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Author Topic: The Future of Lightroom  (Read 48061 times)

chez

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2015, 12:20:19 am »

Exactly and for good reason. It would be suicide to remove modules, even if a few are rather lame compared to other products.
If we look at Adobe's history with both LR and for 25 years, Photoshop, removing features is slim to non existent (least we forget the last locked post on the subject of LR feature removal)  :-X

Ok...let's just let them slowly die on their stems like the fall leaves...just don't spend anymore resources on these niche functions...ones that are better done by many other products.
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Damon Lynch

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2015, 02:56:45 am »

Nah...those other modules just sit there taking up memory...

Assuming by "memory" you are talking about RAM, what empirical evidence do you have to support this claim? For instance can you prove that LR allocates memory for all its modules at program startup? Or on the contrary does it dynamically allocate RAM if and only if the user actually uses that part of the program. The former seems ludicrous; the latter mundane.
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john beardsworth

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2015, 04:15:25 am »

Nah...those other modules just sit there taking up memory...never used them, never had a need for them...but the rest of LR, library, develope and Print are great...glad they still enhance them.

Since you seem to need the book and slideshow modules and Adobe has no interest in them...maybe it is YOU who should look elsewhere.

No, the concept of Lightroom is that the user shouldn't need to build a typical workflow by stringing together other apps. It's not intended to kill off Photoshop or InDesign or the likes of Fotomagico, but Adobe rewrote and added important features to Slideshow in Lr6, and I agree with Butch that they need to do more with Book to get more people choosing it. These modules take almost no memory until you use them - that's the point of the modular architecture. And yes, the complaints would be loud if they now removed entire modules.

The lesser-used modules would benefit from routes to high end apps - eg Slideshow export to Premiere Pro, Book to Indesign. Another element would be third party access such as is successful in Web, so imagine bringing features like Photographers Ephemeris to Map.

Andrew, move on....
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:43:20 am by john beardsworth »
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Rhossydd

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #123 on: November 11, 2015, 04:26:33 am »

those other modules just sit there taking up memory
If you're that concerned you can remove them yourself. It's been documented here in the past how to do that. You might save a few megabytes of drive space, but if that makes a difference to your system you have much bigger problems that should concern you.

I like and use the Map module a fair bit, I don't want it removed.
I've used the Book module, it's OK. I'd like to see it developed more and then I'd use it more.
I use the web module, it's occasionally useful, again I'd use it more if it was even better.
I've never used the Slideshow model, but one never used option on a menu is no annoyance.
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Manoli

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #124 on: November 11, 2015, 05:32:25 am »

I like and use the Map module a fair bit, I don't want it removed.

And a whole lot more useful than Adobe's implementation of face recognition.

I've used the Book module, it's OK. I'd like to see it developed more and then I'd use it more.
I use the web module, it's occasionally useful, again I'd use it more if it was even better.
I've never used the Slideshow model, but one never used option on a menu is no annoyance.

+1
And one can hide that 'never-used-menu-option' - right click on the menu bar, untick,  and the annoyance is gone.

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hjulenissen

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2015, 06:03:44 am »

...It's ironic that Adobe is clearly moving LR to a subscription model and like Photoshop, can't seem to come up with very interesting new features but interesting bugs. The Import dialog debacle in the last release is kind of a wakeup call. [/font]
Wait... was not this subscription model motivated by bringing their customers a constant flow of new, inspiring features direct from the developers, free from the bureaucratic reigns of monolithic waterfall-developed and QA tested releases?

-h
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ButchM

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2015, 06:16:22 am »

Wait... was not this subscription model motivated by bringing their customers a constant flow of new, inspiring features direct from the developers, free from the bureaucratic reigns of monolithic waterfall-developed and QA tested releases?

-h

Yep ... that's how they put it ...
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ButchM

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2015, 06:57:29 am »

Nah...those other modules just sit there taking up memory...never used them, never had a need for them...but the rest of LR, library, develope and Print are great...glad they still enhance them.

Wow ... Adobe did something chez isn't fully behind and enamored with?  Why I thought Adobe could never do anything chez would question ... is that sound I hear in the distance Hell freezing over?  ::)

Who gets to decide which modules are niche? Do you ignore all the comments from other Lr users (maybe not here but at FM, the U2U forum or the feedback forum) that consider the database features of Library as unnecessary 'bloat' ... that they believe a simple browser would be more valuable? ... Or ... that according to some stories and polls I've seen over the years, that it is a minority of Lr users that actually print their own images ... a lot of casual users (which are the greater majority, by your own previous comments here and elsewhere) seem to be intimidated by the whole color management process and simply use commercial options for their printing needs rather than investing time and effort learning the Print module.

