View camera adaptation to smaller image areas... opinions on the future.

[Theodoros]

Very interesting prognosis.  I expect a smaller view camera too. Although I do not understand where the new electronic shutter is positioned, if you are right. For now, my CMV and CAB lenses work ok with my Sinar - M shatter but I was approached with the suggestion to send the CAB and CMV lenses and make them future proof with the new Sinar e-shutter. CAB lenses disappeared from the Sinar web site and they are no longer supported, with the demise of the Sinar -M.

I wonder why  would Sinar need to introduce a new focal plane shutter? If you are right and the new shutter/digiback will be the new SL.??




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Hi Yevgeny,

I believe you also had some info directly from Sinar people that there are new products under development... no? The new focal plane shutter is needed for when one uses an MFDB (a multishot one too) with a Lens without leaf shutter on... (Such as Mamiya RZ, Hasselblad F or other MF, or Sinar lenses without shutter, or even a lens that has (mechanical) leaf shutter but there is no interface to activate it)...

[ynp]

Hi Yevgeny,

I believe you also had some info directly from Sinar people that there are new products under development... no? The new focal plane shutter is needed for when one uses an MFDB (a multishot one too) with a Lens without leaf shutter on... (Such as Mamiya RZ, Hasselblad F or other MF, or Sinar lenses without shutter, or even a lens that has (mechanical) leaf shutter but there is no interface to activate it)...

Hi Theodoros,

Thanks. I see the point now. Maybe you are right. Time will tell.

Yevgeny


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[Rod.Klukas]

Thanks for confirming my marketing estimation Rod.... The Universallis option looks very promising, but isn't the associated equipment announced on Photokina '14 late? Could you please inform us on when the equipment will be released (especially the focal plane shutter) and on what is the status for MF lenses to be used on the front standard? Also, is there any research in progress for MF lens mounts with electronic aperture control?

I ask this because unless if the focal plane shutter is released, people that use MF backs with multishot ability, won't be able to use them and then, people that use both MF and FF mirrorless cameras need to use their existing series of lenses as to both keep the cost down , as well as (most important) to keep the magnitude of the equipment they use down to a minimum... Let's not forget that there are FF mirrorless with multishot ability expected from the camera makers and the customers  can then use their MF lenses on a mini size view camera, but some MF users of existing MF multishot backs, wouldn't mind cropping some of the image area if they can use their MF lenses...

For example... It would be a real blessing for me if I was able to use my Contax 645 lenses on a Universallis either with a mirrorless, or with a (future) multishot mirrorless, but it would be even better if I could use my Sinarback 54H and Blad CF-39MS back with the same lenses and just crop a bit when framing... That way, I could only carry my Contax 645 in a bag, add a DSLR body with the adapter for my C645 lenses (already have that)  & a Universallis and then avoid the extra bulk and weight to carry the Fuji GX-680 too as with only 3-5 MF lenses of the C645 I wll be able to have lenses for all the DSLR, the Contax, but the Universalis too...

As I said above the Canon electronic board should ship in December, or mid January at the latest. The Focal plane Shutter and Dex control should also come out at the same time.  We are in discussions on a Contax 645 lens board similar to the Canon type.
Please contact me if the Contax mount would be interesting to anyone out there.  The more interest we see the more inclined Arca-Swiss will be to do it.
The Universalis has been shipping in all three versions.  DSLR very popular as well as medium format size.

We do have a Hassleblad V board available now.  Hasselblad lens must have an aperture lever or button to open and stop down the aperture manually.
Hope this clears up.
Be well,
Rod

[Chris Barrett]

Contax 45-90 on a view camera?  Hmm.  I'd be into that for sure.

[ynp]

An electronic Contax 645 mount is very interesting.
Yevgeny


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[geesbert]

People always compare the devaluation of MF backs with 135 bodies. It's true that 10 year old backs are still holding their value quite well, but how much was a p25 when new? 25000$?

A few days ago I sold my Sony A7r as I had upgraded to the mark 2. Initially I was quite pissed as I got only some 900€ for it, but then I looked, exactly 2 years ago I paid 1800€ for it. I must have billed more than 100 days digital fees for it. Now I am feeling a bit bad for not giving the camera away for free.

[Chris Barrett]

Heh, that's how I looked at my digital backs.  My P65+ paid for itself in a year through capture fees. The next 4 years it was a profit center.  Devaluation isn't really a big deal to me.

