What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?

[ButchM]

You say:

But when I explain the problems that unintended feature interaction can cause software developers, and the ongoing cost that even trivial (to the user) new features can cause, you say:

I strongly recommend that you don't ever learn more about software development, lest you should be embarrassed by that comment!

If you had been a software developer, you certainly wouldn't say that.

Once again I fully admit I am not now, nor have I ever been a software developer. If I were, why would I need Adobe or why would I waste my time and effort lobbying for what I would like from them to fulfill my needs? If I were a software developer of any reasonable level of accomplishment, I would be listening intently to ideas such as this and offering competing options and solutions. Rather than dismissing such ideas without definitive knowledge if the idea is just too difficult to accomplish ... or if it purely a lack of incentive.

If all I had to offer was excuses to my customers when they come to me asking me to match something a competitor already can accomplish, yes, that would be embarrassing ... and how long would I keep that customer if I failed to be industrious enough to retain them? If Bill can meet their needs today ... without making excuses ... why would they want to keep Butch around if all he brings to the table is reasons why he can't meet expectations? If you don't think I haven't had to mold, adjust, alter, expand and adjust my business model some more since 1975 to remain successful ... instead to telling my customers ... "No, your request is too problematic and you should be embarrassed that you have no clue of the difficulties I would face in finding a solution to your idea. "

Sure, there are pitfalls to any endeavor and you fellows may be more privy to the complications of software development than I ... but, you fellows have no better direct knowledge than I, if the absence of my request is indeed a result of such a complication or purely a lack of initiative. That fact is not embarrassing to me.

Yes, you can pan my ideas and belabor that I don't possess the 'insider knowledge' of software development if you feel that gives you a superior position in the discussion. However, I don't pay Adobe, or any other software developer I support for making excuses. I pay them for solutions.

[john beardsworth]

I don't think I was being confrontational, just partaking in a conversation. BTW, the latest upgrade, at best, just reaffirmed my position.

I didn't think you were, James, and neither was I. I know you really meant the core modules' left and right panels, but it just seemed amusing that after all the fuss over the latest upgrade's changes to the Import UI you would say "I get a sense that Adobe has decide that the LR UI doesn't need improvement."

[Simon Garrett]

ButchM,

I doubt I have any disagreement with you in practice, so silly to argue with you.  I wasn't trying to brow-beat you with specialist knowledge, but was making the general point that extra features have a cost both for software developers and users, and there's a balance to be struck.  Clearly Adobe didn't get that balance right with this latest release. 

To cater for experienced users while making it a relatively painless learning process for new users they've clearly got some work to do. 

[chez]

ButchM,

I doubt I have any disagreement with you in practice, so silly to argue with you.  I wasn't trying to brow-beat you with specialist knowledge, but was making the general point that extra features have a cost both for software developers and users, and there's a balance to be struck.  Clearly Adobe didn't get that balance right with this latest release. 

To cater for experienced users while making it a relatively painless learning process for new users they've clearly got some work to do.

And might I add, catering to such different users in one software package is a very complex problem to solve. Many Sunday armchair quarterbacks here who truly don't understand the complexities of software development and management.

[ButchM]

Many Sunday armchair quarterbacks here who truly don't understand the complexities of software development and management.

Many armchair quarterbacks also don't understand the complexities of cameras, lenses, tripods, flash units, CF/SD cards, cable releases, wireless remotes, auxiliary power sources, etc., etc., etc. Yet this armchair quarterbacks seek new features, innovations and improvements from the folks that provide those products each and every day.

Because customers may not be up to speed with all the nuances and fully comprehend these intricacies, they should not make requests for solutions we would find valuable? ... Especially when those exact features have existed elsewhere ... for years?

And might I add, catering to such different users in one software package is a very complex problem to solve.

No problem ... if the task is too difficult, perhaps the developer is in the wrong line of work and should move on to another endeavor. I surely wouldn't desire for anyone suffer because the task I present to them is far too difficult to consider.

In my mind, a true entrepreneurial attitude would be to seek out such tasks as a challenge to serve an end resulting in a higher level of customer satisfaction and loyalty to the brand I produce ... not an opportunity to list a litany of excuses as to why it can't be done without even trying.

[chez]

Many armchair quarterbacks also don't understand the complexities of cameras, lenses, tripods, flash units, CF/SD cards, cable releases, wireless remotes, auxiliary power sources, etc., etc., etc. Yet this armchair quarterbacks seek new features, innovations and improvements from the folks that provide those products each and every day.

Because customers may not be up to speed with all the nuances and fully comprehend these intricacies, they should not make requests for solutions we would find valuable? ... Especially when those exact features have existed elsewhere ... for years?

No problem ... if the task is too difficult, perhaps the developer is in the wrong line of work and should move on to another endeavor. I surely wouldn't desire for anyone suffer because the task I present to them is far too difficult to consider.

In my mind, a true entrepreneurial attitude would be to seek out such tasks as a challenge to serve an end resulting in a higher level of customer satisfaction and loyalty to the brand I produce ... not an opportunity to list a litany of excuses as to why it can't be done without even trying.

So take your own advice...rather than constantly complain about LR...why not just take the challenge using it to "serve an end resulting in a higher level of customer satisfaction" for your customers.

So naive thinking when you don't understand the complexity of software development.

[ButchM]

So take your own advice...rather than constantly complain about LR...why not just take the challenge using it to "serve an end resulting in a higher level of customer satisfaction" for your customers.

