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Author Topic: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG  (Read 8536 times)

geesbert

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Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« on: October 05, 2015, 04:42:36 pm »

I have a strange issue: When I shoot tethered with my A7R2 into C1 and export those images to DNG, the files are much bigger (about 85MB compard to around 40 with lightroom) and show some horrible color cast, either light pink or very green.

Photo mechanics can't see them anymore and when I try to import them into Lightroom thay are not accepted.

I tried that with two different capture computers (both imacs) and they both show the same problems.

Using sony's capture sofware and lighroom works fine, btw.

thankStefan
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2015, 05:27:59 pm »

Why export to DNG????
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David Grover
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2015, 05:29:39 pm »

Why export to DNG????
may be he does not want to have the original raw files (.ARW) at all... everybody goes crazy in his/her own way.
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geesbert

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2015, 02:57:30 am »

Why export to DNG????


Multiple reasons:

#1: my urge to upgrade cameras and to get the latest/greatest is unfortunately more pronounced than my clients'. Often when they want raws their system isn't able to read my files. no problem with DNGs.

#2: I can bake in my looks into the DNGs without sacrificing quality. O encountered many times that either the XMPs are lost for many reasons or that they get scrambled by FTP uploading.

#3: Proprietary file formats suck. Why can some companys work with a common standard (like Leica), but most refuse?

#4: by handing out DNGs of my work, I can still proof my original ownership by retaining the raws. not that I ever have needed this, but I enjoy a bit of paranoia from time to time.

#5: recent developments like Adobe moving to subscription models or the way Nikon handles their NEFs I am even more dubious, even paranoid about proprietary file formats. I wanna make sure that I can access my files in a few years, at least the selects.



I usally keep most of the raw files, but only convert the selects to DNG.
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brandon

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2015, 05:26:11 am »


Multiple reasons:

#1: my urge to upgrade cameras and to get the latest/greatest is unfortunately more pronounced than my clients'. Often when they want raws their system isn't able to read my files. no problem with DNGs.

#2: I can bake in my looks into the DNGs without sacrificing quality. O encountered many times that either the XMPs are lost for many reasons or that they get scrambled by FTP uploading.

#3: Proprietary file formats suck. Why can some companys work with a common standard (like Leica), but most refuse?

#4: by handing out DNGs of my work, I can still proof my original ownership by retaining the raws. not that I ever have needed this, but I enjoy a bit of paranoia from time to time.

#5: recent developments like Adobe moving to subscription models or the way Nikon handles their NEFs I am even more dubious, even paranoid about proprietary file formats. I wanna make sure that I can access my files in a few years, at least the selects.



I usally keep most of the raw files, but only convert the selects to DNG.
Just an idea, what about keeping everything in raw, and just downloading raw to DNG converters as they are released as the insurance policy in case one day your raw converter of choice cant read your raw files (due to often quoted redundancy such as when Kodak died and support was lacking in the dawn of digital raw). I know opinions vary on this (and its not black and white) however if current raw converters handle current (and pretty much all past, and quickly new models') raw files its hard to critisize them for not handling DNG (non-native raw) just because its an "open format" (and one thats specs seemed to have changed since introduced from what I can gather).
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2015, 09:29:38 am »

#1: my urge to upgrade cameras and to get the latest/greatest is unfortunately more pronounced than my clients'. Often when they want raws their system isn't able to read my files. no problem with DNGs.

here if you use LR anyways - do export to DNG from LR, not from C1 ...

#2: I can bake in my looks into the DNGs without sacrificing quality. O encountered many times that either the XMPs are lost for many reasons or that they get scrambled by FTP uploading.

nothing wrong with using DNG as an intermediate format for data exchange... provided that you and your client are on the same version of raw converter (to interpret all parametric edits saved in DNG)


#3: Proprietary file formats suck. Why can some companys work with a common standard (like Leica), but most refuse?

or why Samsung dumped DNG when they at one time used it... also you shall note that proprietary parametric edits suck too - don't you agree that Adobe has no more rights to own your work than Nikon or Canon your data ? except that in reality "proprietary file formats" are better described (sheer amount of raw converters that can do) than Adobe's "proprietary parametric edits" for the practical purposes  ;D

#4: by handing out DNGs of my work, I can still proof my original ownership by retaining the raws. not that I ever have needed this, but I enjoy a bit of paranoia from time to time.

nice to hear that you still keep the original raws as they were produced by the camera and not replacing them with non suitable for archival purposes DNGs

#5: recent developments like Adobe moving to subscription models or the way Nikon handles their NEFs I am even more dubious, even paranoid about proprietary file formats. I wanna make sure that I can access my files in a few years, at least the selects.

you probably mean not "access my files", but "access my parametric edits"  ::)

I usally keep most of the raw files, but only convert the selects to DNG.

just do not export them from C1 because it seems you still use LR to work with them and C1 only for tethering, no ?
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2015, 06:09:55 am »


Multiple reasons:

#1: my urge to upgrade cameras and to get the latest/greatest is unfortunately more pronounced than my clients'. Often when they want raws their system isn't able to read my files. no problem with DNGs.

