Pentax 645z color in Capture One deliberately broken?

[torger]

I have Capture One 7 (as I'm not a regular user I haven't cared to upgrade to the latest). I opened a Pentax 645z DNG file there and was going to make a profile using DCamProf.

However there is something strange with the "no color correction" export. Normally the colors should then look desaturated and a fair bit off, but not too off. Instead the "no color correction" for Pentax 645z DNGs look very saturated and very off, blue colors has turned into strong purple, while purple colors are still purple. This pre-compression and pre-distortion of color makes it impossible for DCamProf, and any other profile maker, to make a good profile. I've attached how a normal "no color correction" export should look, and then how it looks from C1, both are from the same 645z file. The C1 colors are obviously broken. The file: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-645z/645ZhVFAI000100.DNG.HTM

I wonder if this is a bug in C1-7 and maybe fixed to C1-8 (someone with C18 that can confirm?), or could the conspiracy theory be true that Phase One has deliberately broken the colors of Pentax 645z files to make it impossible to profile the camera and thus avoid competition with their own medium format products?

[AlterEgo]

the conspiracy

indeed ! but what if you try to replace some tags to present the camera model as for example a small Ricoh camera ... will C1 code make double check for image dimensions ?

[torger]

indeed ! but what if you try to replace some tags to present the camera model as for example a small Ricoh camera ... will C1 code make double check for image dimensions ?

I'm just doing this for I've seen some interest in 645z C1 profiles with my software, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it. If Phase One really wants to shut Pentax out I'll let them do it, it's their software afterall. As a side effect of other raw conversion work I have software that can convert 645z DNG files into IQ250 IIQ files, so I could hack it that way too. I'd just like to know if there's a non-hack way to use Pentax 645z files in Capture One.

[mgrayson]

I can't open that file in C1 v8.3.2. It opens fine in PS6.

Leica S DNGs open in C1, but they are not supported. I don't know what is wrong with the Pentax, although Phase are clear that other MF cameras are not welcome.

--Matt

[Torbjörn Tapani]

This is why I will never use Capture One.

[AlterEgo]

As a side effect of other raw conversion work I have software that can convert 645z DNG files into IQ250 IIQ files

I 'd say this is way to go ! that way ACR/LR shall be able to work with them too (I mean that conversion will not render other converter workless)

[AlterEgo]

This is why I will never use Capture One.

And P1 logic is that this is why you shall never use Pentax MF  ... public company shall consider divesting C1 business though, unfortunately P1 is not

[Malcolm Payne]

I could be wrong, but I don't think C1 supports Pentax 645z files at all, which I understand to be a policy decision. My c1 8.3.3 doesn't even appear to see your file, unless I'm missing something here (I don't use DNG files, so I have nothing to compare it to). It opens fine in PS CS6, so there's nothing wrong with the file.

If there's another way of opening DNGs in C1, let me know and I'll have another try.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[torger]

Ah ok... maybe it's simply just not supported by policy in the later versions then. I just realized that C1-7 is probably older than 645z, so that it opens for me is just because it's a generic DNG file, and the strange colors is probably some sort of DNG bug they had at the time.

[Ken R]

C1Pro is mainly made to serve their own Medium Format Digital backs. They support a lot of smaller format cameras well, including the A7RII, because they are not direct competition to their MFDB's and a lot of PhaseOne back owners have smaller format cameras as well. Phase One has clearly stated that they will not support other manufacturer's medium format digital products. Just the way it is.

[AlterEgo]

C1Pro is mainly made to serve their own Medium Format Digital backs. They support a lot of smaller format cameras well, including the A7RII, because they are not direct competition to their MFDB's and a lot of PhaseOne back owners have smaller format cameras as well.

C1Pro sells commercially and brings money to the table... even when you are a P1 MF owner you still have to pay to work with your small cameras 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

My experience with C1-7 was that DNG support sucks. Regarding v8 I have it but did not buy it as I don't think it fits my workflow, so I cannot tell about DNG support.

Best regards
Erik

Ah ok... maybe it's simply just not supported by policy in the later versions then. I just realized that C1-7 is probably older than 645z, so that it opens for me is just because it's a generic DNG file, and the strange colors is probably some sort of DNG bug they had at the time.

[synn]

This is why I will never use Capture One.

This is why I will never use any other MF camera than phamiyaleaf.
It goes both ways, you know?

[torger]

Going back I sort of knew this, but I had forgot. Since I sold my Leaf back I almost never use C1 so it had slipped out of my mind. I've heard that Leica S DNG files are "supported" which got me a bit confused too.

I understand their policy perfectly well. By supporting Hassy and Pentax MF offers they would only sell a few more C1 licenses (it's a small market after all), but they would risk losing sales of their own MF cameras, I guess one lost MF camera sale would equal like 50 C1 licenses or so. C1 is a central part in the Phase One "eco system" and important for getting the sale.

