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Author Topic: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows  (Read 22760 times)

Ferp

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In a recent thread on Mike Johnson's The Online Photographer Blog, both Andrew Rodney and Dave Polaschek stated that printing from Photoshop on Windows using "Printer Manages Color" will "guarantee that your color data will be converted to sRGB". No argument there.

But what if you choose the printer color profile to be the same as the image profile?  E.g. you have an image in ProPhotoRGB and you select ProPhotoRGB as the printer profile?  Photoshop throws up a warning that this is not supported, but as far as I can tell, nothing bad happens, and least not on Windows (Mac may well be different).

Is that true?  Can you do this on Windows and still manage to send the image to the driver or RIP or PDF printer still in ProPhotoRGB?  I've searched on this and I can't find a definitive statement, although I did find something from Jeff Schewe a few years ago that implied it would work, and that the message on Windows was just to ensure consistent behaviour between Windows and Mac.

I'm using CS6 on W7-64 if that makes any difference.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 08:46:48 pm »

ProPhoto is a colour working space, not a device profile. Your paper/printer profile is a device profile meant to produce correct colour for the printer and paper combination you are printing with.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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r010159

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 09:12:58 pm »

This is the way I printed without color management for my RIP profiles. But that does not mean that the RIP is not still doing something with the colors. So you need to experiment.
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Ferp

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 12:24:35 am »

ProPhoto is a colour working space, not a device profile. Your paper/printer profile is a device profile meant to produce correct colour for the printer and paper combination you are printing with.

Yes, I do understand this Mark.  I do know the difference.  But there are more ways of operating with the Photoshop print dialog than simply printing direct to a physical printer and having Photoshop handle the color management by converting to a printer/paper ICC on-the-fly.  If you use a RIP then that would typically do the CM, as the post after yours noted.  If you're printing to PDF then there may be situations when you do not want the image to be simply converted to sRGB, as would happen if you used "Printer Manages Colours".  Just trust us that we have a reason for wanting to operate this way in certain specific situations.

This is the way I printed without color management for my RIP profiles. But that does not mean that the RIP is not still doing something with the colors. So you need to experiment.

Yes.  In the RIP case I *want* the RIP to do something with the colors.  What I want to be absolutely sure of is that if I configure Photoshop this way on Windows, that *it's* not doing something to them as well.  That TOP thread had me a little uncertain.  I was hoping that one of the CM gurus could confirm the behavior of Photoshop on Windows.  Thanks.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 12:41:03 am »

Understood. Perhaps this article will help with the PDF issue?
http://www.gballard.net/acrobat_pro/convert_colors/
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 07:54:24 am »

In a recent thread on Mike Johnson's The Online Photographer Blog, both Andrew Rodney and Dave Polaschek stated that printing from Photoshop on Windows using "Printer Manages Color" will "guarantee that your color data will be converted to sRGB". No argument there.

Well, I'm not arguing, but it does surprise me.  

Lightroom explicitly does not convert to sRGB if you use "Managed by printer".  The help file says "To send the image data to the printer driver without first converting the image according to a profile, choose Managed By Printer." (My emphasis.)

I'd assume that Photoshop did the same, but reading the help file it's ambigous.  In the case that "Printer Manages Colours" there really is no conversion for Photoshop to do (I mean, it has no idea what colour space to convert to) but the Rendering Intent box is still active.

Does it convert to sRGB, even when the printer is managing colour conversion?  Why would it do that?

Sometimes one can understand the design choices of Photoshop only by studying medieval graphic design practices.  I have images of Thomas Knoll consulting cloistered monks illustrating hand-copied bibles and finding out how they manage colours.  
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Ferp

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 09:33:59 am »

I was a little surprised too about the conversion to sRGB when "Printer Manages Colors".  Why?  I think it's to protect the color management challenged out there, who don't know what they're doing.  But what about those that do?  What about ABW, as someone said in that thread?  It means that everything you send for ABW printing needs to be in sRGB if you want to avoid Photoshop converting it.  You can do this, even if your image is in Grey Gamma 2.2, by converting to AdobeRGB (essentially the same thing, but in RGB), then assigning to sRGB.  But it's a more complex workfow.  Same applies if you want to tell the driver that the image is in something other than sRGB, like AdobeRGB, and get it to handle the conversion (not something that I'd recommend, but not entirely silly).