So ... if Adobe looks at allocating resources to save chez more 'memory' ... you'd be happy if they let such modules die on the vine? ... Or would you lobby for the further inclusion or development?

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Since you seem to need the book and slideshow modules and Adobe has no interest in them...maybe it is YOU who should look elsewhere.

Unlike you ... I have never suggested that Adobe ignore the concerns, wishes and desires other users have for Lightroom. I have never once lobbied or requested the Lr Team allocate resources only on what I desire ... I don't pay the licensing fees charged to others, why should I get to dictate their desires and considerations?

You see ... it was Adobe, not me, not you and not any other single user, that included a Slideshow module with Lr ... that came from Adobe on Day One. My only contention is, if they are going to include a Slideshow module, they put forth the same effort and the same level of attention to detail they have done with Print, Library and Develop (even though the heavy lifting for Develop is done outside of Lr) By doing so, the overall value of Lr would increase exponentially. Which would make the app even more attractive to potential users ... likely more so than a revamped Import dialog would.

Likewise, the Book, Maps and Facial recognition were added after the fact .... by Adobe, of their own free will ... again, if they are going to include them ... they should be consistent ... They did a fair job with Maps ... but dropped the ball in significant and unexplainable ways with Book and Facial recognition.

The fact that Slideshow and Books may not be as popular, as you would like to think, is not a result of, most users do not wish to create slideshows or books in Lr ... it has to do with the less than stellar approach Adobe has placed upon those tools. I contend, if Adobe offered such options on par with say, Print ... both would see much more extensive use building a much more loyal user base.

But you go ahead ... tell your fellow users they are not worthy of attention by Adobe and their licensing fees are insignificant because chez is more concerned about saving his 'memory' than if his fellow Lightroom users have the tools they desire ... some of which were included by Adobe since Lightroom's inception.
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chez

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2015, 09:03:06 am »

No, the concept of Lightroom is that the user shouldn't need to build a typical workflow by stringing together other apps. It's not intended to kill off Photoshop or InDesign or the likes of Fotomagico for more control, but Adobe rewrote and added important features to Slideshow in Lr6, and I agree with Bruce that they need to do more with Book to get more people choosing it. These modules take almost no memory until you use them - that's the point of the modular architecture. And yes, the complaints would be loud if they now removed entire modules.

The lesser-used modules would benefit from routes to high end apps - eg Slideshow export to Premiere Pro, Book to Indesign. Another element would be third party access such as is successful in Web, so imagine bringing features like Photographers Ephemeris to Map.

Andrew, move on....

I don't believe in the kitchen sink approach where everything I ever want to do with an image needs to be done from a single application developed by the same group of resources. This leads to bloat wear and not the best in class in any of the modules. I'd rather have Adobe concentrate on the core modules and make them best in class rather than dilute their resources over a wide range of features and not excel at anything.

There are reasons why plugins like NIK are so popular...it is because their teams were focused on a single application and they excelled at it while the LR resources were scattered over a much larger feature space and lacked finness in any of them.

Why not add Video editing and production into LR? What about music editing and production? What about web design using your images...the sky is the limit...what makes slideshows and book designs any different.

Let's make this do-it-all...but nothing very well product...no thanks.
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GrahamBy

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2015, 10:05:36 am »

Nah...those other modules just sit there taking up memory...

Do you believe that is a significant issue given a typical 500G system drive? How many extra photos do you imagine suppressing those modules would allow you to store?
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john beardsworth

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2015, 10:11:39 am »

I don't believe in the kitchen sink approach where everything I ever want to do with an image needs to be done from a single application developed by the same group of resources. This leads to bloat wear and not the best in class in any of the modules. I'd rather have Adobe concentrate on the core modules and make them best in class rather than dilute their resources over a wide range of features and not excel at anything.

There are reasons why plugins like NIK are so popular...it is because their teams were focused on a single application and they excelled at it while the LR resources were scattered over a much larger feature space and lacked finness in any of them.

Why not add Video editing and production into LR? What about music editing and production? What about web design using your images...the sky is the limit...what makes slideshows and book designs any different.

Let's make this do-it-all...but nothing very well product...no thanks.

You might not believe in it, but that's the concept and it's been pretty successful. Stringing together "best of breed" apps came at the price of efficiency and consistency (ever tried transferring colour labels between apps?). But there will often come a point where your needs are so niche you'll need specialist apps.

