Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 12   Go Down

Author Topic: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?  (Read 58357 times)

MoreOrLess

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
Re: body size irrelevent with big lenses, but an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #160 on: November 06, 2015, 12:49:55 am »

Agreed: clearly, when one needs big, fast lenses, body bulk is rather irrelevant.  On the other hand, one thing that is pushing many photographers towards using EVF cameras at least part of the time is the great increases in sensitivity (reduction in noise at a given ISO speed; higher usable ISO speeds, getting the same usable ISO speed in a smaller format) compared to sensors from some years ago, and even more so compared to film.  Because one way or another, this leads many of us to sometimes take photographs in ways that deliver far less light to the sensor, and hence less light to the OVF.  An EVF camera can keep the VF image as big and bright as ever by increasing the amplification (allowed by the lower noise in the newer sensors) but with an OVF, the image must get dimmer, or smaller, or some mix of both.

The situations I am thinking of include:
1) Shooting in lower light with a given lens.
2) Shooting in the same light at the same shutter speed with a higher ISO speed and higher f-stop, allowing the use of a lighter lens through the lens having a higher minimum f-stop.
3) Pushing telephoto reach further by using the same-sized lenses with a smaller format (or using them with heavier cropping, which I count as using a smaller effective format).
4) Pushing telephoto reach further by using a tele-convertor or a longer but slower lens, offsetting the f-stp with the higher usable ISO speed.

I am often in case (3): I ver owned a lens longer than 300mm for my film cameras, but the relatively lightweight MFT 75-300/4.8-6.7 gives telephoto reach as good as (actually better than) a mythical 150-600mm on those film cameras.  It would not work well on a Four Thirds SLR, because at f/6.7, the VF image would be uncomfortably dim or small, depending on the OVF magnification.


Of course, one can also use rear-screen Live View on a DSLR in this situation, but the disadvantages of doing that, especially with hand-held long lenses, have been much discussed around here!

Noise performance hasn't really changed THAT much, you compare say the a7R II to the D700 and your talking about 1/2 a stop difference. I would guess as well that noise performance is one area lots of people are always hunger for more, it really doesn't take that low light before your having to move to flash if you want decent sized noise free prints.

To me as well it just seems like your giving up a lot of the advantages of moving to FF in the first place with Sony, lenses are slow enough that low light ability and DOF control isn't any better than ASPC and there more expensive so you don't even have the advantage of cheap good performers with AF as you do with FF DSLRs.
Logged

peterottaway

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #161 on: November 06, 2015, 01:08:59 am »

Can you please provide your evidence for stating that there is only about 1/2 a stop difference between the D700 and the A7r II ? Even allowing for the fact that Sony has traditionally sacrificed a certain amount of noise control for improvements in other areas.

I ask as although I am neither a pixel peeper, engineer or in any way technically pre disposed, I do happen to have owned both cameras. And yes for quite a few things the D700 will produce decent results and prints. But then again noise results by themselves are far from being some sort of ultimate truth.
And noise like many things depends on your PP software as much as anything.

 And if we are speaking subjectively, my vision is as valid to me as yours is to you. And they would appear to definitely differ.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 01:16:50 am by peterottaway »
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #162 on: November 06, 2015, 03:58:08 am »

"We were clearing customs the other day and one of the world's past most famous models and sometimes actress was stuck in the back of customs needing money for some duty and she offered my producer her laptop for the $500 she needed.

I don't find any joy in this, just kind of sad because this business is very unforgiving and there is no union, advocate group of government that will step in as a safety net.

It's a tough gig."




We should all be made aware of how Dame Fortune swings her affections around.

However, there could be many resons for this particular girl's predicament: no ready cash in pocket; lost/expired credit card, who knows? But it could all be true at face-value, the result of hopeless management skills and drink, drugs 'n' rock 'n' roll.

