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Author Topic: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money  (Read 11359 times)

aaronchan

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This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« on: September 11, 2015, 01:11:44 am »

https://www.youtube.com/user/bellevuefineart/

I have opened my 9880 ink cart before, and of cuz since that is just a 220ml cart, it won't have 50ml left in the bag.
But still at least around 8-10ml left in the bag everytime when it said my ink is out.
But on the 9900 which uses the 700ml cart, this is crazy.
First of all, it is a waste and bad for the environment. Second is some people just might not know about it and thought they have used up all 700ml in their cart then go buy a new one.
This is ridiculous!

aaron

cybis

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 01:39:34 am »

Yep, I agree, this is ridiculous.

Just to be sure, have you measured brand new cartridges? Is there a chance a 700 ml contains more than 700ml of ink and whatís left is just some unusable ink? (just being the devilís advocate here). Or is it really the case that a 700 ml cartridge only contains 580 ml of usable ink? Anyone knows the legal implication of this?

The other way Epson owners are getting screwed is by the amount of ink that ends up in the maintenance tank (see my post here:
Epson 9900 - Ink consumption values of various cleaning procedures 
)

So if (conservatively) 40% of a cartridge ends up in the maintenance tank, and 17% stays in the cartridge, that means only 300 ml of 700 ml ends up on paper!!!!
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hanzo

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 03:52:44 am »

why dont we band together and sue Epson  ;D



I'm serious  >:(
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 04:25:16 am »

The subject title should be "This is how A printer manufacturer takes your money"   I have no complaints about the HP Z models, empty carts contain at most 1 to 2 ML , no waste tank replaced in near 9 years on one and near 7 years on the other.

I have seen "Sue Epson" messages on that subject for 15 years and no results while there were good reasons for an action like that, I recall the first 9600 firmware that left percent wise even more ink in the carts. Vote with your feet, wallet, whatever but going to court has been a dead end so far.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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DeanChriss

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 07:03:23 am »

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deanwork

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2015, 08:45:16 am »

A friend of mine in Chicago used to go around to all the labs in Chicago to collect all the used Epson ink carts they would discard.
Then he opened them up and put the ink in a refillable cart. You'd be surprised at how much ink he was able to get out of them.
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Ken Doo

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2015, 10:03:50 am »

Epson was indeed sued over this in 2006. The settlement can be found at
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/class-counsel-and-epson-america-announce-class-action-settlement-56411722.html


Yup, I remember this one. We got to buy .......more Epson ink!  Maybe Epson figures it is easier to throw more ink at us than resolve the issue??

I'm not sure what is the impediment to using more of the residual ink in the cartridge.  Is it a bad chip or program issue? It isn't a consistent issue.  I've got a matte black 350ml----9900 says it is empty, yet by estimated volume (lift and shake) it is about 1/4 full! Most of the time, it seems my cartridges are pretty emptied or pretty darn close.

ken

DeanChriss

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2015, 02:59:58 pm »

Yup, I remember this one. We got to buy .......more Epson ink!  Maybe Epson figures it is easier to throw more ink at us than resolve the issue??

I'm not sure what is the impediment to using more of the residual ink in the cartridge.  Is it a bad chip or program issue? It isn't a consistent issue.  I've got a matte black 350ml----9900 says it is empty, yet by estimated volume (lift and shake) it is about 1/4 full! Most of the time, it seems my cartridges are pretty emptied or pretty darn close.

ken

I've never had an issue with an "empty" cartridge feeling anything like 25% full. They always feel as you say, "pretty emptied or pretty darn close". I don't know whether a given ink cartridge has the stated amount (say 350 ml) or whether it has 350 ml plus an amount that allows the user to actually extract 350 ml without running the print head dry. I seem to recall that after the referenced lawsuit, or perhaps a different one, it was the latter. I do know that when my 7900 gets to 1% remaining ink in a cartridge it will usually print for a long time (much longer than any of the previous 1% increments) before actually running out of ink. If the printer accurately meters the ink it uses, that means it used more than 350 ml from a 350 ml cartridge, so there was more than the stated amount in the cartridge when it was new.