Yes, why not add some more video editing into Lr? After all, Lr is aimed at aspirational photographers and their cameras shoot video nowadays. We can already trim video and add some global adjustments by a roundabout way (creating a preset from a JPEG capture frame), and I'd love to have local adjustments and spot healing too. But that strikes me as the limit. Music has no place - you can't create it with a camera. Web design, no, web output - obviously yes. It's not hard to define Lr's limits when you try.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:14:48 pm by john beardsworth »
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ButchM

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2015, 11:46:31 am »

I don't believe in the kitchen sink approach where everything I ever want to do with an image needs to be done from a single application developed by the same group of resources.


How long have you been using Lightroom? ... Do you have ANY clue about Lightroom's conception and introduction? Were you around, and did you participate in the early beta stages of Lr? Were you one of the 500,000 participants in that foundational, community-based project? If you were, you'd soon see how small and insignificant (not to mention, selfish) your view really is.

Thank goodness, we don't have to be bound by what you 'believe' ...

Still having great difficulty believing you found something Adobe did that is negative in scope. You usually have a very different attitude about such things. Very puzzling indeed.
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chez

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #132 on: November 11, 2015, 03:36:00 pm »

You might not believe in it, but that's the concept and it's been pretty successful. Stringing together "best of breed" apps came at the price of efficiency and consistency (ever tried transferring colour labels between apps?). But there will often come a point where your needs are so niche you'll need specialist apps.

Yes, why not add some more video editing into Lr? After all, Lr is aimed at aspirational photographers and their cameras shoot video nowadays. We can already trim video and add some global adjustments by a roundabout way (creating a preset from a JPEG capture frame), and I'd love to have local adjustments and spot healing too. But that strikes me as the limit. Music has no place - you can't create it with a camera. Web design, no, web output - obviously yes. It's not hard to define Lr's limits when you try.

Why not music...after all I use music for my slideshows. Why not web design after all images are used for web design. Why arbitrarily limit the functions...once you open up the lid...let's get creative. Let's create this behemoth application that does everything...but does nothing well.
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chez

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #133 on: November 11, 2015, 03:47:50 pm »

How long have you been using Lightroom? ... Do you have ANY clue about Lightroom's conception and introduction? Were you around, and did you participate in the early beta stages of Lr? Were you one of the 500,000 participants in that foundational, community-based project? If you were, you'd soon see how small and insignificant (not to mention, selfish) your view really is.

Thank goodness, we don't have to be bound by what you 'believe' ...

Still having great difficulty believing you found something Adobe did that is negative in scope. You usually have a very different attitude about such things. Very puzzling indeed.

Butch, I've been using LR from it's beginnings, so you don't need to beat your chest about being there from day 1. I know what it's like to try develop and maintain a product that has a very large breadth of functionality. It is hard to be experts in all the different fields from DAM, to image processing, to colour management, to printing...let alone having the expertise in slideshows, book creation etc...

It is extremely hard to compete against a product that just focuses on book creation or slideshow creation. You will have this big behemoth slow advancing product competing against small single focused products. You'll be sacrificing functionality and capabilities just to keep it with LR. Basically, it is what you are getting today...and it sounds like you don't like it.

I'd rather Adobe focus on integrating with 3rd party products and let these 3rd parties do what they do best. The best move Adobe ever did was develop the ability for 3rd parties to add fictionality to LR and the like of NIK etc... Have greatly expanded the usefulness of LR. That is what Adobe needs to focus on...not creating slideshow software...let the people who know all about slideshows take on that job.

The kitchen sink approach to products always leads to big complex slow products...always. 
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john beardsworth

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #134 on: November 11, 2015, 04:20:40 pm »

Why not music...after all I use music for my slideshows. Why not web design after all images are used for web design. Why arbitrarily limit the functions...once you open up the lid...let's get creative. Let's create this behemoth application that does everything...but does nothing well.

No, your "creative" is nothing of the sort. Lightroom has a logic to its limits, and I gave the logic which Adobe have consistently applied. Cameras can't create music, so support for music is limited to photographers using it in slideshows and web galleries. Designing web sites is a very different task from photographers using images in web galleries, which they can do. Most cameras nowadays do take video, so Lr already has basic editing features but is not going to be a video production environment.
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ButchM

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2015, 04:41:37 pm »

Butch, I've been using LR from it's beginnings, so you don't need to beat your chest about being there from day 1.

Wasn't beating my chest ... just pointing out that Lr was NEVER intended to be a singular or limited tool. Some seem to forget that fact when it is convenient.

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I know what it's like to try develop and maintain a product that has a very large breadth of functionality. It is hard to be experts in all the different fields from DAM, to image processing, to colour management, to printing...let alone having the expertise in slideshows, book creation etc...

