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Author Topic: A7rII review - single card.  (Read 27038 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Off topics but perhaps interesting...
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2015, 06:31:10 am »

Hi,

This is quite a bit off topic, but it seems that you refer a lot to posterisation on Sony found by Diglloyd and the comments about it. As it happens, I found a case of bad posterisation on the P45+ I have, using Capture One. Now, I normally don't use Capture One but I was checking out the image in C1 as I have seen posterisation with the DCP profile I was using in Lightroom, my preferred tool.

What I have found was:
LR, DNG Profile Editor 131225Posterisation
LR, Adobe Standard ProfileNo posterisation
LR, DCamProf ProfileNo posterisation
Capture One, daylight profilePosterisation

Here are all images: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDLook/20150407-CF046278.jpg

And here is the raw file: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDLook/20150407-CF046278.iiq

I think this illustrates pretty well that colour management can cause posterisation, even on 16 bit P45+ raw files and Capture One is in no way immune from creating posterisation artefacts.

Best regards
Erik

That's where I read it, thank you Erik.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 06:32:49 am by ErikKaffehr »
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David Anderson

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2015, 07:34:55 am »


I fact out of 150 TB's of raw data we've produced the only corrupt files I've seen are about two dozen 1ds2 files because the processor on some cameras couldn't keep up with the chimping (so Canon slowed the camera down) and one RED 1 file that went totally funky because we kept the camera running on set to drag in and shoot some pickup on a hot day for way too long.


Sounds like a very good run.
I've had 3 Sandisk SD's physically break (many years ago admittedly), 1 Lexar SD not work from new not so long ago and lost one SD (back-up card) after a very long shoot.
Never had any issues with a CF card.

Obviously, the chances of something happening are quite low, but I really like the idea of dual cards with one recording JPEGS as a back-up - just seems like common sense to me.






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eronald

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2015, 07:36:41 am »

Hey, I looked up the meaning of "Cooter". I always thought it was a barnayrd bird, now I know different :)

Anyway, methinks that when you have a "tech" to do x, y or z, prepare and check the cards, then your perspective on "professional" is very different from that of the guy with a rucksack who needs to do a whole marriage alone. Of course workstations which are not contaminated with crap will work better but the mom and pop shops cannot afford them etc. The discussion of whether 2 cards are necessary is probably BS, but yes - cheap shooters working an event alone on a sunday or journalists/landscape/travellers in some remote spot actually need reliability more than the cooter with a vanful of equipment, camera backups, and aides attending who can be sent to fetch a spare body or lens from a rental house - which, let us face it is is what really happens in a metropolis: You just send an assistant in a cab to borrow/rent a spare body or lens while the crew gets a beer, lighting is repositioned, dresses adjusted and makeup is refreshed. Because once the shoot goes large it costs, and so there is a Plan B. Let us not forget that the humans break at least as frequently as the equipment.


JMOGP (just my own ground level perspective)
Edmond.



If one card slot turns you away, so be it, but i've shot a billion still images with cameras that do and do not support two cards and never thought about duplicating the images in camera.

We usually have a tech, we're checking as we go in the selected processor because that's the ONLY way to be sure.  If not I'll personally check it as I go and I never shoot a card to full anyway.

And for the record we're not sipping mai tai's waiting on the results of what the tech says, as today every still session for commerce allows about 11 minutes of shooting time.

I fact out of 150 TB's of raw data we've produced the only corrupt files I've seen are about two dozen 1ds2 files because the processor on some cameras couldn't keep up with the chimping (so Canon slowed the camera down) and one RED 1 file that went totally funky because we kept the camera running on set to drag in and shoot some pickup on a hot day for way too long.

No problem with 9 models of canon, 3 phase, 4 nikons, 2 leicas, 1- sony video, 3-REDs (except mentioned), 2- Olympus, 3-Panasonic and 1-Kodak/Nikon.

But to make sure we don't have issues we rigorously match cards or ssds to cameras, format three times, then test, then format again.

When tethering have clean computers, make sure all connections are viable including backups and test those in the "try to F*&$ it up" process, so we're prepared for any issue.

In other words we go out 100% prepared and since we own our own stuff we know it's right and have backups for everything.

We also pay close attention to card readers, drives, and cards, only using lexar, sandisk and RED SSDs.  

I've tried three transcends and had all three go glitchy and if we have a card that doesn't test well we either return it, or throw it in the rubbish bin.

Early on in digital I would get calls from guys that just bought a leaf, a phase, a canon or something screaming they can't download, or tether, but they were using older machines, not enough power, cheap drives, computers loaded with their "social" and web software and having some semi learned assistant doing the dumping and copying.

In other words they had already invented the perfect storm.

Now is the RII a pro camera.  Yes, in the right hands.  My friend Brian Smith http://briansmith.com/photography/ uses it and doesn't see any major issues and he makes his living with a camera in his hand, he's very successful, and probably knows more about Sony still cameras than any working photographer in the western hemisphere.  You don't shoot imagery that debuts in the Library Of Congress, with sub par cameras.