Regardless, in the grand scheme of things the cost of ink is hardly a major portion of costs for any given year. When you think about the labor and materials that go into a framed print, the cost of ink almost doesn't count. The only things that cost less are the picture hanging wire and Bumpons.

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deanwork

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2015, 03:55:54 pm »

Compared to the ink that ends up in the waste tanks, the residual ink left in the carts is negligible.



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DeanChriss

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2015, 07:32:08 pm »

All of this made me curious, so I went through all of our records of ink and maintenance tank purchases, looked at the remaining capacities of those currently installed in the printer, and figured that half of the initial (100ml cartridges?) and half of the initial waste tank were consumed with the initialization of the printer when it was new (over 6.5 years ago). Based on that my Epson 7900 uses 1 maintenance tank for every 2259 ml of ink consumed. That number certainly isn't accurate to the single ml, but since it's averaged over more than 6.5 years it has to be reasonably close. I don't know how much ink can go into a maintenance tank before the printer declares it "full", but it doesn't look like it could hold 40% of 2259 (=903 ml) along with being packed full of absorbent material to keep it from sloshing and splashing.
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deanwork

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2015, 07:56:28 pm »

No I think 40% is an exaggeration for most of us, but you know it all depends on how many damn head cleanings, and power cleaning you have to do in a year. Some people can go through a huge amount of ink in one week or one month, while someone else may only waste that much in a year. 
It would be nice if this series of printers could be relied on to provide a predictable use of ink and head life like the other 2 brands, but that isn't the case. Very curious to see what the next upgrade will reveal. 

I have to say lately since I've been soaking my pads with distilled water once a week I haven't had to do any cleanings at all this month. That has been a first for me.

john

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Benny Profane

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2015, 09:00:42 pm »

Compared to the ink that ends up in the waste tanks, the residual ink left in the carts is negligible.





Also, and probably much more, the ink wasted on bad prints.
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hanzo

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 01:25:04 am »

another bone of contention for me is their sales policy. its ridiculous to restrict cartridges to be sold to outside USA while its manufactured in MY country.
and the local epson office rep tells me that they "dont have stock".. great!

now I'm asking you all :
is canon a worthy contender in fine art printing space ?
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samueljohnchia

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 05:16:01 am »



It appears that Epson 3880 ink carts are made in China. Are 79/9900 printer inks also made in China nowadays?

now I'm asking you all :
is canon a worthy contender in fine art printing space ?

Yes, why would it not be? Bill Atkinson is using a Canon iPF9400 printer for example.
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DeanChriss

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2015, 08:24:29 am »

It appears that Epson 3880 ink carts are made in China. Are 79/9900 printer inks also made in China nowadays?

Most of the X900 ink cartridges I have purchased were made in Japan. More recently they are made in Indonesia. It's quite possible that Epson manufactures ink in multiple locations.

No I think 40% is an exaggeration for most of us, but you know it all depends on how many damn head cleanings, and power cleaning you have to do in a year. Some people can go through a huge amount of ink in one week or one month, while someone else may only waste that much in a year.  
It would be nice if this series of printers could be relied on to provide a predictable use of ink and head life like the other 2 brands, but that isn't the case. Very curious to see what the next upgrade will reveal.  

I have to say lately since I've been soaking my pads with distilled water once a week I haven't had to do any cleanings at all this month. That has been a first for me.

john


Interesting about the distilled water. I agree with all of that. These machines can be frustrating at times. I've never had to do a "power cleaning", and only once did a "powerful cleaning", so I guess I'm lucky. The others were all "normal" or "normal color pairs". I've had a couple 3 month stretches with no cleanings since December 2008. Those always happen in winter. In summer I might go three weeks, but that's about max. OTOH it's not uncommon to have to do cleanings days apart. The only predictability seems to be that the printer acts far better in winter, when its environment is cooler and much dryer. That's no typo. I assume dryness wouldn't help anything, so I think it's temperature. It never gets above 73 degrees F or so in summer, but in winter it can be as cold as 65 degrees F, but the relative humidity is much lower.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 08:29:49 am by DeanChriss »
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Jager

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2015, 11:11:39 am »

My guess is that Epson's chipped carts have no way of determining how much ink remains in a cart.  They are only able to keep track - roughly - of how much ink has been been expelled.  And given the not-very-nice consequences of allowing a cart to actually run dry, that rough measurement is tailored to be very conservative.