When you are hot you don't think one day you're going to be not, you think it can only go one way, and there's a lot more way to go. That's if you can think at all, with all that's happening to you and all the forever lovin' crap people whisper in your ears.

I'd have hated anybody in my family to have taken up modelling as a job.

Rob C

MoreOrLess

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #163 on: November 06, 2015, 08:02:58 am »

Can you please provide your evidence for stating that there is only about 1/2 a stop difference between the D700 and the A7r II ? Even allowing for the fact that Sony has traditionally sacrificed a certain amount of noise control for improvements in other areas.

I ask as although I am neither a pixel peeper, engineer or in any way technically pre disposed, I do happen to have owned both cameras. And yes for quite a few things the D700 will produce decent results and prints. But then again noise results by themselves are far from being some sort of ultimate truth.
And noise like many things depends on your PP software as much as anything.

 And if we are speaking subjectively, my vision is as valid to me as yours is to you. And they would appear to definitely differ.

I'm going from DxO mark scores...

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D700-versus-Nikon-D800-versus-Sony-A7R-II___441_792_1035

D700 is about half a stop behind the A7R II and a quarter stop behind the D800, makes sense if you consider the D800 sensor came out between the two of them.

Whatever the hype around them the reality is that CMOS sensors have not advanced that much over the last decade in terms of pure noise performance, other areas have improve though like dynamic range.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
an EVF allows smaller lenses – for those of us who want that, not for everyone!
« Reply #164 on: November 06, 2015, 09:38:09 am »

Noise performance hasn't really changed THAT much, you compare say the a7R II to the D700 and your talking about 1/2 a stop difference.
I was looking on a longer time scale, back to early DSLRs where usable ISO 1600 was amazing progress, and also comparing back to film, from where the gain is probably four stops or more.  And I am certainly not saying that everyone is or should be using higher ISO speed options to downsize their lenses or increase telephoto reach form lenses of given size. But a great number of us are, and for that usage, an EVF (or some form of "steadily hand-holdable live view") can a great advantage over a small and/or dim OVF image.  Shooting long telephoto shots with a plan to crop heavily is one example.

One threshold I see it that, from the film era to now, the upper limit on weight and cost in telephoto lenses for a great majority of photographers is a slowish 300mm, as in something like a 75-300/3.4-5.6 zoom, whereas for a lot of bird and beast photography in un-cropped 35mm format, "wild-life begins at 500mm".  Those same 300/5.6 and slower zoom lenses now give far more reach, comparable to 35mm film with a 500mm or even far longer lens when you allow for the cropping latitude of newer sensors, but a rather poor OVF experience.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 02:48:22 pm by BJL »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #165 on: November 06, 2015, 12:32:46 pm »

J,

 Those stabilised images are great; I think mainstream in-camera stabilisers and in-camera video are the greatest real advance in twenty years.

 Canon have made great rangefinders which were used a lot by war reporters , great rugged film bodies (think F1), and now great dSLRs. I really like them but they're a bit slow to change. BTW - if anyone wants to do a straight swap of my D4 for a 1Dx, I'd be interested.

 I'm impressed the Sony body survived for the duration of the shoot.

Edmund

Optical finders in the pro motion world are limited to the Arri and then it's only the operator that sees it.

Everyone else looks at the screens.

In regards to Sony taking over the camera world, I guess you'll have to define what world.

It's a good camera, though the menus and tactile functions are still not that intuitive to me, but hey, it's a small camera.

The A7sII we just purchased is a good for low light motion imagery, though really stops at 5,000 asa which is still quite high.

In very early looks of the dailies Sony does have a sensor that covers a lot of range and can be pretty or kind of video looking, though I assume post work will correct some of this, but it's range is quite impressive.

For stills and moving subjects it just doesn't hold up in use like a professional Canon, Nikon, RED or Arri, but the project we are on isn't normal due to it's physical brutality, volume of imagery and hours worked.

For battery life we started with 6, bought 6 more with three extra chargers and were constantly charging v locks and sony batteries.