So now you know more than Adobe? You don't think they knew what a larger breadth of functionality would entail. Suddenly you don't think they are capable of producing a solution that is both capable and efficient? When it comes to performance, it isn't the existence of or the invocation of Book and Slideshow modules that are holding back the application.

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It is extremely hard to compete against a product that just focuses on book creation or slideshow creation. You will have this big behemoth slow advancing product competing against small single focused products. You'll be sacrificing functionality and capabilities just to keep it with LR. Basically, it is what you are getting today...and it sounds like you don't like it.

Perhaps you have too little faith in a company that exceeds $4B in annual revenue ... I personally don't think the task is that difficult for the likes of engineers that crunch the code at Adobe. I think they have plenty of talent, expertise and the resources to take on such tasks. What we have today where Books and Slideshow fall short is not due to the difficulty of the task ... or the result of a behemoth solution ... it is the lack of effort and the absence of a decision to offer a better product. There is a difference between ability and scope. Adobe has the ability.

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I'd rather Adobe focus on integrating with 3rd party products and let these 3rd parties do what they do best. The best move Adobe ever did was develop the ability for 3rd parties to add fictionality to LR and the like of NIK etc... Have greatly expanded the usefulness of LR. That is what Adobe needs to focus on...not creating slideshow software...let the people who know all about slideshows take on that job.

Yes and No. There is expanding functionality and there is adding more work. Yes, you can invoke Nik and other options ... but you have to export a derivative file in order to do so. Which is why I would rather have  internal modules in Lr so I would not have to export tens of thousands of images in the course of a year to make a book/album/slideshow ... I could work directly with my RAW image files and avoid all those extra files that must be tracked, cataloged and archived. Such workarounds are not solutions ... just more work for the end user.

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The kitchen sink approach to products always leads to big complex slow products...always.

You would be wrong .... considering Aperture 3 had Face detection, Maps, Slideshows (on steroids) and a 'no limits' book design and exportation since 2010.

I could could do so much more in Aperture 3 without issue ... create kick @$$ slideshows and custom books/albums with fully manageable page dimensions, margins and bleeds that I could print anywhere in an app that only cost $80 and took up only 1GB of HD space. Aperture was also much faster to import, view and browse images than Lr has ever been. Too bad I have to now work with a lesser option ... (even more restricted and less functional if you have your way) with a v6 product that weighs in at 1.51GB.

The evidence doesn't support your premise. Too bad you have so little confidence in Adobe to offer a similar solution with similar results. I think they are more than capable.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 04:46:04 pm by ButchM »
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digitaldog

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2015, 11:38:42 am »

Wait... was not this subscription model motivated by bringing their customers a constant flow of new, inspiring features direct from the developers, free from the bureaucratic reigns of monolithic waterfall-developed and QA tested releases?
Yup, that's the idea. If they don't, why subscribe?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2015, 11:54:37 am »

Yup, that's the idea. If they don't, why subscribe?

Because people want to retain access to their own files + parametric adjustments?

I know that Adobe says that Lightroom remains functional after unsubscribing, but I'm not so sure about that when I hear about even perpetual license users being locked out of Lightroom if their firewall (or remote location) prevents LR from 'calling home'.

Otherwise it would be more economical to just subscribe for a month or so, then unsubscribe, and only after some time temporarily subscribe again to a stable upgraded/updated version.

Cheers,
Bart
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digitaldog

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2015, 12:13:42 pm »

Because people want to retain access to their own files + parametric adjustments?
And they can. Assuming they have a exist policy such as mine (LR5). Otherwise, that's proprietary Adobe data. Leave Adobe solutions, say goodby to those parametric adjustments. The same would be true of course from someone migrating from C1 to LR.
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StephaneB

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Re: The Future of Lightroom
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2015, 12:54:33 pm »

Yes, Lr is difficult to replace ... but that should in no way dictate that we users should not expect more from Adobe's efforts to further develop the products they offer.

Just because Lightroom and Adobe's products are popular, should not negate the fact that Adobe also has a responsibility to consider the input from their users on the future development. Nor should Adobe allow their success to build a false sense of grandeur and lead them to believe they don't have to be responsive those that pay their way.

It's quite obvious that Adobe will eventually force all users to adopt the subscription licensing model ... once they do, will you be willing to pay monthly ... from here to eternity ... for the same old capabilities in perpetuity ... or will you expect Adobe to further advance the progress of the software solutions they produce?

What makes LR difficult to replace is not that it is popular. What makes LR difficult to replace is that it is of high quality.

I am already on the subscription model. I use LR, PhotoShop and ProSite. I find it good value, certainly compared to the competition.

The last modifications to the import module triggered an alarm and made me re-evaluate the competition. It is not close.
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