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Author Topic: DNG Support  (Read 14133 times)

Denis de Gannes

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 03:13:17 pm »

you can try yourself with any non DNG raw file - if you find a difference between rendering from it and from DNG (non lossy) saved from it first with ACR/LR that you are using - congratulations, you have a bug - please file a bug report with Adobe  :)

OK I understanding what you are stating now "the rendering of the DNG file is the same as the rendering of a an original Raw file". I am not disputing that, what I am suggesting is , Adobe should only allow the "Copy as DNG" option when importing raw files into Lightroom.
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CatOne

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2015, 07:19:09 pm »

OK I understanding what you are stating now "the rendering of the DNG file is the same as the rendering of a an original Raw file". I am not disputing that, what I am suggesting is , Adobe should only allow the "Copy as DNG" option when importing raw files into Lightroom.

On one hand, that would certain be "putting their money where their mouth is." On the other hand, I'd bet 75% of their customers would stop using Lightroom immediately if that were the case.

For all the doom and gloom about "proprietary camera raw formats," I for one will use them and not DNG, unless the camera itself produces DNG files (as my M9 does).
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2015, 07:19:32 am »

DNG is an free and open format that Adobe hoped all camera manufacturers would adopt to prevent the pointless proliferation of 'new' raw formats that only inconvenience camera buyers without actually providing additional benefits.
Converting to DNG is a different thing again aimed more IIRC for legacy benefits. Software in the future not being able to read formats from cameras that disappeared long before the software was invented for example. Not a bad idea in many ways as generic formats like DNG/JPEG will stand the rest of time far better than proprietary ones.
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2015, 07:21:02 am »

if you like the color rendering from raw converter manufacturer you still have to wait for it... and then with no changes in the format itself it is the issue with software that intentionally blocks you work with a raw file, not with the format itself... just like Adobe software blocks opening a raw from a new camera in native non DNG raw format when there is absolutely no changes in the tags that it is using... that way they create an impression for some uneducated users about the "major benefit of DNG".
That is paranoid tinfoil hat nonsense.
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Denis de Gannes

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2015, 07:44:08 am »

Quote "DNG is an free and open format that Adobe hoped all camera manufacturers would adopt to prevent the pointless proliferation of 'new' raw formats that only inconvenience camera buyers without actually providing additional benefits."
It has been over ten years Adobe has been advocating that camera manufacturers adopt this concept without much success. Digital cameras are still in a stage of rapid development, every few months new sensors and software for the rendering the raw data from them come to the market. The camera manufacturers know this and each one uses it to try and leapfrog other competitors, they do not wish to be tied to some file standard that may hamper them in further development of their products. Just my opinion as to why it has not happened.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:54:17 am by Denis de Gannes »
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Manoli

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2015, 08:30:42 am »

software that intentionally blocks you work with a raw file, not with the format itself... just like Adobe software blocks opening a raw from a new camera in native non DNG raw format when there is absolutely no changes in the tags that it is using...

That is paranoid tinfoil hat nonsense.

Check out this history list of minimum ACR requirement / camera RAW support ,
https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html
compare that change log to the Capture One archive.
https://www.phaseone.com/en/Downloads/Materials/Software-Archive/COReleaseNotes.aspx

Then tell me what the additional tags were in each new CaNikon cam introduction that necessitated an ACR version upgrade.

It may not have been to steer you to DNG, but it certainly seems designed to keep you firmly on the Adobe upgrade bandwagon. Not quite 'paranoid tinfoil hat nonsense' , as you put it.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2015, 08:49:10 am »

DNG is an free and open format that Adobe hoped all camera manufacturers would adopt to prevent the pointless proliferation of 'new' raw formats that only inconvenience camera buyers without actually providing additional benefits.
Converting to DNG is a different thing again aimed more IIRC for legacy benefits. Software in the future not being able to read formats from cameras that disappeared long before the software was invented for example. Not a bad idea in many ways as generic formats like DNG/JPEG will stand the rest of time far better than proprietary ones.