The 1dx would get through a day usually on one battery and we only changed due to safety.

But this isn't a typical shoot.  (At least I hope not.)

We had one scene where we staged and LZ on top of a sandy mountain flat top and ad the blackhawk come in low then blasted out.   

The blast was more than we expected and flipped me and the B camera operator 200 degrees over.

The Canon lenses held up, the Sony zoom I rented was shreaded.  The front glass has a crack and looks sandblasted.   

(the reason we didn't have a filter on the sony was we were using faders but the light dropped and the b operator just yanked the fader along with the protective UV filter.)

In other words he did what he had to do and we didn't have time to anticipate the blast.

I am now the proud owner of a zoom I never really wanted, (including a scar on my forehead that I hope heals over)  so if anybody is looking for a deal on a e mount lens let me know.

Anyway, if you want to see how well the floating sensor performs at speed click on the link below.  It's somewhat amazing how well the floating sensor works because the crash at hitting the foreground boats wake is like hitting a wall at 15mph in a car. 

This clip is one light graded in resolve, and the banding comes from h264 low bit rate compression.    The leveling of the horizion line comes mostly from my brain and arms as a gimble, but the smoothness of the main image is due to the Sony camera.

http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/fast_skifs.mov

BTW:    I shot this with a 1dx for the same project.



I had the Sony on board, but tossed it to the B operator, because it didn't do the stills as effective as a large 1dx which is totally tuned for still action.

Keep in mind these are violent settings and the power and bounce of these vehicles are eye opening.   The Blackhawk bounced me around like a ball in a the lottery drawing but when the 1dx was on, it was on.

Now I have to admit, I'm not enamored yet by the Sony look, but totally blown away by the range the sensor holds and how well it holds up in first light grading.

_____________________

Of the photographer mentioned, he MAY be part of a small subsection of people who excerpt power over people that can't say no.

I say may because I don't personally know first hand, I just know how he presents himself and his work

Manoli excluded because he seems to have inside information, but we seem to live in a culture where we love to build people up, (usually for the wrong reasons) then tear them down, (usually without the full story).

This has gone on forever in every industry and I'm not defending and excusing anyone and if true I find it distasteful.

I've known photographers, producers, even clients that have attempted to use their position for some very awful purposes and even though the thought is you can just say no, sometimes no is not as easy to say as it seems especially for people that are entering the industry.

In regards to Ms. Moss I've never photographed her, but find her an amazing talent.  Some people may "judge" some of her images to be lacking in morals, but celebreties walk a fine line of staying in the public eye, being bold and being chastised, not to mention being paid, all at the same time.

It's a very difficult position to be in, regardless of their pay grade.

I am always fascinated and dissapointed by the arm chair pundits that feel compelled to judge just because they've feel like they can, or maybe they're just bored.

Image making probably isn't the hardest job in the world, but it's very far from easy to have success.

The crews and on camera talent I work with are hard working beyond what most people could endure, creative and put their bodies and their personal lives at risk to do the job without complaint.

We were clearing customs the other day and one of the world's past most famous models and sometimes actress was stuck in the back of customs needing money for some duty and she offered my producer her laptop for the $500 she needed.

I don't find any joy in this, just kind of sad because this business is very unforgiving and there is no union, advocate group of government that will step in as a safety net.

It's a tough gig.

IMO

BC
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: body size irrelevent with big lenses, but an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #166 on: November 06, 2015, 04:31:00 pm »

Noise performance hasn't really changed THAT much…

I personally don't care whether it has or hasn't. The noise/grain-free "ideal" holds little interest for me. I like texture in my photos…not always but most of the time. A lot of what I've done with the A7r2 has involved ISOs at & above 12800. I use a bit of chroma NR but none of the luma variety. Looks great, and I can snap away in near darkness (with EVF amplification!) if I so desire.