[Theodoros]

As I said above the Canon electronic board should ship in December, or mid January at the latest. The Focal plane Shutter and Dex control should also come out at the same time.  We are in discussions on a Contax 645 lens board similar to the Canon type.
Please contact me if the Contax mount would be interesting to anyone out there.  The more interest we see the more inclined Arca-Swiss will be to do it.
The Universalis has been shipping in all three versions.  DSLR very popular as well as medium format size.

We do have a Hassleblad V board available now.  Hasselblad lens must have an aperture lever or button to open and stop down the aperture manually.
Hope this clears up.
Be well,
Rod

Yeah, go ahead and make  the Contax adapter Rod, it seems that everybody loves them, Leica does, Nikon & Canon (and now Sony) love them too via electronic adapters, the lenses seem to have enough image circle to even cope well with cropped (33x44) MFDB sensors, they go down to 35mm and have proved so reliable over the years that the world is full of them... Since it's as easy as Canon to imply the interface, go ahead!

[Theodoros]

Contax 45-90 on a view camera?  Hmm.  I'd be into that for sure.

That one seems to have huge image circle... doesn't it?   

[jng]

Rod,

Can the Hasselblad V boards fire the leaf shutter or do these need to be used in conjunction with a focal plane shutter?

Thanks.

John


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[Theodoros]

About the Contax 645 lenses image circle (just to end this).... There was a very interesting discussion on Get DPI where the lenses where tested on an ALPA 12 FPS with MFDB using a pre-production  ALPA shift/tilt adapter which ALPA will be releasing by the end of the year with full communication interface... http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/53400-image-circle-contax-645-lens.html . Those that are interested should find it very useful....

[Chris Barrett]

Rod,

Can the Hasselblad V boards fire the leaf shutter or do these need to be used in conjunction with a focal plane shutter?

Thanks.

John


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The 'Blad boards are just a lens mount, no shutter actuation.  I'm using it with mirrorless, which it's well suited for.  You'd def need a FPS for a digi back.

[Theodoros]

I should think that the most useful interface that a maker of view cameras may provide, should be that of the Leica S mount since it is the one that is specified with the minimum mount to light sensitive surface (among MF) distance than them all... Then one could use all the rest of the adapters that are made for the S (with interface communication or not) to mount the vast majority of MF lenses on to the same view camera without having to change the lens mount at all...

That said, there are more great lenses of the past that are currently not supported by any other mount via an adapter and that could provide marvelous solution for use on a view camera, ...some of them at a cost of a T-shirt or a pair of jeans.

Can't stop thinking that there can be a full communication interface adapter for all Rollei 6xxx/HY-6, Bronica ETRSi, SQAi & GS-1 for the "S" mount that could enable both the aperture and the leaf shutter of these lenses... Some of these lenses (like the GS-1 ones for instance), should be able I suspect to cope with even the largest MF digital sensors and I haven't heard anyone complain about the quality of the later series of Zenzanon glass, not to mention the Schneiders of the Rollei... 

I believe that the view camera market has a lot of potential if the makers take in mind the following:

1. The systems must be user friendly for beginners to enter the market,
2. The systems must be as compatible as possible with equipment that the photographer already owns and must integrate well with it,
3. The systems must offer an easy to predetermine upgrade path to higher level photography.

The recent success of "mini" view cameras is I believe a proof on to the above fundamentals since the coming of mirrorless cameras provided many of them that where abscent up to now, if lens interface communication and access to affordable lenses is assisted by the makers, I think that there can be a healthy modern market basis that will lead to market growth of the whole view camera section of the market... It should help the MF market makers too, especially if they "open" their systems, make the communication interfaces as less complicated as possible and work with view camera makers as to help them integrate their products...

I also believe that the "red dot" family is in advantage at the moment if compared to other makers and that is because they have ready a communication interface for (MF) lenses that can serve most of the existing lenses, they introduced the SL that seems to be the ideal mirrorless to use on the rear standard of a view camera using the same communication interface of the S mount and (of course) they have full control over Sinar who has both the technology & the experience as well as being a pioneer for interface implementations...

[araucaria]

I remember seeing a comparison between mamiya rz and bronica gs lenses, the mamiyas turned out to be sharper.

[Theodoros]

I remember seeing a comparison between mamiya rz and bronica gs lenses, the mamiyas turned out to be sharper.

The RZ lenses are among the best ever for MF use, but that doesn't mean that Zenzanons are worthless, the later series of all PE (for the ETRSi), PS (for the SQAi) are also very capable performers, OTOH, the RB lenses are not up to RZ quality and the Zenzanons, one can have for peanuts...