DCRAW is available on Mac, DOS/Windows, UNIX, and has been ported to Amiga, MorphOS, BeOS, OS/2, and RISC OS,  supports native Camera Raws, and also converts some Sigma Foveon formats.

Despite the FUD from DNG fanboys, there is no significant legacy risk or legacy benefits for DNG in particular, because there have been alternatives for most cameras for a long time before DNG was introduced already. There is also the LibRAW library which is based on DCRAW and apparently fixes some issues, and can be integrated in all sorts of software.

For those who are too lazy to search for themselves, here is a list of cameras that DCRAW supports as of this writing:
Supported Cameras
    Adobe Digital Negative (DNG)
    AgfaPhoto DC-833m
    Alcatel 5035D
    Apple QuickTake 100
    Apple QuickTake 150
    Apple QuickTake 200
    ARRIRAW format
    AVT F-080C
    AVT F-145C
    AVT F-201C
    AVT F-510C
    AVT F-810C
    Baumer TXG14
    Blackmagic URSA
    Canon PowerShot 600
    Canon PowerShot A5
    Canon PowerShot A5 Zoom
    Canon PowerShot A50
    Canon PowerShot A460 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A470 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A530 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A570 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A590 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A610 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A620 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A630 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A640 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A650 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A710 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A720 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot A3300 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot Pro70
    Canon PowerShot Pro90 IS
    Canon PowerShot Pro1
    Canon PowerShot G1
    Canon PowerShot G1 X
    Canon PowerShot G1 X Mark II
    Canon PowerShot G2
    Canon PowerShot G3
    Canon PowerShot G5
    Canon PowerShot G6
    Canon PowerShot G7 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot G7 X
    Canon PowerShot G9
    Canon PowerShot G10
    Canon PowerShot G11
    Canon PowerShot G12
    Canon PowerShot G15
    Canon PowerShot G16
    Canon PowerShot S2 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot S3 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot S5 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot SD300 (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot S30
    Canon PowerShot S40
    Canon PowerShot S45
    Canon PowerShot S50
    Canon PowerShot S60
    Canon PowerShot S70
    Canon PowerShot S90
    Canon PowerShot S95
    Canon PowerShot S100
    Canon PowerShot S110
    Canon PowerShot S120
    Canon PowerShot SX1 IS
    Canon PowerShot SX110 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot SX120 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot SX220 HS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot SX20 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot SX30 IS (CHDK hack)
