIII and the rest on Sony A7rII. Raw files included. Quite possible that I don't have a good sample.

I did some testing in my living room on test targets and they very pretty OK. Fine detail with high contrast is problematic. There is some lateral chroma, but it corrects well in Lightroom.

I have taken a lot of images I am perfectly happy with that lens.

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2015, 05:32:44 pm »

I edited and added some further comparisons with MFD alternatives in my previous post. What's really impressive with the 5Ds/TS-E combo is that you have so large shift range, MFD tech cams actually has some difficulty to compete there. For smaller shifts also the older MFD lenses have the edge.

(With the smaller 44x33mm format MFD gets more relative shift range, almost exactly the same as 5ds/TS-E, but those newer sensors like the Sony CMOS one has some angular response issues making it unfeasible to use the full image circle of the wides anyway.)

As I do landscape rather than architecture I don't have the need of very large shifts on the wides, I avoid them as the perspective distortion gets a bit too large and disturbs the composition, so the SK35XL smaller shift range is fine with me. If I would do architecture where you're from time to time forced to employ large shifts the SK35XL would feel limiting though. I could get the SK28XL, probably the most extreme digital lens ever made due to it's symmetric design and short focal length; when shifted basically only works with light-shielded sensors like the Kodak 50MP sensor I have on my Hassy back, it doesn't work well with any of the recent Phase One backs. I haven't personally tested the SK28XL but from test shots I've seen my indications is that it doesn't have the same sharp falloff like the SK35XL, so more of the 90mm image circle is actually usable.

I don't know for sure, but I think it's likely to see more issues with lens sample variations here on the wide end with large shifts involved due to very high parallelism requirements.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 05:36:57 pm by torger »
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rainer_v

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2015, 04:08:39 am »

I use the 24tse on a Sony A7r2 and i use as adapter for the canon to the emount a mirex shift adapter, which results in a second shift layer, which can be set to horizontal or vertical shift. It allows 20mm of shift  and i can compose much better, using one shift layer for the horizontal movements and the other shift layer for the vertical movements. The lens is still sharp with 20mm of shift, stopping it down to f13 or 16. Very impressive.
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rainer viertlböck
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ben730

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2015, 08:14:35 am »

I use the 24tse on a Sony A7r2 and i use as adapter for the canon to the emount a mirex shift adapter, which results in a second shift layer, which can be set to horizontal or vertical shift. It allows 20mm of shift  and i can compose much better, using one shift layer for the horizontal movements and the other shift layer for the vertical movements. The lens is still sharp with 20mm of shift, stopping it down to f13 or 16. Very impressive.


Hi Rainer
Very interesting setup! To control horizontal and vertical shift with 135 was always a compromise.
I was on the Mirex website, but could not find an adapter from Canon to the e-mount. Could you please
post a link to this adapter?
Thanks,
Ben

ben730

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2015, 08:37:09 am »

I could get the SK28XL, probably the most extreme digital lens ever made due to it's symmetric design and short focal length; when shifted basically only works with light-shielded sensors like the Kodak 50MP sensor I have on my Hassy back, it doesn't work well with any of the recent Phase One backs. I haven't personally tested the SK28XL but from test shots I've seen my indications is that it doesn't have the same sharp falloff like the SK35XL, so more of the 90mm image circle is actually usable.

Torger
I have the SK28XL since 2 weeks now and it's killer! It's a completely other league than the SK35XL (that I also like).
I use it with Kodak P25+ and Dalsa P40+ up to 20 mm shift with good results. (CF is necessary)
Regards,
Ben

rainer_v

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2015, 09:55:32 am »


Hi Rainer
Very interesting setup! To control horizontal and vertical shift with 135 was always a compromise.
I was on the Mirex website, but could not find an adapter from Canon to the e-mount. Could you please
post a link to this adapter?
Thanks,
Ben
I phoned them, asked for it and ordered it directly. Dont know why not listed on their site.
Its a new feel to work with two shift layers with 35mm.
 I bought as well kippon shift adapters to canon mount for my pentax 645 55&75mm lenses and a canon adapter for my contax35mm pc lense. So i have now a range of shift lenses from 17 (tse) over 24/35/55/75 up to 120 mm ( hasselblad lense ) , all with horizontal and vertical shifts. Its just a great setup ! In the bag is as well the great and tiny voigtländer 12mm and a canon 80-400 lense with metabones4 adapter. Not much things i cant do with this set. Disadvantage but good doable is that the canons have to be used in stopped down mode, i use them with f13.
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rainer viertlböck
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DCW

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2015, 03:04:36 pm »

I phoned them, asked for it and ordered it directly. Dont know why not listed on their site.
Its a new feel to work with two shift layers with 35mm.
 I bought as well kippon shift adapters to canon mount for my pentax 645 55&75mm lenses and a canon adapter for my contax35mm pc lense. So i have now a range of shift lenses from 17 (tse) over 24/35/55/75 up to 120 mm ( hasselblad lense ) , all with horizontal and vertical shifts. Its just a great setup ! In the bag is as well the great and tiny voigtländer 12mm and a canon 80-400 lense with metabones4 adapter. Not much things i cant do with this set. Disadvantage but good doable is that the canons have to be used in stopped down mode, i use them with f13.

Ranier - Does the 55mm Pentax have a manual aperture and have you compared the Pentax to the Hassleblad 50 ? Thanks
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rainer_v

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2015, 04:40:51 pm »

i didnt compared them directly ( mostly i am too lazy for pixelpeeping ...) cause the pentax is very good and the hassy as well.... so i take the lighter lense which is the pentax.
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rainer viertlböck
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rainer_v

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Re: Pixel peep of TS-E 24 II and Canon 5Ds R?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2015, 04:41:47 pm »

i didnt compared them directly ( mostly i am too lazy for pixelpeeping ...) cause the pentax is very good and the hassy as well.... so i take the lighter lense which is the pentax. Both have manual aperture.
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rainer viertlböck
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