In that Online Photographer Blog thread, Dave Polaschek is from Adobe so I take his word as authoritative and Andrew Rodney is well-known here, and the same comment applies.  They were quite definite about what Photoshop does in Windows.  What LR does was less clear, IIRC.

I've done a little more research and Printfab recommends that you operate as I suggested - i.e. set the printer profile to be the document profile - and that you ignore the warning from Photoshop.  It seems to work, from my testing so far.  Perhaps a safer option is to print from Qimage, which allows a color-management-off workflow.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 09:54:56 am »

There is a way round any conversion to sRGB, but still have the printer manage the conversion to the printer colour space.

You specify "Photoshop Manages Colors" in Photoshop, but specify Adobe RGB as the "Printer Profile" (you could use ProPhoto RGB, but probably not a good idea if there's an 8-bit path to the printer).  Then in the printer setup, select the settings for printer managing colour space management, and specify the source colour space as Adobe RGB.  I think that's what you are saying, but I wasn't quite sure.

I do this in Lightroom in the rare occasions I want printer-manages-colours, as otherwise (AFAIK) in Windows, if you set Lightroom printing to "Managed by printer", it sends 8-bit ProPhoto RGB to the printer.  (It's a while since I tested that, but I think that's what Lightroom does.)
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digitaldog

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 12:26:03 pm »

Is that true?  Can you do this on Windows and still manage to send the image to the driver or RIP or PDF printer still in ProPhotoRGB? 
According to Dave, no, you'll end up with sRGB by virtue of this OS. He writes it's not necessarily the case on Mac if the star's all align:

Quote
When using "Printer Manages Colors" on Mac OS X, with a printer driver that says "Yes, send the color data as-is" when asked about what the application is offering to print, that data will be passed to the driver without conversion. I've done this with CIELAB data. I don't believe Epson's drivers will accept CIELAB, but when last I investigated (when the x900 printers shipped), they would accept ProPhoto RGB when using "Printer Manages Colors." There was only one conversion of the color data to the printer's final profile, and that was done by the driver.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 01:02:54 pm »

This seems to be another of those Photoshop behaviours like the new "Export As..." function. 

I can understand what it does, I just can't understand why
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2015, 01:12:17 pm »

Quote
I don't believe Epson's drivers will accept CIELAB, but when last I investigated (when the x900 printers shipped), they would accept ProPhoto RGB when using "Printer Manages Colors." There was only one conversion of the color data to the printer's final profile, and that was done by the driver.

Excluding RIPs this happens on my Mac in 10.6.8 even on a $50 Epson NX330 "All In One" printing out of Photoshop or OSX's Preview. I haven't tried this printing PDF's, just tiffs in ProPhotoRGB space.

I get pretty close matches but I still can't tell if the print is representing ProPhotoRGB to sRGB conversion or any other space. I have to rely on the reasonable match. Also saturated colors that I'ld think would clip to some off colored posterized blob print fine. I don't even have to use print proofing previews but I only print on Epson papers and with Epson inks. I don't dare use Colorsync in Epson's driver.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 01:22:43 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Ferp

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2015, 08:08:28 pm »

According to Dave, no, you'll end up with sRGB by virtue of this OS. He writes it's not necessarily the case on Mac if the star's all align:

Perhaps there's something I don't understand here Andrew, but I read that quote from Dave on TOP, and I didn't think it addressed my specific question.  He only talked about selecting "Printer Manages Colors".  My question is what happens when you select "Photoshop Manages Colors", but specify a printer profile that is the same as the document profile.  So If your document is in AdobeRGB, you specify that as your printer profile, and ditto for ProPhotoRGB.  Of course this is conceptually the same as "Printer Manages Colors", but it's not clear to me whether or not it has the same practical effect, i.e. will it end up using the same code path in Photoshop. 

Reading again what you and Andrew said in that thread, it wasn't clear whether the reasons that Adobe chose the design decision that it did in the "Printer Manages Colors" case on Windows necessarily applied to the case where I select the printer profile to be the document profile.  After all, I have specified that Photoshop manages colors, and I have specified a printer profile.  It's entirely possible that Adobe coded Photoshop to react to these specific settings by also converting to sRGB, but that wasn't clear from what either of you said, at least not to me.