[Steve Hendrix]

I frequently use the Actus with my Olympus cameras. The main problem is that the widest lens that I am able to use with the kit is a WA 40mm Schneider Componon S. So, the effective focal length is equivalent to 80mm on a FF 35mm camera. For a brief while I had a second-hand Sony A7 that I used with the Actus. I didn't like the A7, so I sold it.

I use enlarger lenses exclusively. I've designed a universal lens shade to cut out glare. I bought most of the lenses on eBay.

My major beef with the Actus is the detente for the swing movement is sloppy. I am careful to check focus on the left and the right side of the frame to ensure accurate focus along the y-axis. This can be a bit cumbersome when stitching. I contacted Cambo just this week to tell them about the detente issue. They said the slop is deliberate and it shouldn't compromise focus. HAH! I am not the only photographer whose called them on that.


Still, I really enjoy using the Actus. I love using front tilt to get deep depth-of-field on tele lenses at f/8. I just picked up a small Manfrotto gear head for around $200 (money well spent). I do not recommend the Actus for MFD.

There are certainly different types of detent stops, even within Cambo products. The detent for a Cambo WRS horizontal geared shift is a specific click. But the detent for the swing on the Actus as you point out is less specific feeling (but this is also the same with the tilt/swing knobs of the Cambo lenspanels for the WRS cameras). Sinar view cameras employ a similar detent feel, less precise feeling.

With the Actus, you can test the swing detent by placing your hand against the back of the front standard, and as you swing, you can feel the standard pushing against your hand. Generally there should be a small area in the center (zeroed) position of the swing where you can "wiggle" the swing knob but that no swing movement can be felt by your hand. And this should be very close to zeroed out, if not precisely zeroed out. If you find that even a small amount of wiggle produces some swing movement that you can feel with your hand, or that the zeroed position rests with the standard pushed out on one side, then this could be a matter for adjustment. I recommend performing that test, and if you feel the wiggled position for zero detent doesn't reflect a zero detent value, contact your dealer (as Bob has been in contact with us).

Bob, I'm curious why you state you don't recommend the Actus for MFD?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[IanB]

I think this is a really interesting discussion - very relevant to my own circumstances.

I suspect the point raised that many pros are still using old view camera equipment and not upgrading may have something to do with the current state of play - despite a great deal of technical sophistication in several key areas the field still does not seem to have given birth to a practical, fully mature system. This is certainly the case with me: I've tried a few MFDB/tech camera set-ups and have been impressed, but not to such an extent that I am prepared to pay the shocking price, as I'm not a full-time pro. So I'm still using a Linhof Technikardan S23 with roll film and a Nikon 9000 ED scanner. It's hardly cutting edge, but I know how to use it all, and within its limits (which are not actually that bad at all) the system gives good results.

The new small-format tech cams are definitely interesting (Universalis is very appealing), but there are a few things I'd like to see before I commit to laying out that kind of money (and MFDB prices are still pretty frightening):

I'd want to be convinced of a good back format fitting with a range of proper view-camera type lenses. The actual format size is immaterial, whether it's MFDB or FF - the point is the performance to price ratio. I do appreciate the use of existing MF lenses with small format cameras, but I'd want the full view camera lens experience - including the wide angle of incidence against the sensor. The new A7rII type sensor may help here, but I have not seen it very well tested in this regard yet.

CMOS with compact live view (not tethering) is very interesting indeed - I think this is a huge step towards maturity of the products. Still only a few options, but we are definitely getting close, and the future looks good.

The loss of Copal-type shutters for view camera lenses is a worry (I do like leaf shutters, although I can work with focal plane types if necessary). So far all the electronic alternatives seem to need a chunky great control box on a wire - fine in the studio, but I work exclusively in the field. A new solution is required.

The need to shoot LCC exposures is a real deal-breaker for me. I can't see anything suiting my purposes until a digital view camera arrives which records the back-lens relationship electronically in the exposure data for compensation using the raw developer software (which may need to be proprietary). That will, I suspect, be even more expensive than current top-end MFDB solutions, but it's got to be the way forward. It will have to be frighteningly accurate for small formats, so maybe this is where MFDBs will continue to score?

Until something which meets these concerns comes along I, and I suspect a fair few others, will carry on as we are with our obsolete kit, as, in truth, it has actually not yet been rendered obsolete at all. I'm just hoping there will continue to be a good range of films available in the mean time...

[Theodoros]

I think this is a really interesting discussion - very relevant to my own circumstances.