-Dave-
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #167 on: November 06, 2015, 05:19:39 pm »



Thanks.  I think it's good,not great, but I just did a quick 10 minute correction in resolve from the out of camera file.  For real work we will transcode everything to prores and then see what shakes out.

The camera was hard to get and Samys pulled a lot of strings to get one to me.   We had about 4 hours to check it out before we started shooting with it.  For safety we had it in a wooden camera cage, (which I think is the best) and Ill buy an Odessy for hdmi out recording to see if that makes any difference. 

I still think the Sony looks a little "video like", but with proper post it will probably come out good.

IMO
BC

Maybe you could try the Sound Devices Pix E5 or one of its cousins - some people say it is MUCH LESS FIDDLY than the Odyssey, just gets the job done, and it IS smaller. Carts plug straight into the comp. Does less formats, for sure.

This may be worth reading:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?341485-DVX200-External-Recorder-Odyssey-7Q-and-Sound-Devices-PIX-E5H-reviewed&p=1986588535#post1986588535

I really really would like an Odyssey, but on the other hand I think it's more trouble than it's worth. It's not even the money, it's the fiddle factor. Size, carts, readers, batteries, connectors, complex menus (yes I did earn that PhD). Wonderful screen though, universal ability.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 05:25:40 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

D Fuller

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 608
    • AirStream Pictures
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #168 on: November 07, 2015, 11:07:25 pm »

Maybe you could try the Sound Devices Pix E5 or one of its cousins - some people say it is MUCH LESS FIDDLY than the Odyssey, just gets the job done, and it IS smaller. Carts plug straight into the comp. Does less formats, for sure.

This may be worth reading:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?341485-DVX200-External-Recorder-Odyssey-7Q-and-Sound-Devices-PIX-E5H-reviewed&p=1986588535#post1986588535

I really really would like an Odyssey, but on the other hand I think it's more trouble than it's worth. It's not even the money, it's the fiddle factor. Size, carts, readers, batteries, connectors, complex menus (yes I did earn that PhD). Wonderful screen though, universal ability.

Edmund

Just to stay off-topic for a moment...

I just rented an Atomos Shogun last week (to use mostly as a directors monitor) bit I tried it out on my a7s (original version) and it's really very good. Recording out to 2160p ProRes makes a significant difference in the files. And I like the device a lot. Beautiful screen, lots of exposure tools, LUTs, hdmi/SDI cross-conversion, understands record signals from both my Epic and the a7s, ProRes or DNxHD 10-bit recording with no Odessy license fees, runs a long time on a battery, and it uses plain old SSDs that I can buy at Best Buy in a pinch (with no proprietary media tax), and that can just be given to the client if they're in a rush (not that I advocate doing that without backups--but backups are at 6g SATA speeds). I'm truly impressed. It's climbed right to the top of my "want to have it" list.

Considering what I know about the Odessy--lower-res screen, very pricy proprietary media, expensive codec licenses--I can't see how I'd ever come to prefer it. I will say the VideoDevices e7 does interest me. The e5 less so. I think the screens matter. Smaller isn't always better--for me.

Logged
business website: www.airstream.pictures
blog: thirtynineframes.com/blog

MoreOrLess

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
Re: an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #169 on: November 08, 2015, 12:15:44 am »

I was looking on a longer time scale, back to early DSLRs where usable ISO 1600 was amazing progress, and also comparing back to film, from where the gain is probably four stops or more.  And I am certainly not saying that everyone is or should be using higher ISO speed options to downsize their lenses or increase telephoto reach form lenses of given size. But a great number of us are, and for that usage, an EVF (or some form of "steadily hand-holdable live view") can a great advantage over a small and/or dim OVF image.  Shooting long telephoto shots with a plan to crop heavily is one example.

