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Author Topic: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One  (Read 152429 times)

KMRennie

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Nikon D810 Nikon 70-200 f4
Whilst trying to understand my camera settings better in order to ETTR more accurately I have found out the following rather odd thing. Shooting in L RAW 14bit lossless compressed  ARGB. I shot 9 bracketed files (1/3 stop between them)I loaded the same file into Capture One 8.3 ACR 9.1.1 (CS6 not CC) and RAW digger.
Using the same file RAW Digger shows very mild clipping 0.4% only in the G channel. Capture One shows lots of clipping in the Green and Blue Channel and a little in the Red Channel. By applying 7 in highlight recovery I can get the clipping looking like the RAW digger version. In ACR The same file shows no clipping as does the file exposed 1/3 stop more and the 2/3 stop more shows slightly less clipping than RAW digger. I have previously gone through the RAW digger videos and set the per channel clipping points correctly (I think). I have also removed all sharpening and noise reduction from both ACR and C1 and set the colour balance to "As Shot" and removed all lens corrections. I expected that a small difference may be visible given the 3 different RAW conversions but 2/3 stop seems excessive.

Before I get my Fuji XE-1 and Olympus E-410 out to see if this is a Nikon D810 anomaly has anyone else come across this problem and if so is their a cure?

Ken
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bjanes

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 01:39:15 pm »

Nikon D810 Nikon 70-200 f4
Whilst trying to understand my camera settings better in order to ETTR more accurately I have found out the following rather odd thing. Shooting in L RAW 14bit lossless compressed  ARGB. I shot 9 bracketed files (1/3 stop between them)I loaded the same file into Capture One 8.3 ACR 9.1.1 (CS6 not CC) and RAW digger.
Using the same file RAW Digger shows very mild clipping 0.4% only in the G channel. Capture One shows lots of clipping in the Green and Blue Channel and a little in the Red Channel. By applying 7 in highlight recovery I can get the clipping looking like the RAW digger version. In ACR The same file shows no clipping as does the file exposed 1/3 stop more and the 2/3 stop more shows slightly less clipping than RAW digger.

The more recent versions of ACR/LR using PV2012 (process version 2012) are poor choices for evaluating ETTR since they apply highlight correction automatically. I would recommend using PV2010 with a linear tone curve (sliders on main tab all set to zero and tone curve set to linear). The Adobe software also uses a baseline exposure offset. For the D800e, it is +0.35 EV, so you have to use -0.35 exposure in ACR to cancel out the offset. You can determine the offset for your D810 by converting to DNG and looking at the EXIF in RawDigger.

I don't use C1, so can't comment on its use.

Bill
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AlterEgo

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 02:11:09 pm »

Nikon D810 Nikon 70-200 f4
Whilst trying to understand my camera settings better in order to ETTR more accurately

there are convenient and user friendly tools to be used to decide on how close you are getting to clipping in raw channels - you can use both in trial mode if it is a one time exercise for you

1) http://www.rawdigger.com

or

2) http://www.fastrawviewer.com

but certainly you then need to see how a specific raw converter of /your/ choice is handling the raws during the conversion (when you pull ETTR'd data back in whatever manner you want to)
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KMRennie

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 02:39:16 pm »

Thank you both for your replies

Bill you have given me the answer to why ACR and capture One display highlight warnings differently and at first look a D810 is also 0.35EV "out". So using PV2010 and linear response with a 0.35EV offset ACR and C1 look the same. I am left only with why apply automatic highlight correction in a professional image editor but I suppose you can't really answer that? RAW digger still tells me that some images are not blown when the other 2 tell me that they are but RAW digger is telling me that they are very close to the top so I am probably being oversensitive to the difference between 15783 and 15780 which for all practical purposes are the same. AlterEgo  I will look at fastrawviewer to see if it makes choosing the optimum exposure faster, using RAW digger is a little slow.
This still leaves me with bracketing exposures and I was hoping that the D810 would make that unnecessary although if I am willing to just play safe the files are still so much better than my Fuji XE-1 in terms of noise and DR, not to mention resolution.

