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Author Topic: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera  (Read 21384 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2015, 10:12:57 am »

Yet you need the lowest possible noise, even sacrificing DR if need be (since you control the lighting anyway).
as he can get as much light as he wants and he can control contrast too it is not about S/N in deep shadows in studio in most of the cases (now certainly you can come up with the case of such subject on purpose), but S/N above those and there is no difference between modern FF sensors from Canon or Sony or Nikon/whoever makes them for Nikon (like 16mp FF)... photon shot noise is the same
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2015, 10:34:06 am »

as he can get as much light as he wants and he can control contrast too it is not about S/N in deep shadows in studio in most of the cases (now certainly you can come up with the case of such subject on purpose), but S/N above those and there is no difference between modern FF sensors from Canon or Sony or Nikon/whoever makes them for Nikon (like 16mp FF)... photon shot noise is the same

Exactly - it's about total photons captured, in other words well depth (or effective well depth) not SNR in the blacks. That means the lowest possible ISO, or even capturing multiple frames and averaging them for even less noise and greater effective well depth/lower effective ISO.

You can provide as much light as you like, but a camera can only capture so many photons before blowing out the whites. Then you need to go to multiple frames to reduce overall image noise further. Four frames with a D810 will give you an effective ISO 16.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2015, 11:13:10 am »

1- I would never shoot overexposed in a studio to pull later. Clients look at the screen and they like to see images "properly" exposed. 

Even at the expense of the final image? Where you can control dynamic range, exposing to the right, then pulling, is the easiest and best way to reduce noise in the final image.

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2- I meant that IMO there is detail lost in bright areas on the EVF. But that might have been improved since my reference is the Fuji X100S (nice camera BTW) but old.

You'd better pay attention to those bright areas. The EVF image is a representation of the RAW rendered as per the current JPEG settings. If you've adjusted these settings correctly (i.e. linearised it as much as possible), if the EVF is blown, then the RAW is either also blown or close to it, and you need to reduce the exposure.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2015, 03:01:06 pm »

You can't get 8k from a 32 mpix camera sensor.  Video aspect ratio is different.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 10:21:14 pm »

I'm sure the image quality would improve using that method, yet in my time as an assistant I worked for many pros (mostly on fashion and advertising stuff) and none of them exposed to the right. Sometimes perfection is not needed, if it's not noticeable on a printed magazine page or online, why worry about it? A little noise never killed anyone  ;)

Up until someone says, 'I want this printed big in the foyer of my hotel' or 'I want to run a triple-page spread of this', and the only answer you can give is, 'Sorry, it won't hold up'.
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peterottaway

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2015, 12:10:26 am »

Up until someone says, 'I want this printed big in the foyer of my hotel' or 'I want to run a triple-page spread of this', and the only answer you can give is, 'Sorry, it won't hold up'.

So the real world answer is almost never ?
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2015, 04:48:36 am »

So the real world answer is almost never ?

Maybe never if you're a photojournalist or commercial photographer.

If you're reproducing fine art or shooting landscapes, it's once every few prints.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2015, 05:24:36 am »

And that's something I wish Sony would address - a tougher, more powerful all-round mirrorless camera, built around the same great sensor they've developed.

Thing is, it's not an inherent advantage of the D4, 1Dx, D810 or 5D3 - there's no special technology which makes them that way. It's just a matter of size, and something any manufacturer could add if they so desired.
I'd suggest that making a ergonomic, rugged, water-resistant, dust-resistant, good battery-life, reasonably compact, camera is quite hard. Especially for a consumer electronics company like Sony, and especially as you want to keep your own costs low, quality high and time to market in check (Not that Canon and Nikon seems to do prioritize time to market that high).

Of course, most customers does not need these extreme features, meaning that Sony might prefer catering for the 80% of the potential customers that can live with D800-class quality in the above features. If they do so successfully (i.e. beating Canon/Nikon at everything up to and including D8x0/5Dx), I guess that their business model will be challenged.