One threshold I see it that, from the film era to now, the upper limit on weight and cost in telephoto lenses for a great majority of photographers is a slowish 300mm, as in something like a 75-300/3.4-5.6 zoom, whereas for a lot of bird and beast photography in un-cropped 35mm format, "wild-life begins at 500mm".  Those same 300/5.6 and slower zoom lenses now give far more reach, comparable to 35mm film with a 500mm or even far longer lens when you allow for the cropping latitude of newer sensors, but a rather poor OVF experience.

This is surely an argument for APSC over FF rather than mirrorless over DSLR? with even moderate tele use even on APSC or even m43 flange distance savings become meaningless.

It also I'd say exposes that todays FF market is not the same as the previous 35mm DSLR market, a lot of the cheaper end of the market buys APSC due to as you say the advantages of modern digital sensors in noise and crop factor. The FF digital market that remains tends to be naturally higher end users(including previous medium format film users) looking to maximise performance and as I said I think its a mistake to class low light performance of the film era as a standard people were "happy" with.

As I said even today its not as if noise isn't a problem in lower light even with an F/2.8 zoom is it? your not needing to shoot in a coalmine before it becomes a significant issue and I think it would take an extra 2-3 stops of performance at least before a lot of people were willing to give up performance on there zooms.

Honestly a lot of the hype behind Sony's FF mirrorless for me is really based on the fantasy of this wondrous thing that was coming(that a lot of people had argued for years in advance) rather than what actually arrived. People had this vague idea based on manual focus prime based rangefinders and film cameras were wideangles could be smaller without light angles being an issue that FF mirrorless would be a massive revolution in size when the reality has turned out to be much more limited. What we've actually seen IMHO is evidence of why mirrorless tech has previously been focused mostly on APSC and smaller sensors.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 02:16:25 am by MoreOrLess »
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #170 on: November 08, 2015, 02:25:29 am »

This is surely an argument for APSC over FF rather than mirrorless over DSLR? with even moderate tele use even on APSC or even m43 flange distance savings become meaningless.

It also I'd say exposes that todays FF market is not the same as the previous 35mm DSLR market, a lot of the cheaper end of the market buys APSC due to as you say the advantages of modern digital sensors in noise and crop factor. The FF digital market that remains tends to be naturally higher end users(including previous medium format film users) looking to maximise performance and as I said I think its a mistake to class low light performance of the film era as a standard people were "happy" with.

As I said even today its not as if noise isn't a problem in lower light even with an F/2.8 zoom is it? your not needing to shoot in a coalmine before it becomes a significant issue and I think it would take an extra 2-3 stops of performance at least before a lot of people were willing to give up performance on there zooms.

Honestly a lot of the hype behind Sony's FF mirrorless for me is really based on the fantasy of this wondrous thing that was coming(that a lot of people had argued for years in advance) rather than what actually arrived. People had this vague idea based on manual focus prime based rangefinders and film cameras were wideangles could be smaller without light angles being an issue that FF mirrorless would be a massive revolution in size when the reality has turned out to be much more limited. What we've actually seen IMHO is evidence of why mirrorless tech has previously been focused mostly on APSC and smaller sensors.

All the shortcomings you've described are problems associated with small size and (up until recently) the lack of backside illuminated sensors, not problems due to the lack of a mirror.

Make a mirrorless camera a similar size to an SLR and all these problems go away, while retaining all the functional advantages of through-the-sensor visualisation over an optical viewfinder. Make the sensor moveable and you'd even have adjustable flange distance, to suit any lens.

That mirrorless cameras have so many limitations at the moment is a function of this obsession with small size and the lack of space, power and everything else that small size entails, not a function of them lacking a mirror.
Logged

MoreOrLess

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
Re: an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #171 on: November 08, 2015, 02:53:49 am »

All the shortcomings you've described are problems associated with small size and (up until recently) the lack of backside illuminated sensors, not problems due to the lack of a mirror.

Make a mirrorless camera a similar size to an SLR and all these problems go away, while retaining all the functional advantages of through-the-sensor visualisation over an optical viewfinder. Make the sensor moveable and you'd even have adjustable flange distance, to suit any lens.