Look I'm not selling Sony cameras,  heck, I'm not selling anything, but most equipment is only as good as the people using it and the levels they go to, to protect their imagery is much more than having a camera with dual slots.

IMO

BC


« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 07:52:51 am by eronald »
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adrian tyler

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2015, 09:11:25 am »

i think he was saying thay he's shot more sd cards - in a professional enviroment - than we've had hot dinners, and that we shouldn't get hung up about it, they are reliable but just use a bit of common sense, buy good cards, fomat well, change often if you can't backup, don't mix on other cameras, etc., all very good advice.

however, everyone has a right to their own particular hangups, and the right to ignore someone with more practical experience than ourselves... take my 9 year old for example... (joke.)
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PeterAit

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2015, 10:10:40 am »

I agree that dual card slots would be ideal, but my take is that SD cards are extremely reliable so it's not much of worry. When using my D600 I use the second slot for overflow, not backup. In many years of shooting I have never had a single SD card error or problem. My approach is to buy only brand name cards and replace them every year or two. And use common sense - don't swap cards while standing on a sewer grating, keep your full cards in a safe and protected place, and so on.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2015, 10:41:00 am »

Hi,

I had two images that have been corrupted in ten years of shooting. Both were sequential on the same CF card.

One thing to keep on mind that memory cards are just one part of the imaging pipeline that can go bad, and a tiny part at that. The best way to achieve redundancy is shooting with two different systems.

Best regards
Erik




I agree that dual card slots would be ideal, but my take is that SD cards are extremely reliable so it's not much of worry. When using my D600 I use the second slot for overflow, not backup. In many years of shooting I have never had a single SD card error or problem. My approach is to buy only brand name cards and replace them every year or two. And use common sense - don't swap cards while standing on a sewer grating, keep your full cards in a safe and protected place, and so on.
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aaron

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2015, 02:22:49 pm »



If one card slot turns you away, so be it, but i've shot a billion still images with cameras that do and do not support two cards and never thought about duplicating the images in camera.

We usually have a tech, we're checking as we go in the selected processor because that's the ONLY way to be sure.  If not I'll personally check it as I go and I never shoot a card to full anyway.

And for the record we're not sipping mai tai's waiting on the results of what the tech says, as today every still session for commerce allows about 11 minutes of shooting time.

I fact out of 150 TB's of raw data we've produced the only corrupt files I've seen are about two dozen 1ds2 files because the processor on some cameras couldn't keep up with the chimping (so Canon slowed the camera down) and one RED 1 file that went totally funky because we kept the camera running on set to drag in and shoot some pickup on a hot day for way too long.

No problem with 9 models of canon, 3 phase, 4 nikons, 2 leicas, 1- sony video, 3-REDs (except mentioned), 2- Olympus, 3-Panasonic and 1-Kodak/Nikon.

But to make sure we don't have issues we rigorously match cards or ssds to cameras, format three times, then test, then format again.

When tethering have clean computers, make sure all connections are viable including backups and test those in the "try to F*&$ it up" process, so we're prepared for any issue.

In other words we go out 100% prepared and since we own our own stuff we know it's right and have backups for everything.

We also pay close attention to card readers, drives, and cards, only using lexar, sandisk and RED SSDs.  

I've tried three transcends and had all three go glitchy and if we have a card that doesn't test well we either return it, or throw it in the rubbish bin.

Early on in digital I would get calls from guys that just bought a leaf, a phase, a canon or something screaming they can't download, or tether, but they were using older machines, not enough power, cheap drives, computers loaded with their "social" and web software and having some semi learned assistant doing the dumping and copying.

In other words they had already invented the perfect storm.

Now is the RII a pro camera.  Yes, in the right hands.  My friend Brian Smith http://briansmith.com/photography/ uses it and doesn't see any major issues and he makes his living with a camera in his hand, he's very successful, and probably knows more about Sony still cameras than any working photographer in the western hemisphere.  You don't shoot imagery that debuts in the Library Of Congress, with sub par cameras.

Look I'm not selling Sony cameras,  heck, I'm not selling anything, but most equipment is only as good as the people using it and the levels they go to, to protect their imagery is much more than having a camera with dual slots.

IMO

BC



That's all good info and encouraging, and yes there's a lot more to protecting your imagery than having dual slots... but it's surely a good start.

I've never had a card fail either, except in the early days of the Sony Micro Drives.. (remember those!)

But my house has never burnt down either but I still pay the insurance premium every year.
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Manoli

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2015, 02:44:40 pm »

But my house has never burnt down either but I still pay the insurance premium every year.

The insurance premium won't prevent your house burning down ...
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Jack Hogan

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2015, 03:26:04 pm »

For the RED Dragon, filtering does help with a color issue:

Hey Edmund,

I always thought that the RED in RED Dragon was a nickname chosen for its over the top red CFA response, unrealistic as it is compared to the human visual system's response to it.  However, the RED Dragon has virtually nothing to do with Sony's CFA choices.