When it comes to us users it depends on your workflow how dependent you are on the raw converter. Some simply make a base conversion and then directly move to Photoshop, which is probably the best way if you want to avoid lock-in (except for getting locked into Photoshop of course... but at least you don't need to worry about that you need to relearn post-processing techniques if you change camera brands). I switched from Leaf to Hasselblad, which normally would mean switching from C1 to Phocus, but as a programmer it meant reverse-engineering the Hassy H4D-50 calibration data format so I could continue use RawTherapee

If I wouldn't code that much, I'd probably use Lightroom with custom profiles (Photoshop is in most cases overkill for my post-processing needs), free from camera brand lock-in and with custom profiles you can get away from Adobe's color which I'm not particularly fond of.

[Doug Peterson]

35mm (and other small sensors): Capture One supports nearly all 35mm cameras. If a particular camera is not supported, make a support case requesting support and if they get any meaningful number of such requests it will be added.
Medium Format: Capture One only supports and will only support Team Phase One medium format cameras/backs (Phase/Leaf/Mamiya). No other medium format solutions are supported.

Note that this post is not advocating, defending, or explaining these policies... I'm just clarifying them.

[torger]

Thanks for the clarification.

The reason for the confusion I guess is that both Pentax and Leica make generic DNG files and thus C1 versions made before these cameras were released may open the file as such, but produce bad colors, as it happened for me. Then when a later C1 version arrives the DNG files of the new cameras are detected and ignored. So I guess that the Leica S file opening I've heard about is temporary too.

[AlterEgo]

I'm just clarifying them.

Thank you... can you clarify the following : does P1 actively blocking other MFs ? that is going out of the way to find out that DNG file is in fact from a competition and making it impossible code-wise to work with it as with generic DNG ? you are understand of course the difference between not supporting and trying your best to screw things for the user, right ?

[Paul2660]

Thanks for the clarification.

The reason for the confusion I guess is that both Pentax and Leica make generic DNG files and thus C1 versions made before these cameras were released may open the file as such, but produce bad colors, as it happened for me. Then when a later C1 version arrives the DNG files of the new cameras are detected and ignored. So I guess that the Leica S file opening I've heard about is temporary too.

I wonder if it's only the header in the exif data, i.e. the name of the camera being 645z.  With LR I have worked around this issues (when the XT-1 was released both C1 and LR were a bit slow to get support however the files/sensor image etc were the same as from the X-E2) so I just changed the header. 

It's not something you really want to so a lot of unless you have a batch conversion and being a programmer, Torger I know you might have access to one.

The sensor is the same between all 3 cameras, Hasselblad, Phase, Pentax.  I agree with Michael (LuLa's Michael) that Pentax seems to have gotten the best from the sensor, in both DR and high iso.  They also have focus peaking on the LCD, (getting off topic sorry),
but my point is that you might get by the issue by a file rename.  I realize that the Pentax raw is in a dng format so it this might not work.  I have heard that you can open Lecia DNG in C1, but of course there is no profile.  Which can be worked around for sure.

Paul

[jwlimages]

Torger, et al,

Have you seen this guy's workaround? http://www.alexmunoz.net/capturefix/

He wrote a Javascript, I suppose, to enable C1 to use Pentax files, even built a default ICC profile for use with them. I've tried it and it works, but C1 v.7 renders the color pretty far off and is reluctant to use the profile if modified.

I'd be curious to hear your experience if you try CaptureFix to access the files & see if that would enable using dcamprof to generate a better profile. I would try myself, but I'm Mac-based and my Unix skill set is firmly in the "for dummies" category...

John

[eronald]

Just grab a Phase Raw file, substitue the pixel data, write the stupid thing back and feed it to C1.
It's not rocket science.

Edmund

I wonder if it's only the header in the exif data, i.e. the name of the camera being 645z.  With LR I have worked around this issues (when the XT-1 was released both C1 and LR were a bit slow to get support however the files/sensor image etc were the same as from the X-E2) so I just changed the header. 

It's not something you really want to so a lot of unless you have a batch conversion and being a programmer, Torger I know you might have access to one.

The sensor is the same between all 3 cameras, Hasselblad, Phase, Pentax.  I agree with Michael (LuLa's Michael) that Pentax seems to have gotten the best from the sensor, in both DR and high iso.  They also have focus peaking on the LCD, (getting off topic sorry),
but my point is that you might get by the issue by a file rename.  I realize that the Pentax raw is in a dng format so it this might not work.  I have heard that you can open Lecia DNG in C1, but of course there is no profile.  Which can be worked around for sure.

Paul