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Author Topic: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?  (Read 58221 times)

eronald

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Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2015, 01:32:06 pm »

Adrian,

 Stay with those trees, you're doing great :)

Edmund

i like manoli's leica analogy above as this is precisely what i feel. in fact i picked up a collapsible 90mm f4 macro elmar for the a7r ii and the results are beyond any expectation i would have had up to now. i can use it handheld at 1600asa 90-125 sec and get a 9/10 hit rate, the nearest thing i have in my archive to files that resemble this are from drum scanned kodak 400NC in 4x5 format.

the only thing is i don't have to carry a tripod, 20 dark slides, batman hood, etc... etc...
i do, however, take a spare battery.

these are as above about f.5.6. minimum ACR.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #121 on: November 02, 2015, 01:52:27 pm »

Yes, but spray 'n' pray has the secondary/primary? function of keeping models awake and enthusiasm flowing. Doing nothing makes for awkward silences and inactivity that breeds no good.  Better to keep shooting and maybe get something, than let the job die on the vine...

Rob C
seems we’re comparing apples to oranges here ... fashion photography has always employed a large number of captures, with top photographers having multiple cameras handed to them while someone else changes the film. Same with many other types of photography, such as news, sports, and sometimes wildlife photography.

Personally I’ve never felt this was “spray” and “pray”, but just good and necessary technique.

I believe Erik’s comments are based on his preference of shooting landscape photography, which finds many new photographers employing the spray and pray method, but where many experienced photographers choose a more deliberate approach.  I often only take a handful of image in a single day.  That may involve many captures since most are stitched, but on many occasions shooting 8 to 10 compositions in a day is a good day for me.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #122 on: November 02, 2015, 02:44:25 pm »

Hi,

Thanks for chiming in. The 100-200 images a day is coming from when I am shooting on travel. In many cases I take quite a few pictures on each setting. I may try different focal lengths. I also try to expose ETTR, so I shoot, chimp, adjust and reshoot. In many cases I just wait for better light. Usually there are some images for stitching and sometimes for focus stacking.

To that comes some spontaneous shooting. I like to shoot on tripod, but my last trip about half of my images were hand held, shooting folks or street.

Here are images from a complete day of shooting: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OneDaysShots/

And here is another one: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OneDaysShots/AnotherDay  in this case I revisited a historic church in Innichen, wanted some images of the town a cold autumn day and visited a small lake nearby.

Best regards
Erik



seems we’re comparing apples to oranges here ... fashion photography has always employed a large number of captures, with top photographers having multiple cameras handed to them while someone else changes the film. Same with many other types of photography, such as news, sports, and sometimes wildlife photography.

Personally I’ve never felt this was “spray” and “pray”, but just good and necessary technique.

I believe Erik’s comments are based on his preference of shooting landscape photography, which finds many new photographers employing the spray and pray method, but where many experienced photographers choose a more deliberate approach.  I often only take a handful of image in a single day.  That may involve many captures since most are stitched, but on many occasions shooting 8 to 10 compositions in a day is a good day for me.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 01:48:32 am by ErikKaffehr »
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MarkL

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2015, 03:21:46 pm »

I believe Erik’s comments are based on his preference of shooting landscape photography, which finds many new photographers employing the spray and pray method, but where many experienced photographers choose a more deliberate approach.  I often only take a handful of image in a single day.  That may involve many captures since most are stitched, but on many occasions shooting 8 to 10 compositions in a day is a good day for me.

An experienced photographer (usually!) knows much better which pictures not to take than a new photographer. Even in say fashion, where many frames is part of the process there will be many of very small variations because there is clear intent and the elements in the shot just have to come together in one frame. I don't see this as spray 'n pray as there is clear deliberate intent.
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eronald

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #124 on: November 02, 2015, 04:52:06 pm »

Yes, but spray 'n' pray has the secondary/primary? function of keeping models awake and enthusiasm flowing. Doing nothing makes for awkward silences and inactivity that breeds no good.  Better to keep shooting and maybe get something, than let the job die on the vine...

Rob C

Tires them out till they look natural.
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Rob C

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #125 on: November 02, 2015, 05:07:57 pm »

Tires them out till they look natural.

