A7RII initial thoughts and images

[Torbjörn Tapani]

Diglloyd has an example of posterization in a shot of a lake in daylight. This is possibly a huge problem for Sony. I'm just assuming it has to do with raw compression. I hope they can solve it with firmware.

[Hans Kruse]

If you take away shutter issues, and compression, on paper the A7R2, the A7R and D800 and D810 seem quite similar when put on a tripod.

So what more does the Canon bring to the table?

Edmund

The D800E and D810 are similar in IQ, although the D810 has ISO 64. The D810 has the very important EFCS which for my 70-200 is very important. Unfortunately EFCS is only available in MLU mode, but it does also work in live view with MLU. For shorter focal lengths than about 70mm the difference is marginal. My shooting technique includes bracketing and the D800 locks the camera until all pictures are written to the card(s). This is solved with the D810. The D810 in general is a much improved camera compared to the D800 in my opinion.

The Canon has excellent zoomlenses from 11mm to 400mm for a landscape shooter like me. In addition there are all the choices desired for prime lenses. The Canon has EFCS in live mode without any special setting. The resolution is quite a step up from the D810 and pixel level sharpness looks even slightly better. The 5DsR does not have the banding which means a larger usable DR than the 5D III. I shot the Canon and Nikon the same way with bracketing which means I always have an optimal exposure so there downside the lesser DR on the Canon is minimized.

The reason I shoot both systems is to know both camera systems for my workshop participants. I like to be able to show immediately which setting in the camera menus is needed on a participant camera. If I did not run workshops I would not shoot two systems. In todays situation I would likely choose the Canon but before the 5DsR I would have chosen the D810. I was never happy with the D800E which felt clunky.

Basically I don't think it really matters that much which camera system is chosen for landscape shooting between Canon and Nikon. For the Sony A7R II I think the jury is still out. I'm not a big fan of adapters, so I would not be very keen on choosing the A7R II until Sony has a line of very good zoomlenses. At this point in time there is no competition on that front in my view. On paper and from early experience reviews the A7R II looks like a big step up from the A7R. Personally I did not like that Sony never tried to fix the issues with the A7R with firmware updates. Also the reluctance to provide the options for RAW formats that users have been asking for some time now. Until Sony changes attitude I'm not likely to become a customer despite impressive engineering.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I have sen it, but I am highly doubtful it is a compression artefact. You really need to see the raw find to find out. I have something like 70000 images shot on Sonys which use the same kind of tonal compression and I have not seen anything like it. Would be good if Diglloyd shared that raw file, because it really looks bad.

But, the Sony raw compression has been trough a lot of analysis and I don't think it can cause artefacts like the one published by Lloyd.

On the other hand, if we like a system we may go into fact denial mode when something negative is found. Like shooting the messanger. 

Best reagrds
Erik

Diglloyd has an example of posterization in a shot of a lake in daylight. This is possibly a huge problem for Sony. I'm just assuming it has to do with raw compression. I hope they can solve it with firmware.

[Hans Kruse]

Hi,

I have sen it, but I am highly doubtful it is a compression artefact. You really need to see the raw find to find out. I have something like 70000 images shot on Sonys which use the same kind of tonal compression and I have not seen anything like it. Would be good if Diglloyd shared that raw file, because it really looks bad.

But, the Sony raw compression has been trough a lot of analysis and I don't think it can cause artefacts like the one published by Lloyd.

On the other hand, if we like a system we may go into fact denial mode when something negative is found. Like shooting the messanger. 

Best reagrds
Erik

Erik,

Why not ask Lloyd for the RAW file and check it yourself? It seems like a serious enough issue to get fully analyzed.

[Jack Hogan]

Hi,

I have sen it, but I am highly doubtful it is a compression artefact. You really need to see the raw find to find out. I have something like 70000 images shot on Sonys which use the same kind of tonal compression and I have not seen anything like it. Would be good if Diglloyd shared that raw file, because it really looks bad.

I agree it doesn't look like a compression artifact.  It looks like someone has painted roughly over part of the image: If this is directly from a raw file it could be a memory card or firmware failure.

[NancyP]

Re: lens drop. Ouch, if real. One could make a fun video with one of those lens coffee cups.     IIRC, the standard lens cup is the 24-105L. I don't remember what the Nikon standard lens cup imitates.

Old gear: My old 35mm film SLR and some of its lenses will never again be used for shooting film, but I keep them around for sentiment. It just cheers me to pick it up once in a while.

As for large format, Ilford has re-released its direct positive paper, after a year or so absence.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

There is something to it...

I would say the observations need to be investigated and a reasonable explanation found. Applies to Sony raw files and Leica focusing.

Best regards
Erik

Diglloyd seems to be highly excitable.

I can't help feeling that he and his punters would be better served if he took a deep breath and investigated possible cause before publication.

