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Author Topic: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?  (Read 8507 times)

adrjork

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Up to now, I don't need to capture RAW from my GH4, just a good 10bit Prores instead. So theoretically I don't need a Shogun recorder. I can go for the more affordable Ninja Assassin since it does the same things except RAW (but I will not use it) and XLR inputs... Well, the possibility to record good studio condenser mics directly in sync with the footage could change my mind (XLR is a feature that - in my opinion - alone is worth the price difference!) BUT... You know that preamps make the difference! For example my Zoom H4 is a very flexible recorder, but honestly its preamps suck. After a test I've seen in youtube, it seems that Shogun's XLR preamps too are pretty poor.
But... Atomos is not the only recorder for DSLR.
Sound Devices is well known for superb audio-recorder and hi-end preamps. Video Devices (video oriented offshoot of Sound Devices) sells a video recorder for DSLR at the same price of the Ninja Assassin, the smaller 5" PIX-E5H, and it does more or less the same things: no-RAW but 4K 10bit 422 HQ Proress vis HDMI! And more then this: up to now Ninja Assassin and Shogun can capture only UHD (3840*2160) from my GH4, while PIX-E5H declares 4K DCI (4096*2160) right now, so it matches the C4K format of the GH4. But the main thing for me is the possibility to add a little screw-on optional device, the relative cheap PIX-LR, that gives us a pair of XLR preamps. Not common preamps, but Sound Devices preamps!
Well, I didn't test them, but I'm pretty sure that finally we have hi-end audio directly in DSLR footage.

What do you think, guys?
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D Fuller

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 10:29:39 pm »

I don't know the device, but I do know Sound Devices and some of the other PIX recorders. They are very good. So this stands a good chance of being quite a good bit of kit for this purpose.

Two notes: first, a 5" screen is REALLY small if you want to use it for focus at 4K. So be forewarned on that. Especially in the unlit shooting environments you've mentioned. Second, running audio cables to a device attached to a small camera like a GH4 is not ideal. It adds a lot of weight and screws up the balance pretty completely. It stops being the nice little camera you like. But then, ideal is a sound guy with a separate recorder and a great ear, and that's a lot more money. Just know that you're headed down the path everybody else who uses DSLRs is on--you need a rats' nest of cables and add-ons to make the things work like you need them to, so you end up spending more money with Wooden Camera and Zacuto than the camera cost in. The first place. But that's where the technology for this business is at the moment, so you're kind of stuck with that. Just watch out for the trap of buying too much expensive stuff to hang off the camera until you're sure it's solving some real problem for you.


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fredjeang2

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 05:00:08 am »

Don't know if you remember this below

Imo the design and price were just nailed.
Very surprising that they didn't keep going with
This line and just focussed on the GH3 and 4.

A similar design with the today's tech and robust codec
Would be a winner, in indy and low budgets.
No fancy rigs and weak cablery, integrated ND, XLR etc...
No extra costs and quite small.
At that time people rushed into the GH2 because it was hackable
And this model wasn't. But this is a much more sensible
Camera than a dslr.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 05:11:19 am by fredjeang2 »
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 09:43:56 am »

Thanks for your replies

Running audio cables to a device attached to a small camera like a GH4 is not ideal. It adds a lot of weight and screws up the balance pretty completely. It stops being the nice little camera you like.
I perfectly agree with you! Infact I don't think to use the PIX-LR with XLR mics etc. on a rig!
No, I plan to use two different kind of set:
1. mobile/daily set: just the camera, the tiny shotgun and the monitor-recorder (just one cable);
2. "piano" set: when I need to record the piano (long static takes) I simply add the PIX-LR to connect 2 condenser studio mics on stands.
Very flexible I think.

A 5" screen is REALLY small if you want to use it for focus at 4K. So be forewarned on that. Especially in the unlit shooting environments you've mentioned.
This is the main doubt: at first I thought to buy PIX-E7 (7" like Shogun) but I've found many people saying that 7" is too much for tiny cams like GH4 or A7S, and all they prefer a "more balanced" 5" monitor. Contrarwise, your advice is to prefer usability on balance, is that right?
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bcooter

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 09:46:44 am »



What do you think, guys?