    Canon PowerShot SX50 HS
    Canon PowerShot SX60 HS
    Canon EOS D30
    Canon EOS D60
    Canon EOS 5D
    Canon EOS 5D Mark II
    Canon EOS 5D Mark III
    Canon EOS 5DS
    Canon EOS 5DS R
    Canon EOS 6D
    Canon EOS 7D
    Canon EOS 7D Mark II
    Canon EOS 10D
    Canon EOS 20D
    Canon EOS 30D
    Canon EOS 40D
    Canon EOS 50D
    Canon EOS 60D
    Canon EOS 70D
    Canon EOS 300D / Digital Rebel / Kiss Digital
    Canon EOS 350D / Digital Rebel XT / Kiss Digital N
    Canon EOS 400D / Digital Rebel XTi / Kiss Digital X
    Canon EOS 450D / Digital Rebel XSi / Kiss Digital X2
    Canon EOS 500D / Digital Rebel T1i / Kiss Digital X3
    Canon EOS 550D / Digital Rebel T2i / Kiss Digital X4
    Canon EOS 600D / Digital Rebel T3i / Kiss Digital X5
    Canon EOS 650D / Digital Rebel T4i / Kiss Digital X6i
    Canon EOS 700D / Digital Rebel T5i / Kiss Digital X7i
    Canon EOS 750D / Digital Rebel T6i / Kiss Digital X8i
    Canon EOS 760D / Digital Rebel T6s / Kiss Digital X9
    Canon EOS 100D / Digital Rebel SL1 / Kiss Digital X7
    Canon EOS 1000D / Digital Rebel XS / Kiss Digital F
    Canon EOS 1100D / Digital Rebel T3 / Kiss Digital X50
    Canon EOS 1200D / Digital Rebel T5 / Kiss Digital X70
    Canon EOS C500
    Canon EOS D2000C
    Canon EOS M
    Canon EOS M3
    Canon EOS-1D
    Canon EOS-1DS
    Canon EOS-1D X
    Canon EOS-1D Mark II
    Canon EOS-1D Mark II N
    Canon EOS-1D Mark III
    Canon EOS-1D Mark IV
    Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II
    Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III
    Casio QV-2000UX
    Casio QV-3000EX
    Casio QV-3500EX
    Casio QV-4000
    Casio QV-5700
    Casio QV-R41
    Casio QV-R51
    Casio QV-R61
    Casio EX-FH100
    Casio EX-S20
    Casio EX-S100
    Casio EX-Z4
    Casio EX-Z50
    Casio EX-Z500
    Casio EX-Z55
    Casio EX-Z60
    Casio EX-Z75
    Casio EX-Z750
    Casio EX-Z8
    Casio EX-Z850
    Casio EX-Z1050
    Casio EX-Z1080
    Casio EX-ZR100
    Casio Exlim Pro 505
    Casio Exlim Pro 600
    Casio Exlim Pro 700
    Contax N Digital
    Creative PC-CAM 600
    DJI 4384x3288
    Epson R-D1
    Foculus 531C
    Fuji E550
    Fuji E900
    Fuji F700
    Fuji F710
    Fuji S1
    Fuji S2Pro
    Fuji S3Pro
    Fuji S5Pro
    Fuji S20Pro
    Fuji S100FS
    Fuji S5000
    Fuji S5100/S5500
    Fuji S5200/S5600
    Fuji S6000fd
    Fuji S7000
    Fuji S9000/S9500
    Fuji S9100/S9600
    Fuji S200EXR
    Fuji SL1000
    Fuji HS10/HS11
    Fuji HS20EXR
    Fuji HS30EXR
    Fuji HS50EXR
    Fuji F550EXR
    Fuji F600EXR
    Fuji F770EXR
    Fuji F800EXR
    Fuji F900EXR
    Fuji X-Pro1
    Fuji X-A1
    Fuji X-A2
    Fuji X-E1
    Fuji X-E2
    Fuji X-M1
    Fuji X-S1
    Fuji X-T1
    Fuji XF1
    Fuji XQ1
    Fuji XQ2
    Fuji X100
    Fuji X100s
    Fuji X100T
    Fuji X10
    Fuji X20
    Fuji X30
    Fuji IS-1
    Hasselblad CFV