I am convinced that Canon/Nikon _could_ offer a "D5-class" mirrorless camera if they so desired. Both have access to suitable sensors and are selling functional (if not large sensor) mirrorless solutions. I am guessing that a lot of the "war photographer" features would carry over from DSLR to mirrorless nicely. Up until now they have to chosen to.

-h
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 05:28:23 am by hjulenissen »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2015, 06:34:17 am »

I'd suggest that making a ergonomic, rugged, water-resistant, dust-resistant, good battery-life, reasonably compact, camera is quite hard. Especially for a consumer electronics company like Sony, and especially as you want to keep your own costs low, quality high and time to market in check (Not that Canon and Nikon seems to do prioritize time to market that high).

Of course, most customers does not need these extreme features, meaning that Sony might prefer catering for the 80% of the potential customers that can live with D800-class quality in the above features. If they do so successfully (i.e. beating Canon/Nikon at everything up to and including D8x0/5Dx), I guess that their business model will be challenged.

I am convinced that Canon/Nikon _could_ offer a "D5-class" mirrorless camera if they so desired. Both have access to suitable sensors and are selling functional (if not large sensor) mirrorless solutions. I am guessing that a lot of the "war photographer" features would carry over from DSLR to mirrorless nicely. Up until now they have to chosen to.

-h

They could do it, but not in an A7-sized body. It would have to be D810-sized in order to have similar performance and protection.

Mirrorless cameras are inherently easier to make rugged, as they have fewer (and lighter) moving parts, and lighter parts in general, making them easier to cushion against shock.
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MarkL

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2015, 08:35:36 am »

They could do it, but not in an A7-sized body. It would have to be D810-sized in order to have similar performance and protection.

I'm sure they will with an A9 series which will be more like the Leica SL

Right now though, small size needs to be something that attracts people to mirrorless cameras since EVFs and AF are not quite there yet.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2015, 09:56:42 am »

I'm sure they will with an A9 series which will be more like the Leica SL

Right now though, small size needs to be something that attracts people to mirrorless cameras since EVFs and AF are not quite there yet.

EVFs and AF aren't quite there because of the small bodies.

Big SLRs have dedicated AF chips and more battery power to drive bigger lenses faster. The PDAf works exactly the same way.

Give an SLR a weak battery and take away the processing power (to match a size-conscious mirrorless camera) and it would underperform just as much in the AF department. It's not the mirror or second AF sensor that makes for an SLR's fast AF...
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jduncan

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2015, 11:39:05 am »

Hogan on the Non Announcement :
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-non-announcement.html

" Early this week I wrote that the camera industry hadn’t hit bottom yet. Today I can write that Nikon hasn’t hit bottom yet. "

I fully agree with him, He  save me from typing a lengthly rant. Nikon should have fired the people at the top of the company during the "recovery" from the D600 debacle. And do in a public manner (not to humiliate them, but to say: we are changing and adapting to the modern world) They still don't understand the modern world,  or the link between perception and reality and social media. This is not like Canon technology preview,  Canon did show hardware and they  have a new 50mpixel camera. 

We do have a take were this could make 'some sense' : If they are in worse  condition than it seems, that is, if they don't have access to Sony sensors or toshiba ones and they don't have any alternative. They could focus on getting new hardware with new specifications but we are talking about Nikon, a slow paced company. Desperation could be related to the incoming of a new Canon pro body that will nail Nikon as the "perceptual" 3th place.  Maybe they have nothing to show or talk about?. Sony, an electronics company knows how to keep people attention and play the market.

If they solved the issue with the sensors  (either from Sony or Samsung http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8930601010/samsung-nx1-discontinued-in-europe-rumors-say-yes), and they do have new camera technology (the autofocus on the Nikon 1 series is second to none in the segment) it will show that Nikon management is simply out of touch with the modern world.

I know that some "old school" photographers will tell me that the rapid pace of Sony is counterproductive, that "pro tools" don't behave like that in the market, that it "hurts the resealing price" etc. Nikon needs to decide if they are targeting the past of the future.