That mirrorless cameras have so many limitations at the moment is a function of this obsession with small size and the lack of space, power and everything else that small size entails, not a function of them lacking a mirror.

Call me sceptical that backside illuminated sensors are going to give a massive boost to performance.

I would not say that many of the weaknesses of mirrorless today are down to looking to create small cameras(obviously some handling issues are) but rather the reverse, mirrorless looks to sell itself on small size because the tech hasn't advanced enough to sell it purely on performance ti most users.

That does also I'd say hint at a logical fallacy we often see from those pushing mirrorless or rather pushing small flange distance mirrorless mounts. That is the idea that because mirrorless currently looks to sell itself on size(honestly or not) if mirrorless tech takes over the market then everyone will desire a very small camera body. Now there is obviously a market for very small cameras(although again I think FF mirrorless can't deliver this with a larger lens system) of course BUT again the reason why mirrorless is targeting this is because it can't beat the DSLR at its own game at the moment.
Logged

peterottaway

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #172 on: November 08, 2015, 04:30:37 am »

I'm not even going to try to convince anyone about ILC vs DSLR or even  EVF vs OVF. But what I do object to those who describe cameras such as the Sony A7r II as small cameras or for that matter light cameras. To me and many others who grew up with film cameras these are normal sized cameras.

Just because to you they aren't the " right " size or look with a 600/4.0 does not make them small. They are quite at home with a 300/4.0 or even a well designed 75-300 zoom lens. Just because a very small minority loves their Fat Alberts or Big Bastards doesn't make those lens /camera combinations normal. Not being f 2.8 doesn't in itself make the lenses inadequate especially when photographers can get the same results at EI 1600 instead of ISO 100 slide film or if really desperate ISO 400 negative film and prayed for something decent.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #173 on: November 08, 2015, 09:14:37 am »

I'm not even going to try to convince anyone about ILC vs DSLR or even  EVF vs OVF. But what I do object to those who describe cameras such as the Sony A7r II as small cameras or for that matter light cameras. To me and many others who grew up with film cameras these are normal sized cameras.

Just because to you they aren't the " right " size or look with a 600/4.0 does not make them small. They are quite at home with a 300/4.0 or even a well designed 75-300 zoom lens. Just because a very small minority loves their Fat Alberts or Big Bastards doesn't make those lens /camera combinations normal. Not being f 2.8 doesn't in itself make the lenses inadequate especially when photographers can get the same results at EI 1600 instead of ISO 100 slide film or if really desperate ISO 400 negative film and prayed for something decent.

The film cameras you describe were not suitable for fast action and not great for macro work - action film cameras and macro shooters (those who weren't using view cameras) also used the SLR mechanism, since that was the only way to get through-the-lens composition and eliminate parallax error, and bodies were large to accommodate automatic winders and (where it existed) AF. Sure, you could shoot action and macro with them, but it was a crapshoot. They were great for everything else, though, up to the limitations of the film itself. So are current mirrorless cameras - great for everything except action, and better than SLRs for things that don't move. And, unlike the old film cameras, no parallax issues either.

But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about bodies that can replace an SLR in all its functions - one of which is shooting fast action up to equal standard. For that, current mirrorless offerings are too small. Not from an ergonomic point of view (I'd rather a small camera myself, since you can always stick on a grip if you're ham-fisted or like to work out your biceps while shooting) but too small because they can't accommodate the power supply, multiple processors (for AF, lag-free viewfinders, frame in all rate and the like), dual cards and other features that would allow them to compete on an equal footing as an all-purpose camera. Not that these things can't be miniaturised, but, as yet, they haven't been, which means that the only way to get a mirrorless camera to match an SLR in all applications at the moment is to make it the same size as one.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #174 on: November 08, 2015, 09:35:12 am »

Call me sceptical that backside illuminated sensors are going to give a massive boost to performance.