    Hasselblad H3D
    Hasselblad H4D
    Hasselblad V96C
    Imacon Ixpress 16-megapixel
    Imacon Ixpress 22-megapixel
    Imacon Ixpress 39-megapixel
    ISG 2020x1520
    Kodak DC20
    Kodak DC25
    Kodak DC40
    Kodak DC50
    Kodak DC120 (also try kdc2tiff)
    Kodak DCS200
    Kodak DCS315C
    Kodak DCS330C
    Kodak DCS420
    Kodak DCS460
    Kodak DCS460A
    Kodak DCS460D
    Kodak DCS520C
    Kodak DCS560C
    Kodak DCS620C
    Kodak DCS620X
    Kodak DCS660C
    Kodak DCS660M
    Kodak DCS720X
    Kodak DCS760C
    Kodak DCS760M
    Kodak EOSDCS1
    Kodak EOSDCS3B
    Kodak NC2000F
    Kodak ProBack
    Kodak PB645C
    Kodak PB645H
    Kodak PB645M
    Kodak DCS Pro 14n
    Kodak DCS Pro 14nx
    Kodak DCS Pro SLR/c
    Kodak DCS Pro SLR/n
    Kodak C330
    Kodak C603
    Kodak P850
    Kodak P880
    Kodak Z980
    Kodak Z981
    Kodak Z990
    Kodak Z1015
    Kodak KAI-0340
    Konica KD-400Z
    Konica KD-510Z
    Leaf AFi 7
    Leaf AFi-II 12
    Leaf Aptus 17
    Leaf Aptus 22
    Leaf Aptus 54S
    Leaf Aptus 65
    Leaf Aptus 75
    Leaf Aptus 75S
    Leaf Cantare
    Leaf CatchLight
    Leaf CMost
    Leaf DCB2
    Leaf Valeo 6
    Leaf Valeo 11
    Leaf Valeo 17
    Leaf Valeo 22
    Leaf Volare
    Leica C (Typ 112)
    Leica Digilux 2
    Leica Digilux 3
    Leica D-LUX2
    Leica D-LUX3
    Leica D-LUX4
    Leica D-LUX5
    Leica D-LUX6
    Leica D-LUX (Typ 109)
    Leica M (Typ 240)
    Leica M Monochrom
    Leica M8
    Leica M9
    Leica R8
    Leica T (Typ 701)
    Leica V-LUX1
    Leica V-LUX2
    Leica V-LUX3
    Leica V-LUX4
    Leica V-LUX (Typ 114)
    Leica X VARIO (Typ 107)
    Leica X1
    Leica X2
    Leica X (Typ 113)
    Leica X-E (Typ 102)
    Lenovo A820
    Logitech Fotoman Pixtura
    Mamiya ZD
    Matrix 4608x3288
    Micron 2010
    Minolta RD175
    Minolta DiMAGE 5
    Minolta DiMAGE 7
    Minolta DiMAGE 7i
    Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi
    Minolta DiMAGE A1
    Minolta DiMAGE A2
    Minolta DiMAGE A200
    Minolta DiMAGE G400
    Minolta DiMAGE G500
    Minolta DiMAGE G530
    Minolta DiMAGE G600
    Minolta DiMAGE Z2
    Minolta Alpha/Dynax/Maxxum 5D
    Minolta Alpha/Dynax/Maxxum 7D
    Motorola PIXL
    Nikon D1
    Nikon D1H
    Nikon D1X
    Nikon D2H
    Nikon D2Hs
    Nikon D2X
    Nikon D2Xs
    Nikon D3
    Nikon D3s
    Nikon D3X
    Nikon D4
    Nikon D4s
    Nikon Df
    Nikon D40
    Nikon D40X
    Nikon D50
    Nikon D60
    Nikon D70
    Nikon D70s
    Nikon D80
    Nikon D90
    Nikon D100
    Nikon D200
    Nikon D300
    Nikon D300s
    Nikon D600
    Nikon D610
    Nikon D700
    Nikon D750
    Nikon D800
    Nikon D800E
    Nikon D810
    Nikon D3000
    Nikon D3100
    Nikon D3200
    Nikon D3300
    Nikon D5000
    Nikon D5100
    Nikon D5200
    Nikon D5300
    Nikon D5500
    Nikon D7000
    Nikon D7100
    Nikon D7200
    Nikon 1 AW1
    Nikon 1 J1
    Nikon 1 J2
    Nikon 1 J3
    Nikon 1 J4
    Nikon 1 J5
    Nikon 1 S1
    Nikon 1 V1