You know too much; it can ruin your illusions!

Rob C

eronald

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2015, 07:30:15 pm »

You know too much; it can ruin your illusions!

Rob C

When I was dabbling in fashion, an old  AD with lots of hours on the clock setting up shoots told me: "Your pictures are good but you are ugly and the girls don't respect you, and it shows in their expressions. Hire a pretty assistant  who chats up the girls, keep him around while you shoot.  But keep doing the pictures yourself, you are good at doing the pictures. "

I did as he suggested, and it did change the results. But that was the end of my illusions...

He was a nice guy, with real artistic ability, and an uncanny imaginative way to see the crop. Damaged retinas (surgical mistake), no job, stuck in a hotel garrett drawing a frog comicbook, ended up committing suicide about a year after I met him; that didn't make me any happier ...one realises one is now an adult when  friends or acquaintances start leaving.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:37:38 pm by eronald »
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duane_bolland

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Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #127 on: November 02, 2015, 08:46:07 pm »

In the world of serious landscape photographers, yes, I think Sony is doing well**.  However I think Sony is very minor player elsewhere.  From my viewpoint, Canon is still killing it.  About 90% of my local photo group use Canon.  The rest mostly use Nikon.  I know of only one acquaintance with a Sony and he moved from Nikon.  I was just helping a novice with a touch screen Rebel.  It was actually pretty slick. 

** By "doing well" I mean selling some products and generating lively conversations like these.  Long term profitability is another story.  Some Sony users are really pumped about the high number of new cameras being released by Sony.  I think the novelty of buying a new camera every year (and watching the old one depreciate) will get tiring fast.  How many Sony users will continue to upgrade every year?  I'd guess not many. 
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peterottaway

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Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #128 on: November 02, 2015, 11:58:54 pm »

I'm older and somewhat cynical - by the time user groups / photo clubs start showing Sony users then the statistics will be 20 years out of date.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2015, 01:04:22 am »

Hi,

Canon and Nikon release a lot of new cameras, too. The cycle between A7 and A7II generations at Sony has been pretty short, but II generation was really badly needed.

There are a lot of improvements between the A7r and A7rII, technology that was not there when the A7/A7r was released. Personally I did not jump on the A7/A7r, because I felt that they were not as advanced I wanted them to be. But the A7rII has a feature set I can live with so I think it is a keeper.

Attachment below shows release dates for > 20MP cameras from Canon and Sony. Left out Nikon because it would not fit within the screenshot.

In the same time frame Nikon released:

D3X, D4, D4s, D800/D800E, D600, D610, D810 and D750 (and perhaps some that I missed)

Best regards
Erik






** By "doing well" I mean selling some products and generating lively conversations like these.  Long term profitability is another story.  Some Sony users are really pumped about the high number of new cameras being released by Sony.  I think the novelty of buying a new camera every year (and watching the old one depreciate) will get tiring fast.  How many Sony users will continue to upgrade every year?  I'd guess not many.
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Rob C

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2015, 04:07:33 am »

When I was dabbling in fashion, an old  AD with lots of hours on the clock setting up shoots told me: "Your pictures are good but you are ugly and the girls don't respect you, and it shows in their expressions. Hire a pretty assistant  who chats up the girls, keep him around while you shoot.  But keep doing the pictures yourself, you are good at doing the pictures. "

I did as he suggested, and it did change the results. But that was the end of my illusions...

He was a nice guy, with real artistic ability, and an uncanny imaginative way to see the crop. Damaged retinas (surgical mistake), no job, stuck in a hotel garrett drawing a frog comicbook, ended up committing suicide about a year after I met him; that didn't make me any happier ...one realises one is now an adult when  friends or acquaintances start leaving.

Edmund


Edmund,

I always though that I was cute when I was young - well, right up until I was hinting at fifty. Then I realised: nope, it's not you, baby, it's the work that's attractive! Such is life and the reality we have to live with.

As for departing friends: comes the time when you imagine that it's you that's next on that departure list. I don't know it makes one feel adult, but it sure makes one see the futility of knocking your balls off to achieve this, that or the other: in the end, as long as you can eat well and feel relatively comfortable, that's the meaning of success. It always depends on things other than just how good you are yourself: who you know, who likes you and, as importantly, who hates the sight of you.