They've already delivered a huge boost to performance with UWA lenses and lenses with a short flange distance, particularly those of a retrofocus design. BSI will only deliver a small boost to ISO performance, but are far less sensitive to angle of incidence than standard sensors.

You won't get much better high-ISO noise performance without a leap in sensor technology anyway (e.g. something that generates photoelectrons more efficiently than silicon) - read noise is already minimal, with noise dominated by photon shot noise, and microlenses are already very efficient at directing all the incoming light onto the photosites. Without a new, more sensitive material, the only way you're going to get much better quantum efficiency is by weakening the Bayer filter and sacrificing colour sensitivity.

Quote
I would not say that many of the weaknesses of mirrorless today are down to looking to create small cameras(obviously some handling issues are) but rather the reverse, mirrorless looks to sell itself on small size because the tech hasn't advanced enough to sell it purely on performance ti most users.

The tech's there. I use lag-free electronic viewfinders every day in a medical setting. Fast-focusing on-sensor AF systems are commonplace in top-level single-operator camcorders. But these things don't fit in an A7-sized body. A D810-size body, maybe.

Quote
That does also I'd say hint at a logical fallacy we often see from those pushing mirrorless or rather pushing small flange distance mirrorless mounts. That is the idea that because mirrorless currently looks to sell itself on size(honestly or not) if mirrorless tech takes over the market then everyone will desire a very small camera body. Now there is obviously a market for very small cameras(although again I think FF mirrorless can't deliver this with a larger lens system) of course BUT again the reason why mirrorless is targeting this is because it can't beat the DSLR at its own game at the moment.

I'd say it is a flow-on effect of the initial marketing push of mirrorless cameras ('SLR image quality for the size of a large point-and-shoot') that led to the current situation, rather than any deficiency in the technology. There are mirrorless systems out there - used in industry, scientific and pro cinematography settings - that are just as fast as SLRs and have imperceptible levels of viewfinder lag. But they're all SLR-sized or larger. Mirrorless was sold on its small size, so that's where they've been pushing consumer models. After all, that's an area where SLRs can never compete - from a sales perspective, why not fill the product gap first before tackling the competition head-on in their own turf?

For me, I don't care about size - I want capability. If they can deliver that in a small package, great (e.g. A7rII for landscapes and non-action). If they can't (e.g. for wildlife) then I'll take a bigger camera that can deliver. Small and light is good insofar as performance is not sacrificed. But, given the choice between a small, light camera and another camera that's larger, but more capable in the areas I need, I'll take the larger one every time.
Logged

mediumcool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 770
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #175 on: November 08, 2015, 09:37:00 am »

they release a new model every other day.

I will absolutely believe everything you post from this day forth! Not.

Hyperbole |hīˈpərbəlē|

noun

exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

hyperbolical |ˌhīpərˈbälikəl| adjective.
hyperbolically |ˌhīpərˈbälik(ə)lē| adverb.
hyperbolism |-ˌlizəm| noun

late Middle English: via Latin from Greek huperbolē (see hyperbola)
Logged
FaceBook facebook.com/ian.goss.39   www.mlkshk.com/user/mediumcool

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2015, 10:51:47 am »

Hi,

Has anyone ever measured the lag of the Sony viewfinder?

Best regards
Erik


They've already delivered a huge boost to performance with UWA lenses and lenses with a short flange distance, particularly those of a retrofocus design. BSI will only deliver a small boost to ISO performance, but are far less sensitive to angle of incidence than standard sensors.

You won't get much better high-ISO noise performance without a leap in sensor technology anyway (e.g. something that generates photoelectrons more efficiently than silicon) - read noise is already minimal, with noise dominated by photon shot noise, and microlenses are already very efficient at directing all the incoming light onto the photosites. Without a new, more sensitive material, the only way you're going to get much better quantum efficiency is by weakening the Bayer filter and sacrificing colour sensitivity.