#2: I can bake in my looks into the DNGs without sacrificing quality. O encountered many times that either the XMPs are lost for many reasons or that they get scrambled by FTP uploading.

#3: Proprietary file formats suck. Why can some companys work with a common standard (like Leica), but most refuse?

#4: by handing out DNGs of my work, I can still proof my original ownership by retaining the raws. not that I ever have needed this, but I enjoy a bit of paranoia from time to time.

#5: recent developments like Adobe moving to subscription models or the way Nikon handles their NEFs I am even more dubious, even paranoid about proprietary file formats. I wanna make sure that I can access my files in a few years, at least the selects.



I usally keep most of the raw files, but only convert the selects to DNG.

#1  Send EIP files from Capture One to your client.  They open in Capture One with your edits applied.

#2  I would argue you are sacrificing quality

#3  Perhaps DNG is not suitable to their needs?

#5  DNG is a proprietary Adobe format

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David Grover
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Paul2660

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 01:04:09 pm »

#1  Send EIP files from Capture One to your client.  They open in Capture One with your edits applied.

#2  I would argue you are sacrificing quality

#3  Perhaps DNG is not suitable to their needs?

#5  DNG is a proprietary Adobe format

Number 5 is just a bit of a stretch isn't it?

Digital Negative (DNG) is an open lossless raw image format written by Adobe used for digital photography. It was launched on September 27, 2004.[1] The launch was accompanied by the first version of the DNG specification,[2] plus various products, including a free-of-charge DNG converter utility. All Adobe photo manipulation software (such as Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Lightroom) released since the launch supports DNG.[3]

DNG is based on the TIFF/EP standard format, and mandates significant use of metadata. Use of the file format is royalty-free; Adobe has published a license allowing anyone to exploit DNG,[4] and has also stated that there are no known intellectual property encumbrances or license requirements for DNG.[5] Adobe stated that if there was a consensus that DNG should be controlled by a standards body, they were open to the idea.[6] Adobe has submitted DNG to ISO for incorporation into their revision of TIFF/EP.[7]

This is such an old issue, it's sad that C1 can't address it other than "it's proprietary", when it isn't it's as open as tif or jpg.  C1 would go a long way to allow such exports but then it might allow folks to work on other medium format cameras? maybe. 

Sad as I love the software (C1) when it works. 

Paul
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geesbert

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 04:02:39 pm »

Thanks, Paul!


I think we have established now that C1 works great within a C1 environment, but beware of anything outside of it.
So what is the answer to my question? C1 offers DNG export, but it doesn't work properly because Phase 1 thinks that DNGs stink? Or it works a bit, but the filesize doubles for reasons unknown and all my adjustments are lost anyway?

I guess my solution for now is to use C1 as a capture software only and hotfoldering it to Lightroom.

It is such am shame that Sony has such a fantastic camera with the A7r2 but doesn't bother to offer a professional tethering solution which allows live view tethering.
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2015, 04:32:06 am »

Thanks, Paul!


I think we have established now that C1 works great within a C1 environment, but beware of anything outside of it.
So what is the answer to my question? C1 offers DNG export, but it doesn't work properly because Phase 1 thinks that DNGs stink? Or it works a bit, but the filesize doubles for reasons unknown and all my adjustments are lost anyway?

I guess my solution for now is to use C1 as a capture software only and hotfoldering it to Lightroom.

It is such am shame that Sony has such a fantastic camera with the A7r2 but doesn't bother to offer a professional tethering solution which allows live view tethering.

You can live view tether with Capture One and the A7rII?

With regards to the issue at hand.  Have you made a support case so we can look into it?

David
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David Grover
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geesbert

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2015, 06:29:01 am »

live view tethering works fine, only the missing rotation function and the stupid 20 minute shut-off is a real bummer, but I can work around that.

Not being able to export to DNG is a deal breaker though.

And yes, I made a support case with C1 and wait for an answer.

Stefan
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 10:42:53 am »

live view tethering works fine, only the missing rotation function and the stupid 20 minute shut-off is a real bummer, but I can work around that.

Not being able to export to DNG is a deal breaker though.

And yes, I made a support case with C1 and wait for an answer.

Stefan

Unfortunately (as yet) there is nothing we can do about the Live View stream not rotating.  We can only display as the camera delivers.