    Nikon 1 V2
    Nikon 1 V3
    Nikon E700 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E800 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E880 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E900 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E950 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E990 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E995 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E2100 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E2500 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E3200 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E3700 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E4300 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E4500 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nikon E5000
    Nikon E5400
    Nikon E5700
    Nikon E8400
    Nikon E8700
    Nikon E8800
    Nikon Coolpix A
    Nikon Coolpix P330
    Nikon Coolpix P340
    Nikon Coolpix P6000
    Nikon Coolpix P7000
    Nikon Coolpix P7100
    Nikon Coolpix P7700
    Nikon Coolpix P7800
    Nikon Coolpix S6 ("DIAG RAW" hack)
    Nokia N9
    Nokia N95
    Nokia X2
    Nokia 1200x1600
    Nokia Lumia 1020
    Olympus C3030Z
    Olympus C5050Z
    Olympus C5060WZ
    Olympus C7070WZ
    Olympus C70Z,C7000Z
    Olympus C740UZ
    Olympus C770UZ
    Olympus C8080WZ
    Olympus X200,D560Z,C350Z
    Olympus E-1
    Olympus E-3
    Olympus E-5
    Olympus E-10
    Olympus E-20
    Olympus E-30
    Olympus E-300
    Olympus E-330
    Olympus E-400
    Olympus E-410
    Olympus E-420
    Olympus E-500
    Olympus E-510
    Olympus E-520
    Olympus E-620
    Olympus E-M1
    Olympus E-M5
    Olympus E-M5MarkII
    Olympus E-M10
    Olympus E-P1
    Olympus E-P2
    Olympus E-P3
    Olympus E-P5
    Olympus E-PL1
    Olympus E-PL1s
    Olympus E-PL2
    Olympus E-PL3
    Olympus E-PL5
    Olympus E-PL7
    Olympus E-PM1
    Olympus E-PM2
    Olympus SH-2
    Olympus SP310
    Olympus SP320
    Olympus SP350
    Olympus SP500UZ
    Olympus SP510UZ
    Olympus SP550UZ
    Olympus SP560UZ
    Olympus SP570UZ
    Olympus STYLUS1
    Olympus TG-4
    Olympus XZ-1
    Olympus XZ-2
    Olympus XZ-10
    OmniVision OV5647 (Raspberry Pi)
    Panasonic DMC-CM1
    Panasonic DMC-FZ8
    Panasonic DMC-FZ18
    Panasonic DMC-FZ28
    Panasonic DMC-FZ30
    Panasonic DMC-FZ35/FZ38
    Panasonic DMC-FZ40
    Panasonic DMC-FZ50
    Panasonic DMC-FZ70
    Panasonic DMC-FZ100
    Panasonic DMC-FZ150
    Panasonic DMC-FZ200
    Panasonic DMC-FZ1000
    Panasonic DMC-FX150
    Panasonic DMC-G1
    Panasonic DMC-G2
    Panasonic DMC-G3
    Panasonic DMC-G5
    Panasonic DMC-G6
    Panasonic DMC-GF1
    Panasonic DMC-GF2
    Panasonic DMC-GF3
    Panasonic DMC-GF5
    Panasonic DMC-GF6
    Panasonic DMC-GF7
    Panasonic DMC-GH1
    Panasonic DMC-GH2
    Panasonic DMC-GH3
    Panasonic DMC-GH4
    Panasonic DMC-GM1
    Panasonic DMC-GM5
    Panasonic DMC-GX1
    Panasonic DMC-GX7
    Panasonic DMC-L1
    Panasonic DMC-L10