Ken
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AlterEgo

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 03:20:49 pm »

AlterEgo  I will look at fastrawviewer to see if it makes choosing the optimum exposure faster, using RAW digger is a little slow.
that is exactly what the authors (same as for RawDigger) were claiming it (FRV) was designed for, for speed... fast grading of raw files with passing some parameters (exposur corrections, ratings, etc) further to a raw converters like LR and precision wise it is good enough (but by all means if you do a precision tuning or research do use rawdigger)... plus FRV has a nice visual indication when you simulate what 'd happen if you give some more exposure, by some x.xx EV... a nice feature.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 04:06:42 pm »

that is exactly what the authors (same as for RawDigger) were claiming it (FRV) was designed for, for speed... fast grading of raw files with passing some parameters (exposur corrections, ratings, etc) further to a raw converters like LR and precision wise it is good enough (but by all means if you do a precision tuning or research do use rawdigger)... plus FRV has a nice visual indication when you simulate what 'd happen if you give some more exposure, by some x.xx EV... a nice feature.

And, if the Fast Raw Viewer preferences are set up for it, ETTR is easy to check automatically. Just set the  Image Display>AutoExposure to ETTR-style Autoexposure to 0.0% clipped pixels, and an auto exposure will display the EV offset amount required to achieve that. As little as possible +EV will be the best exposure from a bracketed series, 0 EV might mean that it's already clipped.

What the Raw processor does with that is indeed a whole other matter ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 10:56:22 pm »


I am left only with why apply automatic highlight correction in a professional image editor but I suppose you can't really answer that?
Ken


The designers have placed this compression override in the White slider. See this example I had to employ as a demonstration...

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102284.msg839248#msg839248
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 12:11:56 am »

Hi,

I would add that the default tone curve in C1 makes the image to bright, so images look overexposed in C1 and it also affects histogram. Neither program really shows a raw histogram.

The best way to evaluate raw files for exposure is RawDigger in my humble opinion: http://www.rawdigger.com

Best regards
Erik

Thank you both for your replies

Bill you have given me the answer to why ACR and capture One display highlight warnings differently and at first look a D810 is also 0.35EV "out". So using PV2010 and linear response with a 0.35EV offset ACR and C1 look the same. I am left only with why apply automatic highlight correction in a professional image editor but I suppose you can't really answer that? RAW digger still tells me that some images are not blown when the other 2 tell me that they are but RAW digger is telling me that they are very close to the top so I am probably being oversensitive to the difference between 15783 and 15780 which for all practical purposes are the same. AlterEgo  I will look at fastrawviewer to see if it makes choosing the optimum exposure faster, using RAW digger is a little slow.
This still leaves me with bracketing exposures and I was hoping that the D810 would make that unnecessary although if I am willing to just play safe the files are still so much better than my Fuji XE-1 in terms of noise and DR, not to mention resolution.

Ken

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Schewe

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 04:23:08 am »

I expected that a small difference may be visible given the 3 different RAW conversions but 2/3 stop seems excessive.

You're expectation is unrealistic...the manner in which the raw processors does it's processing is not at all consistant...sorry but you are trying to compare apples to oranges and finding strawberries. What did you expect?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 07:45:26 am »

You're expectation is unrealistic...the manner in which the raw processors does it's processing is not at all consistant...sorry but you are trying to compare apples to oranges and finding strawberries. What did you expect?

Hi Jeff,

Although the underlying Raw processing is different, is it really that unrealistic to expect a base-line that is somewhat resembling the actual image (camera thumbnail with minimum adjustments) as it was shot? I'd say no. It's similar to the different WhiteBalance color temperature and tint values one gets between the various Raw conversion engines. Although their numerical CCTs differ, the look will be close to identical, e.g. for Daylight.

That being said, Adobe made a deliberate choice (one can call it a 'look') for a different kind of baseline, and that's something people should come to realize. What one does with that baseline is up to the user of the software. Capture One also offers (two or more) different base styles, with a 'filmcurve' response (brighter and with compressed highlight roll-off) and a 'Linear' response.

The kind of control that one then gets for modifying e.g. the base tonality, I'd agree, is significantly different between some of the Raw converters/editors (even if the controls have similar names). One should really learn to use a program well, and it's better to not try and mimic the look of another program but use the strengths of the chosen program.

Cheers,
Bart
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eliedinur

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 08:23:32 am »

As a matter of fact, comparing the histogram in Raw Digger or Fast Raw Viewer with any histogram in LR, ACR or C1 is more like comparing an apple with an elaborate artificial machine-made fruit that has the essence of the original apple embedded deep within it.