Best regards,
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Lightsmith

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2015, 08:17:14 pm »

It is on schedule Nikon wise for a D5 to be released in the first quarter of 2016. It has been 4 years since the D4 was released and it came 4 years after the D3 which came a little less than 3 years after the D2x, though Nikon was under the gun to come out with a full frame DSLR with Canon selling great numbers of the 5D starting in 2005. I switched over to Canon to get the better high ISO performance and better autofocus performance their cameras provided. I switched back to Nikon with the D3 to get a pro build full frame camera and the new Nikon zoom lenses developed for this camera though at the expense of mediocre autofocus performance.

The big gain with the D5 will be the greatly increased number of autofocus sensors and hopefully much greater viewfinder coverage with cross type AF sensors. This would be reason enough for me to add one to my kit. My wife has the Olympus E-M1 camera and I was surprised at how much better the autofocus system was than that of my D810. The camera's electronic viewfinder is also great as I can see in near darkness and not take a shot and then check the rear LCD to see how it turned out and with the electronic viewfinder the camera shows what different EV settings will do before the shutter is released which is way kool.

A bonus would be a shutter as quiet as that on the D810. It is also time for Nikon to have built-in Bluetooth and a built-in GPS receiver. I can turn them off as I do with a smartphone to conserve battery power but I should have the option and this functionality should be provided on a $6500 camera and not just the $300 P&S cameras like the Nikon Coolpix AW130. It would be nice to have both card slots use the same type of memory card which ended with the D3 and is not found only in the D7200 and D750 cameras.

For wedding, wildlife, landscape, and product photography I have never needed to use a ISO setting above 6400 and 99% of the time I am at ISO 4000 or less. Making a night scene look like high noon with ISO 120,000 results in images that kill the mood and distort the scene. I can see it for sports which is artificial to start with considering the artificial lighting and artificial grass but that is about it.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2015, 08:51:43 pm »

It is on schedule Nikon wise for a D5 to be released in the first quarter of 2016. It has been 4 years since the D4 was released and it came 4 years after the D3 which came a little less than 3 years after the D2x, though Nikon was under the gun to come out with a full frame DSLR with Canon selling great numbers of the 5D starting in 2005. I switched over to Canon to get the better high ISO performance and better autofocus performance their cameras provided. I switched back to Nikon with the D3 to get a pro build full frame camera and the new Nikon zoom lenses developed for this camera though at the expense of mediocre autofocus performance.

The big gain with the D5 will be the greatly increased number of autofocus sensors and hopefully much greater viewfinder coverage with cross type AF sensors. This would be reason enough for me to add one to my kit. My wife has the Olympus E-M1 camera and I was surprised at how much better the autofocus system was than that of my D810. The camera's electronic viewfinder is also great as I can see in near darkness and not take a shot and then check the rear LCD to see how it turned out and with the electronic viewfinder the camera shows what different EV settings will do before the shutter is released which is way kool.

A lag-free EVF (or one with imperceptible lag) would be fantastic.

I'd say a more useful thing than simply having more AF points would be more intelligent AF - things like combination AF for eye/face tracking, using pattern recognition or manual selection for acquisition and densely-spaced PDAF points for tracking. Without some way to actually use all those AF points, selecting between 400 different points just becomes too time-consuming, and all the AF dots end up blocking up a lot of the viewfinder.

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A bonus would be a shutter as quiet as that on the D810. It is also time for Nikon to have built-in Bluetooth and a built-in GPS receiver. I can turn them off as I do with a smartphone to conserve battery power but I should have the option and this functionality should be provided on a $6500 camera and not just the $300 P&S cameras like the Nikon Coolpix AW130. It would be nice to have both card slots use the same type of memory card which ended with the D3 and is not found only in the D7200 and D750 cameras.

What would be useful is a USB port for charging, instead of having to take out the battery and put it in a charger. Quite often, a single battery will last all day, and USB chargers are now ubiquitous. Not to mention the many portable lithium-ion phone/device chargers which use USB, and which themselves can be charged via a car charger or solar panel. Add to that USB or WiFi transfer for transferring select files to phones, tablets and other devices too.