It's your life, your work, but don't fall down the rabbit hole of buying stuff for a little camera, cause it will costs you more than a larger camera in the end.

Listen to this:

http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/08/23/the-wizard-of-hollywood-robert-rodriguez/

Then realize that all it takes is hard work, creativity and some low budget thought on how to make what you have work.

8 bit 10 bit on the gh4 won't make much difference.   Shooting within it's capabilities will.

For sound, just find a used Tascam and a good Sony mic.  For the price the Sony mics are great and you can make a boom out of a broom handle and put it on a stand with some insulation to stop hum.

Then run a cheap shoe mount mic for scratch and plural eyes will sync it up.

All it takes is logical workflow and willingness, because there is no reason to turn a 1 lb camera into a 8 lb videocam.



IMO

BC
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 10:31:58 am »

Really, I don't want to turn a 1lb camera into a 8lb videocam ;)

As I said, I will daily use the GH4 with its little shotgun (it seems that Panasonic works better with its MS2 shotgun) and a recorder to output Prores. That's all.

Audio thing is a completely different project: I usually record piano music (I'm a pianist for classic music) with my MOTU896 card, my AudioTechnica mics and my MacBook. I've never recorded the piano with video devices, only audio for audio purpose. I thought to add video to my recordings, but I don't like making sync in post with PluralEyes because stretching the audio alters piano frequencies and gets worse the audio quality. An ideal solution is to caputer audio and video with the same machine, but it seems that no video devices (with or without XLR plugs) can match the quality of a MOTU audio card (or similar audio-dedicated card). So, after all, in some cases the tiny PIX-LR (Sound Devices quality) could do the job of the MOTU card, simply adding the video (via PIX-E recorder) to my audio recordings.
It's not a daily video rig! It's an audio "plus" set hypothesis.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 10:34:20 am by adrjork »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 11:18:03 am »

What about a Tascam DR60D?
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 11:54:40 am »

If your purpose is just interview audio quality, Tascam devices are good, but for classic music are not the choice! Classic music needs hi-end quality workflow. Naturally you are not always in your studio, with your audio cards etc. So, if you need a mobile audio devices, you need Sound Devices recorders. Unfortunally they are really expensive. And it seems that (up to now) nothing cheaper can match a similar quality (my Zoom H4 is almost unusable for classic music purpose).
In my modest opinion, if you can't afford a Sound Devices recorder, it's better to save money and weight using just any little 3.5mm shotgun that can work with your camera.
So you can image my enthusiasm finding the PIX-LR! Probably the only pro-quality audio device designed for DSLR! (I hope.)
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D Fuller

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 10:11:21 pm »

I don't like making sync in post with PluralEyes because stretching the audio alters piano frequencies and gets worse the audio quality. An ideal solution is to caputer audio and video with the same machine, but it seems that no video devices (with or without XLR plugs) can match the quality of a MOTU audio card (or similar audio-dedicated card).

There is no reason to alter the frequencies. Not since, oh, I don't know, 1998? That is, unless you screw something up, or you change the delivery intent of your project after you shoot. (I could give a long elesson in why that wass once necessary, but I'll save you that pain.) Suffice it to say that it's not been necessary to alter audio frequencies for video for a long time. The camera's clock is stable; the audio recorder's clock is stable, you just have to be sure you have everybody recording for the same delivery intent. That usually means don't set the camera up wrong. If you intend to deliver for American TV, then shoot at 23.976fps or 29.97fps. If you're delivering for European TV it means 25fps. (Math is so much simpler in Europe.) If your recorder has a clock that references video rates, make sure that is set the same as the camera. You're not using timecode with any of the devices you are taliking about, so that's not a factor.

So... your MOTU setup will work fine.
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 10:55:51 pm »

Y...yes, that's right. With MOTU (or similar cards) you can set the clock on your video frame rate, it's true, but it's not pretty portable set.
When I wrote about altered frequencies I didn't think about MOTU, I thought about a sad experience with a little 25fps-only handycam + the 23,97-only Zoom H4. Stretching audio in post with a computer didn't change the pitch, that's also true of course, but it altered sound quality.
So, I think it's possible to do the job with on one side audio card and a computer for audio capturing, and on the other side a video recorder for video capturing, but I think that a video recorder that can do both (audio and video) with pro-quality is a good new, and a more portable solution (no computer, no MOTU, not bad!) also because - more or less - Shogun and PIX-E7 (or Ninja Assassin and PIX-E5H) cost the same.
 