The tech's there. I use lag-free electronic viewfinders every day in a medical setting. Fast-focusing on-sensor AF systems are commonplace in top-level single-operator camcorders. But these things don't fit in an A7-sized body. A D810-size body, maybe.

I'd say it is a flow-on effect of the initial marketing push of mirrorless cameras ('SLR image quality for the size of a large point-and-shoot') that led to the current situation, rather than any deficiency in the technology. There are mirrorless systems out there - used in industry, scientific and pro cinematography settings - that are just as fast as SLRs and have imperceptible levels of viewfinder lag. But they're all SLR-sized or larger. Mirrorless was sold on its small size, so that's where they've been pushing consumer models. After all, that's an area where SLRs can never compete - from a sales perspective, why not fill the product gap first before tackling the competition head-on in their own turf?

For me, I don't care about size - I want capability. If they can deliver that in a small package, great (e.g. A7rII for landscapes and non-action). If they can't (e.g. for wildlife) then I'll take a bigger camera that can deliver. Small and light is good insofar as performance is not sacrificed. But, given the choice between a small, light camera and another camera that's larger, but more capable in the areas I need, I'll take the larger one every time.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: an EVF allows smaller lenses
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2015, 11:01:29 am »

Hi,

Has anyone ever measured the lag of the Sony viewfinder?

Best regards
Erik

Not sure. But it's certainly more than 'imperceptible', unlike the cameras used in laparoscopic surgery (I can just imagine performing delicate surgery with lag...).

If I had to guess, I'd say 100-200ms, but don't quote me on that.
Logged

sbay

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 225
    • http://stephenbayphotography.com/
Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2015, 01:51:58 pm »

I've noticed that the EVF lag/refresh rate is not consistent. It seems much worse in low light with small apertures.

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
an EVF allows smaller lenses -- if and when one wants them, it's not obligatory!
« Reply #179 on: November 08, 2015, 09:39:14 pm »

This is surely an argument for APSC over FF rather than mirrorless over DSLR? with even moderate tele use even on APSC or even m43 flange distance savings become meaningless.

Agreed that a lot of my considerations are factors that lead some people to prefer at least some of the time to prefer a smaller format like APS-C or 4/3" or 1" - and as a secondary consequence of that, OVF performance becomes poorer, so for such formats the balance often shifts towards an EVF camera.  That is why I am unsure for now how the OVF vs EVF balance will evolve for 35mm format.  But there is also the desirability of facilitating occasional heavy cropping or "loose framing" from a high-resolution 35mm format sensor by using a lens too short to fill the frame with the subject. (The 2x virtual teleconverter mode of the Olympus OMD series is fun sometimes; I do not know if any larger format cameras offers that.)

As I said even today its not as if noise isn't a problem in lower light even with an F/2.8 zoom is it? your not needing to shoot in a coalmine before it becomes a significant issue and I think it would take an extra 2-3 stops of performance at least before a lot of people were willing to give up performance on there zooms.

Let me say it again, as you seem to be misunderstanding me, or discussing a different question like "are EVFs ready to completely replace OVFs?"  I am not saying that everyone, all the time, wants to move to smaller, lighter lenses, and so everyone should be moving to EVF cameras.  I know that some photographers still take every improvement in sensitivity as an opportunity to push ever further into high speed and low light photography with lenses as big and bright as ever. This is another reason why I can imagine OVF cameras having more of a future in 35mm format than in the smaller formats (and ironically maybe more than in the larger formats, where that "extremely limited light photography" is far less common, so I can imagine high resolution low lag EVF's taking over, slowly.)  On the the hand, there are plenty of people who prefer larger formats like 35mm primarily for advantages in IQ at lower ISO speeds, working primarily with slow-moving or stationary subjects and adequate lighting: for them, EVF cameras might be a better fit, now or soon.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 09:51:03 pm by BJL »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 12   Go Up