I will be perfectly honest, I don't 'get' the issue with the DNG export. Sure, I see there is an issue with the colour you are experiencing, but I simply don't understand why you are making this extra step.

So far I can see that you want to deliver RAW files to your clients... with edits.  I suggested using EIP files from Capture One which will do just that.

I would argue that if your client is demanding RAW files you should have the right to determine how they view them as its your reputation for quality.

Pure and simple - to supply the image as you shot it, with the best quality, is Capture One and the .ARW file or the EIP.

David
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 12:33:07 pm »

+1

If C1 can export to DNG it should do it properly.

Best regards
Erik


Multiple reasons:

#1: my urge to upgrade cameras and to get the latest/greatest is unfortunately more pronounced than my clients'. Often when they want raws their system isn't able to read my files. no problem with DNGs.

#2: I can bake in my looks into the DNGs without sacrificing quality. O encountered many times that either the XMPs are lost for many reasons or that they get scrambled by FTP uploading.

#3: Proprietary file formats suck. Why can some companys work with a common standard (like Leica), but most refuse?

#4: by handing out DNGs of my work, I can still proof my original ownership by retaining the raws. not that I ever have needed this, but I enjoy a bit of paranoia from time to time.

#5: recent developments like Adobe moving to subscription models or the way Nikon handles their NEFs I am even more dubious, even paranoid about proprietary file formats. I wanna make sure that I can access my files in a few years, at least the selects.



I usally keep most of the raw files, but only convert the selects to DNG.
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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 08:18:34 pm »

I sent a request to tech support today about this very issue. My files that I export from capture one as DNG are not able to import into lightroom without severe color shift. Unfortunately lightroom is still a much better cataloging tool for me so I would like to have my edited raw files there. That's the only reason I want to export at all.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2015, 12:34:22 am »

Hi,

I don't know if that makes any sense at all. If you export the files as DNG, Lightroom will still process them with Adobe's processing pipeline. So, the results will be different than what is delivered by C1.

Ideally, exporting the file as DNG would just put the raw data into a standardised container, although I am pretty sure that DNG conversion does compression of raw data. The DNG file can also hold processing information, but that will always be pipeline specific.

I just don't think there is a good way to mix C1 and LR in a raw workflow, it's either or. Converting to TIFF in C1 and using LR as catalogue tool makes some sense but files will have 6 times the sizes and still loose information.

It may take some effort to make best use of LR, but there are some very good tools to create profiles for LR. I would put a good word for Adobe DNG Profile Editor, although I would say that Anders Torger's DCamProf may be the most promising tool.

Best regards
Erik

I sent a request to tech support today about this very issue. My files that I export from capture one as DNG are not able to import into lightroom without severe color shift. Unfortunately lightroom is still a much better cataloging tool for me so I would like to have my edited raw files there. That's the only reason I want to export at all.
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geesbert

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2015, 04:39:02 pm »

So I got a response  from P1 Tech support today. They could repeat my problems but must admit, that with a new camera like the a7r2 the implementation of the DNG routine is not optimal and might lead to color shifts.

So I have to wait and see for future updates.
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JaapD

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2015, 02:33:12 pm »

When looking at your multiple reasons I would propose to convert your arw files by C1. Then directly convert the 14 bit dynamic range to a 16 bit Tif file. You don't lose anything by working from this Tif file (4 times the dynamic range of the 14 bit arw) for all your post processing.
Optionally you can do some basic processing in C1, as long as you don't let anything clip and do NOT do any sharpening.
Whit this you're covered for the future as the TIF format will stay. This cannot be said for DNG as most see no added value in this format type.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 11:36:35 am by JaapD »
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geesbert

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2015, 04:24:32 pm »

And how do you cope with 206MB per Tiff in storage? with double backups that's 618MB per picture. I had a shooting today where i got 38 keepers. That's 23.484MB of storage just for one day of shooting. I have roughly 100-120 days of shooting a year, quite often I have a few hundreds of pictures that I see worth keeping.

So (again) I gave up on C1 and will give it another try in a few iterations. I am doing this for a few years now. it's fine. Just stupid to buy the upgrades every time, even before the trial ends...
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2015, 04:35:16 pm »

And how do you cope with 206MB per Tiff in storage?

Hi,

I do not understand that question. C1 is a parametric Raw converter and editor, until you save a final output file, just like e.g. Lightroom. There is no need to save TIFF output, unless you need to do other post-processing on the file that you cannot do in Capture One itself. You can simply re-generate an output file when the need arises, directly from the Raw file as a source.

Cheers,
Bart
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geesbert

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Re: Sony A7r2 files not exporting properly to DNG
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2015, 04:38:26 pm »

that was my reply to Jaap's suggestion to convert my files to Tiff!
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