    Panasonic DMC-LC1
    Panasonic DMC-LF1
    Panasonic DMC-LX1
    Panasonic DMC-LX2
    Panasonic DMC-LX3
    Panasonic DMC-LX5
    Panasonic DMC-LX7
    Panasonic DMC-LX100
    Panasonic DMC-TZ61
    Panasonic DMC-ZS40
    Pentax *ist D
    Pentax *ist DL
    Pentax *ist DL2
    Pentax *ist DS
    Pentax *ist DS2
    Pentax GR
    Pentax K10D
    Pentax K20D
    Pentax K100D
    Pentax K100D Super
    Pentax K200D
    Pentax K2000/K-m
    Pentax K-x
    Pentax K-r
    Pentax K-3
    Pentax K-5
    Pentax K-5 II
    Pentax K-5 II s
    Pentax K-50
    Pentax K-500
    Pentax K-7
    Pentax K-S1
    Pentax K-S2
    Pentax Optio S
    Pentax Optio S4
    Pentax Optio 33WR
    Pentax Optio 750Z
    Pentax Q-S1
    Pentax Q7
    Pentax 645D
    Pentax 645Z
    Phase One LightPhase
    Phase One H 10
    Phase One H 20
    Phase One H 25
    Phase One P 20
    Phase One P 25
    Phase One P 30
    Phase One P 45
    Phase One P 45+
    Photron BC2-HD
    Pixelink A782
    Polaroid x530
    Redcode R3D format
    Ricoh GR
    Ricoh GX200
    Ricoh GXR MOUNT A12
    Ricoh GXR A16
    Rollei d530flex
    RoverShot 3320af
    Samsung EK-GN120
    Samsung EX1
    Samsung EX2F
    Samsung GX-1S
    Samsung GX10
    Samsung GX20
    Samsung NX1
    Samsung NX10
    Samsung NX11
    Samsung NX100
    Samsung NX20
    Samsung NX200
    Samsung NX210
    Samsung NX30
    Samsung NX300
    Samsung NX300M
    Samsung NX500
    Samsung NX1000
    Samsung NX1100
    Samsung NX2000
    Samsung NX3000
    Samsung NX mini
    Samsung WB550
    Samsung WB2000
    Samsung S85 (hacked)
    Samsung S850 (hacked)
    Sarnoff 4096x5440
    Sigma SD9
    Sigma SD10
    Sigma SD14
    Sigma SD15
    Sigma SD1
    Sigma SD1 Merill
    Sigma DP1
    Sigma DP1 Merill
    Sigma DP1S
    Sigma DP1X
    Sigma DP2
    Sigma DP2 Merill
    Sigma DP2S
    Sigma DP2X
    Sinar 3072x2048
    Sinar 4080x4080
    Sinar 4080x5440
    Sinar STI format
    SMaL Ultra-Pocket 3
    SMaL Ultra-Pocket 4
    SMaL Ultra-Pocket 5
    Sony DSC-F828
    Sony DSC-R1
    Sony DSC-RX1
    Sony DSC-RX1R
    Sony DSC-RX10
    Sony DSC-RX100
    Sony DSC-RX100M2
    Sony DSC-RX100M3
    Sony DSC-V3
    Sony DSLR-A100
    Sony DSLR-A200
    Sony DSLR-A230
    Sony DSLR-A290
    Sony DSLR-A300
    Sony DSLR-A330
    Sony DSLR-A350
    Sony DSLR-A380
    Sony DSLR-A450
    Sony DSLR-A500
    Sony DSLR-A550
    Sony DSLR-A580
    Sony DSLR-A700
    Sony DSLR-A850
    Sony DSLR-A900
    Sony ILCA-77M2
    Sony ILCE-7M2
    Sony ILCE-7
    Sony ILCE-7R
    Sony ILCE-7S
    Sony ILCE-3000
    Sony ILCE-5000
    Sony ILCE-5100
    Sony ILCE-6000
    Sony ILCE-QX1
    Sony NEX-3
    Sony NEX-3N
    Sony NEX-5
    Sony NEX-5N
    Sony NEX-5R
    Sony NEX-5T
    Sony NEX-6
    Sony NEX-7
    Sony NEX-C3
    Sony NEX-F3
    Sony SLT-A33
    Sony SLT-A35
    Sony SLT-A37
    Sony SLT-A55V
    Sony SLT-A57
    Sony SLT-A58
    Sony SLT-A65V
    Sony SLT-A77V
    Sony SLT-A99V
    Sony XCD-SX910CR
    STV680 VGA