So naive thinking when you don't understand the complexity of software development.

Wow ... using your analogy ... if I, personally am unaware to the intricacies of auto mechanics ... I should expect a long list of excuses when I expect the repair shop to fix my transmission? If I understand all that detail myself ... who needs a repair shop?

Where do you think I came up with the idea of serving customers as best as I can policy? ... it certainly entered my wheel house long before Adobe, or even you came on the scene.

I have admitted fully on multiple occasions, in this very thread, that I don't understand the 'complexities of software development' ... but then I don't need to ... that is why I pay Adobe ... to offer software solutions. I don't recall requiring or requesting your appraisal on the matter. My naiveté is irrelevant to the discussion.

You seem all too eager to give Adobe a pass on this matter without any direct knowledge that your assertion is correct. You also seem to have much less confidence in their resources and capabilities to offer such a solution. I, on the other hand, think they are more than qualified and capable of addressing my concerns.

Too bad you don't have any faith Adobe can rise to the occasion. I was once under the impression you thought Adobe was pure perfection and could do no wrong. What changed your mind? My lack of insider knowledge of software development? 

[chez]

Wow ... using your analogy ... if I, personally am unaware to the intricacies of auto mechanics ... I should expect a long list of excuses when I expect the repair shop to fix my transmission? If I understand all that detail myself ... who needs a repair shop?

Fix...no...but you are asking your mechanic to make your 4 speed into a 5 speed and when he says it's not easy to do...you riddle him with remarks like he is not up to the challenge. That Butch with your not understanding anything about software development or it's complexities is what you are asking.

You throw around phrases such as

" If I were a software developer of any reasonable level of accomplishment, I would be listening intently to ideas such as this and offering competing options and solutions. Rather than dismissing such ideas without definitive knowledge if the idea is just too difficult to accomplish ... or if it purely a lack of incentive"

"However, I don't pay Adobe, or any other software developer I support for making excuses. I pay them for solutions."

"Poppycock. Pure and simple."

"Too bad they have such limited resources and personnel incapable of handling such challenges or complicated tasks"

You make it sound like Adobe engineers are stupid...not motivated and maybe just lazy...not up to the great challenges you lay before them. You speak with such conviction, authoritatively...yet out of ignorance.

Take this for example. If a potential client comes to you wanting a shot of a hummingbird in flight catching a mosquito in the tip of it's beak...you'd be up for the challenge, right. Or would you start back peddling with excuses that it's too difficult...not motivated, not up to the challenge and obviously not an elite photographer as there are photographers out there that can accomplish this.

Butch...good thing you are so ignorant on the details of software development...or you'd be embarrassed by your comments.

[ButchM]

Fix...no...but you are asking your mechanic to make your 4 speed into a 5 speed and when he says it's not easy to do...you riddle him with remarks like he is not up to the challenge. That Butch with your not understanding anything about software development or it's complexities is what you are asking.

I'm not asking Adobe to make a 5 speed out of a 4 speed, I'm asking for a more efficient manner to get from low gear to overdrive ... I'm not asking them to make anything that has not been done before.

You make it sound like Adobe engineers are stupid...not motivated and maybe just lazy...not up to the great challenges you lay before them. You speak with such conviction, authoritatively...yet out of ignorance.

No, it is you my friend, that possesses too little confidence in Adobe's abilities. Adobe hasn't offered any feedback whatsoever on the matter of my feature request ... so you are no more an 'expert' on the matter than anyone else and are just as 'ignorant' on the details if Adobe could handle my request for Lightroom or not. Matter of fact. You and others seem to wish to speak for them and are convinced I can't have my request because it is too difficult. I, OTOH am convinced they are equal to the task. Why so little faith, chez? ... Secondly, exactly what feature/function is it I am seeking? Do you know? Or are you ignorant of that pesky detail?

Take this for example. If a potential client comes to you wanting a shot of a hummingbird in flight catching a mosquito in the tip of it's beak...you'd be up for the challenge, right. Or would you start back peddling with excuses that it's too difficult...not motivated, not up to the challenge and obviously not an elite photographer as there are photographers out there that can accomplish this.

I'm asked quite often to venture forth in new aspects of my business. Forty years ago when I started out, I exposed film and sent it to a lab, then delivered the prints to my clients when they retuned. That is a far cry from the products and services I now offer now or what I offered when I owned my own custom color photo lab for over 18 years. I didn't get here by ignoring my clients and their concerns, ideas and needs.

My initial response to new requests is never to point out my customers ignorance of the difficulties of my trade. They simply don't care. If what I do was that easy, they's take up the task themselves or seek out someone who could dress their needs. I also don't pan a new idea or request until I've had a chance to examine it further ... I also don't rely upon the unsolicited support from strangers to speak for me on such matters ... as they too, are quite ignorant about how I may address such special requests.

Butch...good thing you are so ignorant on the details of software development...or you'd be embarrassed by your comments.

I am allowed to be ignorant about software development. I am not embarrassed at all about acknowledging that fact. I am not a software developer so why should I need to know such things? I've pointed that out to you at least twice now. I also do not require your approval or consent to have an opinion on such matters.

(By the way ... Are you sure it is I that should be embarrassed? ... or is it your lack of original thought that could cause your face to appear flush? Have you actually read this thread? ... Can you come up with something fresh? ... or are you simply trying to be the oil to my water again and disagree with my point of view at any cost?)

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

Friends, I believe we have probably exhausted this topic now; so I am locking this thread. Thank you for all your contributions.