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D Fuller

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 11:04:17 pm »

Y...yes, that's right. With MOTU (or similar cards) you can set the clock on your video frame rate, it's true, but it's not pretty portable set.
When I wrote about altered frequencies I didn't think about MOTU, I thought about a sad experience with a little 25fps-only handycam + the 23,97-only Zoom H4. Stretching audio in post with a computer didn't change the pitch, that's also true of course, but it altered sound quality.
So, I think it's possible to do the job with on one side audio card and a computer for audio capturing, and on the other side a video recorder for video capturing, but I think that a video recorder that can do both (audio and video) with pro-quality is a good new, and a more portable solution (no computer, no MOTU, not bad!) also because - more or less - Shogun and PIX-E7 (or Ninja Assassin and PIX-E5H) cost the same.

But here's the thing. You're producing WAV files, right? and there is no Time Code involved. So as long as you set your editor's project rate to the same project rate your camera was shooting, and you don't do anything to the WAV files other than copy them, and you have a sync point. you should have no problem. If you do, you're changing something along the way.
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2015, 09:11:39 am »

Perhaps I'm wrong, but .wav or .aiff do have TC info. Wave files directly copied from Zoom H4 do have frame rate: 23,97fps. If I set editor and camera with the same rate (25fps) and I import wave files from Zoom without touch them to the sync point, the result is all out of sync. It's for that reason that MOTU and Logic (or similar pro-DAWs) have the possibility to change framerate setting, I guess.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 10:02:18 am »

Audio has no fps but I've beard that there is a "bug" on fcp
In the sense that it assigns fps.
Check fcp imputs on that aspect.
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 11:45:44 am »

Are you sure? I've heard that any audio device assigns fps (it's for that reason - someone said to me - that a pro-audio card receives TC). Instead, you are saying that having video @25fps and Zoom's audio, the two streams will be in sync in Premiere, while out-sync in FCP? Well... another good new :)
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fredjeang2

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 12:35:08 pm »

if FCP timestamps the audio file from the zoom, then here we go...and the hassle is served on a Golden plate.

But I ignore FCP to be able to go further. Check out that
The sample rate of your audio file and the sample rate
Of your fcp project are matching.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 12:45:53 pm by fredjeang2 »
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2015, 07:22:40 pm »

Yes, same sample rate.
I think it will be interesting to repeat the same work with Premiere instead FCP. I will test.
Thanks.
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D Fuller

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 09:24:37 pm »

Yes, same sample rate.
I think it will be interesting to repeat the same work with Premiere instead FCP. I will test.
Thanks.
I don't know enough about how audio programs handle project clock rates (or frame rates) to talk about them. But all video programs I know of are locked at the project or sequience level to a frame rate. (If they were not, undercranking and overcranking would have no meaning or predictability., and audio would never stay in sync.)

When video is imported, if the project framerate (sometimes called base framerate) of the video files don't match the project rate they are being imported into, the video will have issues. It will skip frames or have repeated frames from time to time, depending on the naturer of the mismatch.

When a WAV file is imported, it has no frame rate, but since video programs operate on frame-based time system, the program "assigns" it a framerate (sort of) specifically the project frame rate. What that really means is that the editing program makes the audio file's clock coherent with and addressable in frame terms, so that video-frame-based editing can work and everything will stay in sync.

Separate issue--the audio sample rates need to mach the project rates on import as well, or conversion will be required, and will usually happen "auto magically", with varying results. :-)

Syncing, then, is a simple matter of finding a frame on the two sources that are known to be happening at the same time and telling the program those two files are in sync at that point. (That's what slates with clappers are for, though there are other ways to do it.) With any video camera I've ever used (and that's a long list), and any audio recorder worth using, there will be no appreciable drift or time mismatch once sync is established, provided that the project rates are all correct on import. (Here I have to say that my use of FCPX is pretty limited. I do all audio syncing in Resolve or RedCineX at this point, but I have done lots of syncing in Premiere and Avid, and I expect that FCPX handles clock references on import in a similar way. But what's likely is that FCPX hides the functions, so that it's not obvious what it's doing, and therefore it'll be much harder to troubleshoot if you're doing something wrong.)