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 08:51:20 am by BartvanderWolf »
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2015, 09:05:34 am »

Despite the FUD from DNG fanboys, there is no significant legacy risk or legacy benefits for DNG in particular, because there have been alternatives for most cameras for a long time before DNG was introduced already. There is also the LibRAW library which is based on DCRAW and apparently fixes some issues, and can be integrated in all sorts of software.
Not a DNG fanboi as it happens and the FUD comes from the other side if anything. What do you mean by alternatives for cameras? Other software? As you should know, all software or software companies can vanish leaving you high and dry.

Lots of irrelevant nonsense being posted here which is not germane to a simple question about whether C1 will support more cameras than the limited range it previously did and in particular ones with DNG output, which should not even need an update to be used.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 10:12:22 am by jjj »
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2015, 09:14:44 am »

Quote "DNG is an free and open format that Adobe hoped all camera manufacturers would adopt to prevent the pointless proliferation of 'new' raw formats that only inconvenience camera buyers without actually providing additional benefits."
It has been over ten years Adobe has been advocating that camera manufacturers adopt this concept without much success. Digital cameras are still in a stage of rapid development, every few months new sensors and software for the rendering the raw data from them come to the market. The camera manufacturers know this and each one uses it to try and leapfrog other competitors, they do not wish to be tied to some file standard that may hamper them in further development of their products. Just my opinion as to why it has not happened.
Not the case as the supposedly 'new' file formats have not added anything. Often it's just the name of the camera in the file that changes and breaks compatibility. Sensors getting better does not necessarily mean the files they have to get stored in need to change.
It's just some image data being stored at end of the day in a container. If however it was a completely different kind of image altogether like say in Lightfield cameras, then yes you may have a point, but the same sensor in a bunch of cameras all needing different raw file formats or a camera gets a cosmetic update and software now needs to be updated.....
You get the same mess in video where the same kind of file gets a new wrapper for no real reason and suddenly becomes unusable in software.
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Manoli

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2015, 09:16:49 am »

For those who are too lazy to search for themselves, here is a list of cameras that DCRAW supports as of this writing ...

Bart,
I think you missed one out ..  ;)

Best,
M
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AlterEgo

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2015, 09:25:04 am »

That is paranoid tinfoil hat nonsense.

you are referring to this statement = "just like Adobe software blocks opening a raw from a new camera in native non DNG raw format when there is absolutely no changes in the tags that it is using... that way they create an impression for some uneducated users about the "major benefit of DNG"."

1) do you dispute that if only the camera model inside was changed (format is intact, all tags have the same meanings) then Adobe will not open the raw in non DNG format ?

2) do you dispute that Adobe itself proclaim that this is not going to happen with DNG format ? which is claimed as a major benefit by Adobe (not the only one mind you )



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Manoli

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2015, 09:26:13 am »

Not the case as the supposedly 'new' file formats have not added anything.

Exactly.

Often it's just the name of the camera in the file that changes and breaks compatibility.

No, it doesn't break compatibility - the file, more often than not, is still the same. It's some software houses (cough, cough .. Adobe) who so design their software.

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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2015, 09:38:51 am »

Check out this history list of minimum ACR requirement / camera RAW support ,
https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html
compare that change log to the Capture One archive.
https://www.phaseone.com/en/Downloads/Materials/Software-Archive/COReleaseNotes.aspx

Then tell me what the additional tags were in each new CaNikon cam introduction that necessitated an ACR version upgrade.

It may not have been to steer you to DNG, but it certainly seems designed to keep you firmly on the Adobe upgrade bandwagon. Not quite 'paranoid tinfoil hat nonsense' , as you put it.
No idea quite what point you are making with those two links. I can see less camera supported on the not quite as hard to find list as previously was the case with C1. Though finally my pocket camera that I stopped using a year or so back, has finally been added with the latest update, so well done Phase how long did that take you? But still no Pentax 645s are far as I could see and not quite supporting the recent Canon's yet which are also edging close to competition for Phase cameras.

I've heard Adobe engineers/Product Managers complain that they can't simply support new cameras because manufacturers keep breaking compatibility and it is sometimes no more than the camera name and they find it very frustrating.
Yet for some unknown reason the camera manufacturers never get blamed for new file formats that Lightroom or whatever cannot support as camera that was released a while after  the software was released, it's always Adobe's fault. You see this time and time again in forums/online. It gets Adobe a lot of unwarranted bad press and it is not in their interest to garner such dislike. They make zero money from DNG by the way, it's a solution for all camera developing software to be able to support cameras as soon as they are released.

Have people also forgotten that camera companies rather stupidly may not want to let Adobe software deal with their output. Nikon a few years back tried to cripple their raw files so that only Nikon software could deal with them properly . Not free Nikon software either. Or anywhere near being good.
Nikon had to backtrack very rapidly as many people would rather change to Canon or whoever rather than drop Photoshop/Lightroom/C1 etc.