One of the nice things about any kind of refillable-cart setup is that you're able to utilize every bit of ink that you paid for.  Of course, it's then on you to monitor the carts and make sure none ever run dry.

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deanwork

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2015, 12:11:38 pm »

Yea but the other thing with these Epson printers, especially the big ones, is that you seem to have pressure issues when the carts get really low. At least that has been my experience. I have much less trouble with carts full or halfway full.

j

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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2015, 04:38:10 pm »

now I'm asking you all :
is canon a worthy contender in fine art printing space ?

Lets see...
Comparing Canon IPF 8400 to Epson 9900 we have:

1) Canon is faster (not by much).
2) Canon inks have way better longevity than epsons.
3) Canon has a bigger color gamut on glossy while Espon has bigger gamut on matte papers (both relatively close).
4) Canon uses way less ink.
5) Canon never clogs.
6) Canon has user replaceable heads.
7) Canon has an internal hard drive and some quite smart functions (accounting, job storage and recall directly on the printer...)
8 ) Canon has an internal densitometer that helps linearizing the printer.
9) Epson has a finer dithering in theory (360/720 against 300/600) but under the microscope you see that actually very few dots are of the smaller size, most are as big as the dots from 300/600 printer. On the naked eye there is no perceivable difference.

Quite frankly I don't believe that Epson is a worthy contender. I had printers from all three (Canon, HP and Epson) and today I keep only HP and Canon. HP is probably bailing out of the fine art segment, but to this date no printer produces a better B&W print with OEM inks than the HP Z3xxx. Canon is the best option at this moment in my opinion. Epsons are capable of producing prints that look as good as the ones from Canons, but not so easy and at greater cost and with potential headaches, not to mention the lower permanence rating.

Regards.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 07:30:30 pm by Geraldo Garcia »
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Benny Profane

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2015, 05:48:54 pm »

Worthy contender? That's silly. Why are so many sold?
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hanzo

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Re: This is how printer manufacturer makes your money
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2015, 11:52:31 pm »

Worthy contender? That's silly. Why are so many sold?

Popular choice does not necessarily mean its the.. _best_  ;D

Lets see...
Comparing Canon IPF 8400 to Epson 9900 we have:

1) Canon is faster (not by much).
2) Canon inks have way better longevity than epsons.
3) Canon has a bigger color gamut on glossy while Espon has bigger gamut on matte papers (both relatively close).
4) Canon uses way less ink.
5) Canon never clogs.
6) Canon has user replaceable heads.
7) Canon has an internal hard drive and some quite smart functions (accounting, job storage and recall directly on the printer...)
8 ) Canon has an internal densitometer that helps linearizing the printer.
9) Epson has a finer dithering in theory (360/720 against 300/600) but under the microscope you see that actually very few dots are of the smaller size, most are as big as the dots from 300/600 printer. On the naked eye there is no perceivable difference.

Quite frankly I don't believe that Epson is a worthy contender. I had printers from all three (Canon, HP and Epson) and today I keep only HP and Canon. HP is probably bailing out of the fine art segment, but to this date no printer produces a better B&W print with OEM inks than the HP Z3xxx. Canon is the best option at this moment in my opinion. Epsons are capable of producing prints that look as good as the ones from Canons, but not so easy and at greater cost and with potential headaches, not to mention the lower permanence rating.

Regards.

Interesting, but I'm just an amateur.. not using big rigs. Probably the more suitable comparison are Pixma pro line with R3xxx series
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