One very great business loss I suffered came about because a client's wife became pregnant. He decided that he didn't want to travel anymore during her term, and so the job was handed to somebody lower down the corporate ladder to continue... new brooms, their own familiar power structures... exit one photographer. 'Twas ever so.

Rob

synn

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2015, 04:19:04 am »

When I was dabbling in fashion, an old  AD with lots of hours on the clock setting up shoots told me: "Your pictures are good but you are ugly and the girls don't respect you, and it shows in their expressions. Hire a pretty assistant  who chats up the girls, keep him around while you shoot.  But keep doing the pictures yourself, you are good at doing the pictures. "

I did as he suggested, and it did change the results. But that was the end of my illusions...


I am guessing Terry Richardson has an endless supply of these pretty assistants, then.
No other explanation on why women keep posing for him.
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Rob C

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2015, 04:30:22 am »

I am guessing Terry Richardson has an endless supply of these pretty assistants, then.
No other explanation on why women keep posing for him.

See the above: it's the work he can give. When he can't, it'll stop immediately the word gets round. The girls don't give a flying fig for you - it's their own progress that's king, to the level of obsession. And why ever not? Why else do we network - becaue we like some of the assholes we have to deal with? Those girls can find a boyfriend anywhere, any time, even the skinny, sexless ones: it's the reflected glory of bedding a star.

Rob C

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2015, 04:48:26 am »

See the above: it's the work he can give. When he can't, it'll stop immediately the word gets round. The girls don't give a flying fig for you - it's their own progress that's king, to the level of obsession. And why ever not? Why else do we network - becaue we like some of the assholes we have to deal with? Those girls can find a boyfriend anywhere, any time, even the skinny, sexless ones: it's the reflected glory of bedding a star.

Rob C

Yes I agree.
Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Internet. :)
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eronald

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2015, 06:50:50 am »

See the above: it's the work he can give. When he can't, it'll stop immediately the word gets round. The girls don't give a flying fig for you - it's their own progress that's king, to the level of obsession. And why ever not? Why else do we network - becaue we like some of the assholes we have to deal with? Those girls can find a boyfriend anywhere, any time, even the skinny, sexless ones: it's the reflected glory of bedding a star.

Rob C

I just found a profile.

It's funny to think of all these engaged feministic magazine editors and women-empowering brands commissioning *precisely this guy* for their images. Sex, drugs and rock and roll do sell product.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/06/terry-richardson-interview.html#

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 07:02:50 am by eronald »
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Rob C

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2015, 10:08:25 am »

I just found a profile.

It's funny to think of all these engaged feministic magazine editors and women-empowering brands commissioning *precisely this guy* for their images. Sex, drugs and rock and roll do sell product.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/06/terry-richardson-interview.html#

Edmund

Thanks for the link, Edmund.

It's actually sort of sad, in its own way... fame, yet predicated upon noteriety. Then you (he) get stuck with it, and it won't go way when it's no longer convenient.

First thing I saw of his was a Kate Moss shoot where she's walking along a beach wearing a coat that ¡s open to show her wearing no pants. (I remember this because I had to buy myself a new electric razor today - the old one stopped functioning right after I recharged it.) It was a bit of a shock (the Moss pic) - it did nothing for the clothes - she was already a legend and needed none of this... I have always felt those kinds of things just smack of desperation. Buy hey, I suppose if people are on drugs, then they can't keep a sense of what's right and what's not, and I come round to thinking that the editors who let it through might be in difficult situations themselves and can't afford to get stroppy. Who knows where the bodies are buried? Maybe Terry does? If there are bodies buried.

So many casualties in fashion - both sides of the camera. Far better doing calendars; relatively clean, and most all the chicks I shot were friendly in a pleasant, undemanding way.