RD and FRV display a Raw histogram - a graphic representation of what that file contains now. Histograms in the converters are predictive of what the image may be like after demosaicing + application of a camera profile + conversion to a working space + application of a tone curve + white balancing + a couple dozen other adjustments/changes/curves and round-abouts. They are no closer to a Raw histogram than the one displayed on the back of your camera; maybe further.
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KMRennie

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 10:12:22 am »

Again thanks everyone for the replies. This is different from DPReview  in that the discussions here generate light and not heat.
I am not trying to make ACR look like Capture One, I was using Capture One because it allowed tethered shooting and thus sped up the process. I was just trying to get to a point where I could look at a scene, look at the live histogram or histogram/ blinkies after a shot and see what exposure compensation needs to be applied to get the richest file possible ie as far to the right as possible without clipping. I thought, obviously erroneously,  that the white points would be the same or very similar irrespective of the RAW converter and setting everything at 0 would at least tell me when a file is clipped and therefore lead me to the best exposure. Now knowing that this is not the case I can stop playing with the raw converters because in the end I am trying to make good images not worry about the differences between programmes and how they treat RAW files. At the present time I seem to be able to get within 1/3rd of a stop for most exposures, this is of course with RAW Digger telling me that I have done it, but whether in a non repeatable situation I am so sure of my exposure compensation that one shot will do or I may well go back to safe underexposure or bracketing. Plus ca change.
Ken
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AlterEgo

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 10:18:37 am »

Again thanks everyone for the replies. This is different from DPReview  in that the discussions here generate light and not heat.
not true - you just need to ask the question in the proper forum ... may I recommend "Photographic Science and Technology" section of DPReview forums ? the S/N ratio there is quite good.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2015, 10:26:43 am »

I am not trying to make ACR look like Capture One, I was using Capture One because it allowed tethered shooting and thus sped up the process. I was just trying to get to a point where I could look at a scene, look at the live histogram or histogram/ blinkies after a shot and see what exposure compensation needs to be applied to get the richest file possible ie as far to the right as possible without clipping.
I, for example, solve the issue (when I do not want or can not bracket) by properly tuning OOC JPG parameters so that blinkies (Olympus)/zebra (Sony) and OOC JPG histogram are very close to what is in the raw data... that includes using UniWB, the proper OOC JPG color space, flattest possible curve and other picture (OOC JPG) styles... and checking during that process how I am faring with OOC JPG vs what rawdigger shows... after that is tuned once I am always able to have in tungsten or daylight  EVF (or LCD) indicating the true clipping (both in frame = blinkies or zebra or post shot RGB histogram) with no worse than 1/3 EV precision... the price I pay = the green tint because if UniWB, but I do not mind.
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KMRennie

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2015, 11:14:17 am »

Thank you AlterEgo for pointing out that my negative experience with many of the threads in DPReview need not be the case with all sections.
I have been experimenting with altering jpeg styles, saturation, sharpness, contrast and white balance including producing a UniWB ( not quite perfect yet ) in an attempt to produce a pseudo RAW histogram. I stopped when instead of using ACR to check for clipping I shot  tethered using Capture One and suddenly found out that what had appeared unclipped was now approx 2/3 of a stop into clipping. I now have the information needed to continue with adjusting things but at the present time altering picture styles makes very little difference to the point at which highlight warnings are produced but I will be in a better position to explore this further when I have a just overexposed and just not overexplored file checked using RAW digger.
Ken
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Schewe

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2015, 03:26:42 pm »

Although the underlying Raw processing is different, is it really that unrealistic to expect a base-line that is somewhat resembling the actual image (camera thumbnail with minimum adjustments) as it was shot? I'd say no.


Thomas goes for "normalized" in ACR while C1 goes for "optimized". That is two completely different approaches resulting in two different baselines. Both ACR and C1 are different than the camera company's software because the camera companies want to have "looks" using their SDKs...so now there are 3 baselines. Through in a variety of other 3rd party raw processors and there is no such thing as a "baseline"...so yes, I think it's an unrealistic expectation.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Highlight warning showing markedly different in ACR and Capture One
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2015, 03:52:57 pm »

For editing AND viewing of real image data especially for retaining highlight detail I find holding down the option key (Mac) is more helpful than examining a histogram and its clipping indicator.

When I let up on the option key after seeing mult-colored spots in a black field indicating clipping I don't see much difference in highlight detail in the preview. However, if I pull back exposure or highlight slider so I get an all black field with the option key pressed I've only created a dimmer looking image with same appearance of highlight detail.

This means it's not about losing/clipping detail but more about not seeing it in the preview due to software design factors (compression?) that flatten the look of highlight detail where clipping may occur in another part of the image (spectrals) that have nothing to do with the detail focused on in another part of the image.

Get the image to look good and worry about clipping afterward. There is an adjustment brush to handle minor clipping in local areas. Far faster and easier to deal with than applying scientific analysis of Raw data to get you to make the image look good, the real unrealistic expectation.
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