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digitaldog

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2015, 09:47:28 am »

Yet for some unknown reason the camera manufacturers never get blamed for new file formats that Lightroom or whatever cannot support as camera that was released a while after  the software was released, it's always Adobe's fault. You see this time and time again in forums/online.
So true! I don't know how people can ignore the facts and are unable place the blame where it belongs. Then you'll hear nonsense about how DNG is a way for Adobe to make more money, it's no good as it's not a 'standard' etc, etc. If native camera raw files were as equally accessible as say the JPEG the same camera creates from the raw, I suspect Adobe would never have needed to consider creating DNG.
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2015, 09:47:40 am »

No, it doesn't break compatibility - the file, more often than not, is still the same. It's some software houses (cough, cough .. Adobe) who so design their software.
So what software can open a new camera's  'new' file format without an update?
As I said above it is against any software company's interest to delay support for a new camera. IF C1 supports Model X and LR does not or vice versa guess what software the new camera purchaser is going to try out whilst waiting for an update? The one that works. Then if they prefer the alternative software, you've lost a customer.

So do you know how to parse and open Raw files then? Just because it may only be a camera name change, doesn't mean it's a simple solution.
Just like only changing part of a software or physical key stops it from opening whatever it is meant to. Regardless of whether how minor the change.

Don't forget these files need to be reverse engineered to open.


« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 10:14:44 am by jjj »
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2015, 09:55:52 am »

1) do you dispute that if only the camera model inside was changed (format is intact, all tags have the same meanings) then Adobe will not open the raw in non DNG format ?
Why would I dispute that? I specifically said it was a problem and explained above why it is necessarily not a trivial issue and not in Adobe's interest o pretend to delay.

Quote
2) do you dispute that Adobe itself proclaim that this is not going to happen with DNG format ? which is claimed as a major benefit by Adobe (not the only one mind you )
That's a very awkwardly worded sentence, not really sure what you mean.
However DNG files from new cameras open straight away in LR/ACR and other software without updates, the exception has always been C1. Some of the reason seem political as serious and much cheaper camera rivals like Pentax use DNG.
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jjj

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2015, 10:09:50 am »

Another thing for those who are paranoid about the purpose of DNG.
Adobe made a free DNG convertor, so you can continue to use older software with newer cameras.
So rather than having to update to the newest version of PS/LR [or any other DNG supporting software] whenever you buy a newer camera, you can carry on using your old software as long as you want. Once files are converted to DNG. Obviously you get some new cameras added during point releases, but if you buy a camera which is only added to a later full version, that you do not own, it's very handy tool

Now is that is behaviour that should be applauded, particularly when companies on the whole like to force you to upgrade computers/software because they break compatibility.
However I'm not so sure the Adobe of today would introduce such a piece of software. They also used to have an exceptionally good upgrade policy of from three prior versions, which got dropped to one and then replaced not long after with CC.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2015, 10:16:41 am »

Another thing for those who are paranoid about the purpose of DNG.
Adobe made a free DNG convertor, so you can continue to use older software with newer cameras.

yes, free, closed source DNG converter... ACR or LR can also be used - including trial versions - to convert to DNG, so ?

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AlterEgo

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2015, 10:18:03 am »

So rather than having to update to the newest version of PS/LR [or any other DNG supporting software] whenever you buy a newer camera, you can carry on using your old software as long as you want. Once files are converted to DNG. Obviously you get some new cameras added during point releases, but if you buy a camera which is only added to a later full version, that you do not own, it's very handy tool

or Adobe can simply allow to use formats w/o blocking it based on model name... with the same results.

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AlterEgo

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Re: DNG Support
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2015, 10:18:39 am »

Why would I dispute that? I specifically said it was a problem and explained above why it is necessarily not a trivial issue and not in Adobe's interest o pretend to delay.
That's a very awkwardly worded sentence, not really sure what you mean.
However DNG files from new cameras open straight away in LR/ACR and other software without updates, the exception has always been C1. Some of the reason seem political as serious and much cheaper camera rivals like Pentax use DNG.

so basically you insulted me here for no reason ?
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