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For wedding, wildlife, landscape, and product photography I have never needed to use a ISO setting above 6400 and 99% of the time I am at ISO 4000 or less. Making a night scene look like high noon with ISO 120,000 results in images that kill the mood and distort the scene. I can see it for sports which is artificial to start with considering the artificial lighting and artificial grass but that is about it.

I'd probably go up to 12800. Sometimes you just need that extra bit of shutter speed to capture a moving subject, or to prevent star trails from appearing in the night sky.

That said, output needs to be as clean as possible - a clean ISO 6400 or 12800 is far more useful than the ability to shoot at ISO 204800.
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peterottaway

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2015, 11:45:42 pm »

As Sony is claiming up to  500,000 shots on the shutter It would be wise for Nikon to try for the same. OK with a DSLR with higher fps that is somewhat of a tougher ask. Nikon will definitely need to sell on its remaining advantages for sports etc.

At the likely price of a D5, leaving aside limitation on Live View and OVF, it also needs to be equal or better than what a future A7s Mark 3 will be for low light and video as well.

That is going to require some highly original ideas as well as top of the line engineering design. Is Nikon that sort of company for that future ? The D8xx and D7xx style cameras must sell in many multiples of the D4 so is the reward for effort there however good the camera is ?

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razrblck

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2015, 03:42:06 am »

As Sony is claiming up to  500,000 shots on the shutter It would be wise for Nikon to try for the same.

The D4/D4s shutter is rated for 400.000 actuations, which is not that different. Besides, shutter ratings are not a great selling point for professionals. They just give you a general idea of how much a shutter should last, but it is expected for a high end camera to last a long time and in the event of a failure you can get it replaced for free or really cheap compared to the price of a new camera body. A shutter failing is not the end of the world, and there are more important things to look for in a pro body.

Personally I wish Nikon would learn how to properly stick rubber to their cameras.
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peterottaway

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2015, 06:29:19 am »

The D4/D4s shutter is rated for 400.000 actuations, which is not that different. Besides, shutter ratings are not a great selling point for professionals. They just give you a general idea of how much a shutter should last, but it is expected for a high end camera to last a long time and in the event of a failure you can get it replaced for free or really cheap compared to the price of a new camera body. A shutter failing is not the end of the world, and there are more important things to look for in a pro body.



Unless you have a plentiful supply of cameras to hand, then a shutter failure is a life or death situation. I don't live in a mega city with 24/7 couriers or camera stores and shoot mainly in remote locations.

Yes the difference between 400,000 and 500,000 is not great,but Nikon like Canon over the last few years have both a perception and reality problem with certain pro and enthusiast photographers. The sort that read various magazines,trade journals and do try to keep up on the internet. Nikon D600 anyone ?

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kers

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2015, 07:35:30 am »

Personally I wish Nikon would learn how to properly stick rubber to their cameras.
:) i agree also on the d810 the rubber comes off... ( battery door)

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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2015, 07:49:46 am »

Unless you have a plentiful supply of cameras to hand, then a shutter failure is a life or death situation. I don't live in a mega city with 24/7 couriers or camera stores and shoot mainly in remote locations.

Surely you bring more than one camera along on a trip or an important shoot, though? I've never had a shutter fail (as a landscape photographer, I don't think any of my cameras has even reached 20k activations; I borrow action bodies when I go and shoot wildlife) but I've lost cameras to volcanoes, seawater, cold (later recovered), sandstorms, a bear and an elephant, among other things.

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Yes the difference between 400,000 and 500,000 is not great,but Nikon like Canon over the last few years have both a perception and reality problem with certain pro and enthusiast photographers. The sort that read various magazines,trade journals and do try to keep up on the internet. Nikon D600 anyone ?

Canon probably more so than Nikon. The sensor/DR issue has really hurt over the last few years, among all but the action/high ISO crowd.
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Colorado David

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Re: Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2015, 11:28:01 am »

Over the last few years I've set up time lapse shoots with an intervalometer and a Nikon D200 or D300.  Both of those bodies have gone way past the shutter actuations they were rated for.  Way, way past.  That doesn't mean the next shot it won't die.  But just saying.
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