I suspect the point raised that many pros are still using old view camera equipment and not upgrading may have something to do with the current state of play - despite a great deal of technical sophistication in several key areas the field still does not seem to have given birth to a practical, fully mature system. This is certainly the case with me: I've tried a few MFDB/tech camera set-ups and have been impressed, but not to such an extent that I am prepared to pay the shocking price, as I'm not a full-time pro. So I'm still using a Linhof Technikardan S23 with roll film and a Nikon 9000 ED scanner. It's hardly cutting edge, but I know how to use it all, and within its limits (which are not actually that bad at all) the system gives good results.

The new small-format tech cams are definitely interesting (Universalis is very appealing), but there are a few things I'd like to see before I commit to laying out that kind of money (and MFDB prices are still pretty frightening):

I'd want to be convinced of a good back format fitting with a range of proper view-camera type lenses. The actual format size is immaterial, whether it's MFDB or FF - the point is the performance to price ratio. I do appreciate the use of existing MF lenses with small format cameras, but I'd want the full view camera lens experience - including the wide angle of incidence against the sensor. The new A7rII type sensor may help here, but I have not seen it very well tested in this regard yet.

CMOS with compact live view (not tethering) is very interesting indeed - I think this is a huge step towards maturity of the products. Still only a few options, but we are definitely getting close, and the future looks good.

The loss of Copal-type shutters for view camera lenses is a worry (I do like leaf shutters, although I can work with focal plane types if necessary). So far all the electronic alternatives seem to need a chunky great control box on a wire - fine in the studio, but I work exclusively in the field. A new solution is required.

The need to shoot LCC exposures is a real deal-breaker for me. I can't see anything suiting my purposes until a digital view camera arrives which records the back-lens relationship electronically in the exposure data for compensation using the raw developer software (which may need to be proprietary). That will, I suspect, be even more expensive than current top-end MFDB solutions, but it's got to be the way forward. It will have to be frighteningly accurate for small formats, so maybe this is where MFDBs will continue to score?

Until something which meets these concerns comes along I, and I suspect a fair few others, will carry on as we are with our obsolete kit, as, in truth, it has actually not yet been rendered obsolete at all. I'm just hoping there will continue to be a good range of films available in the mean time...

Agree with everything... however, 9000ED is among the best scanners ever made, but... have you tried instead shooting the film with a multishot MFDB in true color using a great macro lens?  ...that's why I'm now selling my 9000ED...

My second concern is this...

"The need to shoot LCC exposures is a real deal-breaker for me. I can't see anything suiting my purposes until a digital view camera arrives which records the back-lens relationship electronically in the exposure data for compensation using the raw developer software (which may need to be proprietary). That will, I suspect, be even more expensive than current top-end MFDB solutions, but it's got to be the way forward. It will have to be frighteningly accurate for small formats, so maybe this is where MFDBs will continue to score?"

How come and you concluded having communication interface will be more expensive than "current top-end MFDB solutions"? ...it's only a (very cheap for the maker) cable needed to have the mount on the front standard communicate with the camera (or MFDB) on the rear standard...

Clearly, for view cameras to still have "archaic" lens to light sensitive area communication, responsible to blame is the poor LV of MFDBs... since this have changed, all of it will change! 

[Ken R]

Agree. LCCs are a pain. I do not see this changing in the future with back/lens movements. Without movements the PhaseOne A series obviously provides a great solution.

Right now the best hope is for someone (Hasselblad, Leica or Phase or even Pentax!) to release a T&S Wide Angle lens. It needs to be wider than 35mm to be of great use, say 30mm. Also a high quality ultra wide (14 or 15mm 35mm Equivalent) is basically essential for Architecture. That too is missing from the MFD systems. The best hope for that is the Leica S system since their short focal flange distance makes the design of such a lens easier.

[Theodoros]

Agree. LCCs are a pain. I do not see this changing in the future with back/lens movements. Without movements the PhaseOne A series obviously provides a great solution.

Right now the best hope is for someone (Hasselblad, Leica or Phase or even Pentax!) to release a T&S Wide Angle lens. It needs to be wider than 35mm to be of great use, say 30mm. Also a high quality ultra wide (14 or 15mm 35mm Equivalent) is basically essential for Architecture. That too is missing from the MFD systems. The best hope for that is the Leica S system since their short focal flange distance makes the design of such a lens easier.

Agree with ...half of it! ...a T&S lens would provide a wider image circle, but if Hassy would ever have bothered to provide a wider lens for the V-system, (something that the users demanded for ages and they ignored them ending up stopping the production), it being a 6x6 modern lens and with a 90mm diameter image circle, it should be enough to do the job...

I disagree for the need of UWA for architecture though... stitching can solve the problem easy.