Rob

eronald

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2015, 10:28:16 am »

Rob,

 I think we may be the ones who don't get it. Drug excess in itself is probably fascinating for that generation; and being "bad" and sticking it to "the man" by self-destructive behaviour.  Look at  Kate Moss - officially she got benched for her notorious drug antics, in fact when she came "back" her income was multiplied. Look at the Miley Cyrus traincrash and the way her pendulum swing from "good girl" to "bad girl" has been rewarded by the industry. I think I should shut up, "Cooter" will be around in a minute to explain that we are lacking in respect to the great fashion artiste Richardson, that I defame fashion muse Moss, and trendsetter Cyrus.

Edmund

Thanks for the link, Edmund.

It's actually sort of sad, in its own way... fame, yet predicated upon noteriety. Then you (he) get stuck with it, and it won't go way when it's no longer convenient.

First thing I saw of his was a Kate Moss shoot where she's walking along a beach wearing a coat that ¡s open to show her wearing no pants. (I remember this because I had to buy myself a new electric razor today - the old one stopped functioning right after I recharged it.) It was a bit of a shock (the Moss pic) - it did nothing for the clothes - she was already a legend and needed none of this... I have always felt those kinds of things just smack of desperation. Buy hey, I suppose if people are on drugs, then they can't keep a sense of what's right and what's not, and I come round to thinking that the editors who let it through might be in difficult situations themselves and can't afford to get stroppy. Who knows where the bodies are buried? Maybe Terry does? If there are bodies buried.

So many casualties in fashion - both sides of the camera. Far better doing calendars; relatively clean, and most all the chicks I shot were friendly in a pleasant, undemanding way.

Rob
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 11:30:44 am by eronald »
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NancyP

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Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #137 on: November 03, 2015, 11:01:39 am »

At this age, the only calendar I will be involved in is the "group of cleverly posed naked middle-aged women posing for a charity gag calendar".  ;D

The only calendar I have hopes for submission is the state conservation department calendar ("November 3 - Scaup and ring-necked duck populations peak").
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nemophoto

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Re: Is Sony taking over our corner of the world?
« Reply #138 on: November 03, 2015, 11:29:56 am »

I think people are enamored with Sony simply because of the sensors. I hate to say it, but a camera system is far more than sensors -- even giving Sony Zeiss for their lenses. Personally, I hate the A7 et al cameras. They are worthless for my style of shooting. The blackout of the viewfinder when shooting is totally unacceptable. And this is why I will never use an EVF. Some people love them. I hate them. I used a friend's A7r for all of 5 minutes while doing a studio shoot recently. God did I hate the camera and it's handling. Ergonomics are awful. The friend just tried the out the latest Sony A7r2 at B&H over the weekend. He said he is so disappointed with the camera's handling, and the fact that the viewfinder blackout hasn't been addressed, that he's seriously thinking of going back to Canon, or perhaps Nikon. (He's been shooting professionally for almost 20-years doing corporate work. For that matter, I've shot professionally, 100% of my income, for almost 40, so I've used a few cameras.)

I'll take the handling of my 1Dx or 5Ds over the Sonys any day. I think they were onto something with the Alpha series (like the A99). I considered buying into that a while back, but now I'm VERY glad I stuck with a mature, comprehensive system like Canon. (The same could be said for Nikon.) Sony reminds me of an ADD kid -- onto a new lens mount before you can say "boo".
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nemophoto

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Re: Basing criticisms on extreme edge cases usually does not help
« Reply #139 on: November 03, 2015, 11:33:16 am »

seems we’re comparing apples to oranges here ... fashion photography has always employed a large number of captures, with top photographers having multiple cameras handed to them while someone else changes the film. Same with many other types of photography, such as news, sports, and sometimes wildlife photography.

Personally I’ve never felt this was “spray” and “pray”, but just good and necessary technique.

I believe Erik’s comments are based on his preference of shooting landscape photography, which finds many new photographers employing the spray and pray method, but where many experienced photographers choose a more deliberate approach.  I often only take a handful of image in a single day.  That may involve many captures since most are stitched, but on many occasions shooting 8 to 10 compositions in a day is a good day for me.

Agree completely. I think you summed it up well. As a fashion shooter, on a week long catalog, I'll shoot 15,000 frames. If I go out and shoot landscapes for myself, I'm happy with 10, if I feel they're good.
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