There are a couple of other issues floating around here.  There's a Mac vs Windows angle, but I'm only interested in Windows.  There's also a question of whether the Epson driver can accept ProPhotoRGB, but that's less of an issue if I'm printing through a RIP which has its own CM engine.  The instructions for one RIP, Printfab, suggest that you print this way on Windows (printer profile = document profile), so I assumed that it would work, but was hoping for independent confirmation.
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digitaldog

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 10:30:29 am »

My question is what happens when you select "Photoshop Manages Colors", but specify a printer profile that is the same as the document profile. 
Why would you do that?
PS might pop an error or you'll maybe get a null profile transform but there's no reason I can think of, prior to my morning coffee anyone could or should do this.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2015, 05:25:32 pm »

Quote
There are a couple of other issues floating around here.  There's a Mac vs Windows angle, but I'm only interested in Windows.

The only angle you need to be concerned about is getting a screen to print match either using a RIP, Photoshop Manages Color or Printer Manages Color.

You're first concern was that Windows converts color data to sRGB when using Printer Manages Color. What does that look like and have you made real world comparisons to prove that Windows changes the color of a print by converting to sRGB vs letting Photoshop color manage the "file data to printer" pipeline?

What's not working for you and how can folks here help you? Speculating what happens under the hood with all these variables is just too confusing and unproductive.

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r010159

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2015, 05:31:53 pm »

You would do this to completely disable color management in
PS. It actually works quite well. But this is an undocumented, unsupported feature. So this means it can go away in the future. I learned about this procedure from PrintFab within documentation they sent me in an email. I have been creating very good profiles this way.

Bob
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2015, 05:39:29 pm »

You would do this to completely disable color management in
PS. It actually works quite well. But this is an undocumented, unsupported feature. So this means it can go away in the future. I learned about this procedure from PrintFab within documentation they sent me in an email. I have been creating very good profiles this way.

Bob

Is this raw state null effect seen in the dark and dull print consistent no matter if having the data in sRGB and choosing sRGB as the printer profile vs ProPhotoRGB source to ProPhotoRGB printer output? If you don't get a dark and dull print then what do the results match to? If it's the screen then how is that a good starting point to build a profile from?
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r010159

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2015, 05:41:04 pm »

When the printer is selected within PS and disabled in the printer driver, the colors are still being altered. I do not mean to sound too forward, but this is pretty common knowledge. I have personal experience with the Mac. This is why it is recommended to print targets using the freely available Adobe Printer Utility instead from within PS.

FWIW :)

Bob
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r010159

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2015, 05:45:07 pm »

Like I said, it works very well for me.  You can assign any profile for this. Even though the colors appear to be goofy, it still prints true with absolutely no color management and can be used for generating profiles.

Bob
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Ferp

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2015, 07:44:15 pm »

Why would you do that?
PS might pop an error or you'll maybe get a null profile transform but there's no reason I can think of, prior to my morning coffee anyone could or should do this.

Well, there are a couple of reasons, but perhaps the simplest one to discuss is the one that I mentioned in my posts and that r010159 also mentioned - because we want to print via a RIP like Printfab and not direct to the printer.  We want Printfab to handle the CM and so we want Photoshop to leave it alone, CM-wise. 

Since Adobe removed the no-CM option from Photoshop, and since "Printer Manages Colors" will silently convert to sRGB, this appears to be the only way.  Photoshop does pop a warning, but on Windows it appears to be only a warning.

So that's the question.   I'm not asking whether it makes any sense to do this.  I'm trying to get some informed feedback on whether this null conversion works, i.e. will Printfab receive the image still in the document space.  r010159 says it does.  I thought that there maybe someone here with enough knowledge of the internal workings of Photoshop to answer the question.
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digitaldog

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Re: Avoiding color management when printing from Photoshop on Windows
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2015, 11:27:45 am »

Doesn't work for me on Mac, if I'm understanding how this null profile would take place. Huge differences between it and ACPU:
--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 700

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (700 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   7.95
    Max dE:  22.01
    Min dE:   0.13
 StdDev dE:   3.87

Best 90% - (629 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   7.10
    Max dE:  12.86
    Min dE:   0.13
 StdDev dE:   3.01

Worst 10% - (71 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:  15.44
    Max dE:  22.01
    Min dE:  12.92
 StdDev dE:   2.21

--------------------------------------------------
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