Where you run into problems with audio sync is when you use a camera set to 24fps, for example, and put that material into a 23.976fps project. You can tell the editing program to see it as 23.976, but the video is no longer running at it's original speed, so all audio will be out of sync unless you change its playback speed as well. (That used to be the norm for film-based TV in the US, because film cameras were clocked at 24fps, and were transferred to video at 29.97fps interlaced, which, even with 3:2 pulldown didn't quite match, so all the audio had to be cross-reference resolved to match the slightly slower playback speed.) That's not ben necessary for a long time--even with film--but if you want to avoid all that, you have to decide what your deliverable is at the beginning, and keep that as the clock rate for everything throughout the process.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 09:35:52 pm by D Fuller »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2015, 05:47:04 am »

If you set your project to 25p and you see in fcpx
That the audio from your zoom is 23.97
Then it means that fcpx prestamp the audio incorrectly.
(metadata)

As we said, audio has no fps, but as it is a video
Concept, when importing, the software has to
Assign a framerate according to the project to make
Sync possible.

It might well be what Dave said: there is probably an hidden
Setting in your NLE that would fix the issue.
All I know is that issues with audio sync are legendary with
Fcp, it has gained a reputation on that aspect for some reasons
I ignore cause I don't use it. I suspect that Dave is right,
It is more likely to be a setting that is hidden somewhere.

What I understand is that you shooted with the naughty GH4
At 25fps, you assigned logically your fcpx project to
25, and you see that your separate zoom file has been
Stamped to 23.97 when importing in the project.
And you confirmed that all sample rate are matching.
That makes no sense as your audio file has no fps until
It is being importing to the project wich is 25 and therefore
Should have been stamped to 25.
That's what I said earlier, of fcpx prestamps audio (instead
Of spamping) then there will be hassles.
And why would a NLE prestamp audio on import as a default setting?
Makes no sense either. All that is weired.
Check then import options. Things like that.

Chris Sanderson, if he sees that, as a hard core FCPx user,
May have the clue.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 06:10:50 am by fredjeang2 »
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adrjork

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2015, 12:11:53 pm »

I'm not an expert, but if wave files have no fps, why do Logic Pro, Digital Performer, Pro Tools and all other DAWs have fps in their recorder setting menu? Of course not for audio-only projects benefit (infact you can set Logic to not assign any fps info) but in the case of using recorded wave files as part of a video project. So - I agree - fps is assigned to wave files, but I've the doubt that this assignment happens durig the recording session or perhaps the saving session, but anyway in the recording software, in the DAW. Could it be?
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fredjeang2

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Re: Is PIX-E5H + PIXLR combo the final solution for hi-end audio in DSLR?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2015, 02:00:31 pm »

Your video camera and the audio device must be linked to the same clock and That's not That I know possible in the GH4.

so both devices must be sync otherwise nothing happens.

same story by the way with sync several cameras to a timecode.
there must be a link beetween all devices otherwise it's
pointless. in a way or another, devices must be in
comunication between the timecode device so they share
the same clock, and this is the same principle applyed in audio.
there are protocols and devices must be equiped to receive
stream (signal).
when there is no electronic that can comunicate
the information between devices, the only way
is to use your hands, or a clapperboard.
electronic does just that but more precisely, more
flexible and reliable.


yes, pro video devices can "preassign" a fps, more exactly a timecode, but it's transparent, it belongs to a metadata and just is a stream of reference and is pointless if there is no conection between devices. so there you are in high-end equipment. Zoom h4 and GH4 aren't in those lands.


shoot 48khz and 24bit. is a safe practise.

in fact, if you want to picture in your mind a correspondance
between audio and fps video, you could think that audio recorded
at 48khz records 48.000 audio "frame" (coma) each second.
so audio is "48.000 fps" or 24.000 or 96.000 as an image.
(it's an image to picture a //, not like video)
by a simple math, 48.000:24 are 2000
so in a 24p project you got 2000 "audio frame" for each video
frame. in 25p, 1920 etc...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 12:07:14 pm by fredjeang2 »
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