I appreciate your subjective, color-consulting, ICC-belonging opinion but until someone produces an absolute QE, spectral power distribution or similar measurement for the a7RII showing it to be much different from current Nikon and Canon DSLRs', it remains just that. Can you produce such comparisons? 

Until then,
Jack
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gustav

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2015, 05:09:36 pm »

i never had problems with the card-slot of any sony camera`s ,
i have the A7rII now for two weeks , and shoot maybe a thousand picture`s , the battery is indeed very small ,but it has also a positve side , a extra bettery weight less .
 i shoot with two battery`s around the 700,800 picture`s
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eronald

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2015, 05:30:41 pm »

Hey Edmund,

I always thought that the RED in RED Dragon was a nickname chosen for its over the top red CFA response, unrealistic as it is compared to the human visual system's response to it.  However, the RED Dragon has virtually nothing to do with Sony's CFA choices.

I appreciate your subjective, color-consulting, ICC-belonging opinion but until someone produces an absolute QE, spectral power distribution or similar measurement for the a7RII showing it to be much different from current Nikon and Canon DSLRs', it remains just that. Can you produce such comparisons?  

Until then,
Jack

Jack,

 You are doubtless right that I am an old idiot with the IQ of a carrot. In fact, every day, I get up, look down, see only belly, and think "I'm a fat old idiot with the IQ of a carrot, what happened, only yesterday I was a young and thin idiot". I am ever so thankful to you for independently confirming my observation.

 Now, I am however a bit of a smartass. And so I'll turn the question round: Why should such a revolutionary product, with such a fast sensor, be similar to those that came before?  Can *you*  produce the graphs? :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 05:35:04 pm by eronald »
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chez

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2015, 05:48:55 pm »

Thanks for the review Michael, I've been waiting for it.

So, it looks like an amazing camera from the spec sheets and certainly everyone who's review it seems pretty impressed.
The recent lenses to be released from Sony and Zeiss are also reading up pretty well - particularly the 90 macro.
In short, Sony is a very tempting proposition now.
But I can't get past the single SD card slot having had dual CF/SD card slots in my cameras for many many years now.
Though I've only had a few card problems since the start of digital, those problems have all been with SD's
Does this worry anyone else ?
Personally, I can't imagine shooting something important without that back-up, though maybe I'm overly cautious or even paranoid.. lol





Up until about 5 years ago, everything was shot without a backup including film. We survived.
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chez

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2015, 05:53:33 pm »

The single card slot is the number one reason many professionals (that I work with...)will not seriously consider the Sony A7 range.
It was an obvious and easy addition for Sony to add to the A7RII, the fact they didn't  says a lot about who they aim the range at.

The battery life is the second biggest issue for me.
The lack of repair services is the final hurdle, it's not a cheap camera by any measure, who's going to fix it when it breaks?

I sent in my A7R to the address listed for warrant and service work and it was back in about 1 week fixed. How hard is that?
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chez

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2015, 05:58:29 pm »

The insurance premium won't prevent your house burning down ...

Well said.
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aaron

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2015, 06:29:16 am »

Well said.

I'll assume you two geniuses know what an analogy is  :)

Just in case your serious though... I pay home insurance while not expecting my house to burn down, but if it does I'm covered financially. (yes, you do need to rebuild the house  ::))
I use cameras with two card slots for the same reason, the possibility of a card failure, not neccessarily the expectation.
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PeterAit

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2015, 08:35:04 am »


I use cameras with two card slots for the same reason, the possibility of a card failure, not neccessarily the expectation.

Belt and suspenders, eh?
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pegelli

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2015, 08:44:00 am »

Two slots alone won't always help, it's also important how they can be used.

My old Sony A850 and A700 both have dual card slots, but you can only use one or the other.
You can't save raws to one and jpegs to the other (or raw and a raw copy)

So to have some kind of insurance you need dual slots and the right firmware to use one as a back-up for the other.


On the flipside my old film cameras only held one film at a time and as mentioned before many MFDB's also only have one slot, so I don't consider this issue a necessity. It's convenient and I wouldn't mind having it, but it's not going to determine the choice of camera I use or take with me.
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Jack Hogan

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2015, 12:08:36 pm »

Now, I am however a bit of a smartass. And so I'll turn the question round: Why should such a revolutionary product, with such a fast sensor, be similar to those that came before?  Can *you*  produce the graphs?

I asked first, therefore I get to ask the first follow-on question :)  What are your thoughts on the color of their other recent products (A7x and/or A9x)?
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eronald

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2015, 02:05:39 pm »

I asked first, therefore I get to ask the first follow-on question :)  What are your thoughts on the color of their other recent products (A7x and/or A9x)?

My thought is that the old A9xx was supposed to be slower than the D3x and have better color. :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 02:31:25 pm by eronald »
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David Watson

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Re: A7rII review - single card.
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2015, 04:13:02 pm »

Hi

These things are just tools and as such tools need to be functional, reliable and produce better results than other tools.  The A7RM2 does mostly do that.  Cost is an issue, reliability is an issue, backup is an issue but dual card slots ????
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