[Chris Livsey]

That is a most peculiar result. The figure looks fine and she is partly in the blue area which is "mush". This could keep the geek going for a while.

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/images/2015-0819-_DSC0757-f4.jpg@auto.html?dglySz=1728x1152&dglyD=-C-wN6iPV21-FLW5eWJN_iMulOxWTGcmCqhKAFUBRmipJFn-YO0ChoKIxK5LB-ZLWRN3mlupW2rkvtbKBBiAJVtxWhoNAlBF59YcTsLhugneiS5i87P-YCRJ89oLuOXRqx7ts17tp-ashOB88kCN8p1yOFElSVa3J3UXr_Nk-N7v

[Manoli]

Diglloyd seems to be highly excitable.
I can't help feeling that he and his punters would be better served if he took a deep breath and investigated possible cause before publication.

Now, that's an excellent suggestion!

But I'm also curious how and why his punters are allegedly so quick to respond ...
Quotes from his blog:

• This is the kind of stuff that happens when a company rushes cameras and lenses to market without proper professional R&D.

• The R&D boys at Nikon must have this stuff posted on a wall as jokes

• Disgusting. Criminal. Unforgivable.

• Holy cow .. I am awed and shocked about your findings about the A7R II. Thanks God I managed to cancel my orders for a hole new system costing a pile of money.

• I feel we are seeing the beginning of an abyss fall of respect for the marketing driven play toy company Sony. Even worse it is looking for the prostituted bloggers that hurrahs and welcome this 8th wonder in the world.
  

--

'Prostituted bloggers'... boys are you paying attention ?
Time to call time on sensationalism.

[eronald]

'Prostituted bloggers'... boys are you paying attention ?
Time to call time on sensationalism.

Maybe Sony *is* handing out free candy RX100s to A7RII reviewers

I'd be very careful here, for all we know Lloyd may be forthright, and  this camera may have one or two bugs left. I've already seen bugs in software from very reputable companies, even Microsoft.  But I would agree that the tone is disturbing.

Edmund

[MatthewCromer]

I agree it doesn't look like a compression artifact.  It looks like someone has painted roughly over part of the image: If this is directly from a raw file it could be a memory card or firmware failure.

I've seen a tiny handful of images like that out of 500,000 taken with Sony cameras over 15 years.

Always chalked it up to a camera glitch, hoped it wouldn't come back next time I went out shooting, and it hasn't so far, other than one every few years.

[Manoli]

I'd be very careful here, for all we know Lloyd may be forthright,

Edmund,

With all due respect for your more than excellent command of the English language, I'm not convinced that 'forthright' is the most appropriate adjective in connection with lloyd and his musings.

I've already seen bugs in software from very reputable companies, even Microsoft.

  - but I'm sure you wrote that with a straight face ..

... and  this camera may have one or two bugs left.

Indeed it may, but 'the bug' needs to be a repeatable and identifiable defect. It could equally be due to other potential causes (such as SD card failure and sensor heating, to name but two) and these need to be excluded before engaging in self-serving and unnecessarily melodramatic fear-mongering.

And yes, I am questioning the authenticity of all these so called subscribers who, apparently, at the first hint of trouble, take the metaphorical pen to paper in a smorgasbord expression of gratitude at having been saved from a life of hell and damnation.

Anyway, at least one suggestion Sony should take to heart - 'don't rush cameras and lenses to market without proper professional R&D' - you've been warned!

Manoli

[eronald]

Edmund,

With all due respect for your more than excellent command of the English language, I'm not convinced that 'forthright' is the most appropriate adjective in connection with lloyd and his musings.

  - but I'm sure you wrote that with a straight face ..

Indeed it may, but 'the bug' needs to be a repeatable and identifiable defect. It could equally be due to other potential causes (such as SD card failure and sensor heating, to name but two) and these need to be excluded before engaging in self-serving and unnecessarily melodramatic fear-mongering.

And yes, I am questioning the authenticity of all these so called subscribers who, apparently, at the first hint of trouble, take the metaphorical pen to paper in a smorgasbord expression of gratitude at having been saved from a life of hell and damnation.

Anyway, at least one suggestion Sony should take to heart - 'don't rush cameras and lenses to market without proper professional R&D' - you've been warned!

Manoli

Manoli,

 Let's take Lloyd and friends at face value. Maybe they are just obsessive.

 It may be instructive to look at the Sony PRO video cameras, these typically go through firmware after firmware as the bugs slowly get cooked out. Features get added slowly as Sony gets them to work, or when customers yell loud enough. The FS7 is a case in point. It's not that they're bad - but rather that the hardware is put on sale while the firmware is still half baked. Of course, these days thanks to Xilinx and Altera and friends, everything is just firmware.

 Rushing to market is a "personal computer" attitude - people who make infrastructure such as power stations, telecom networks, trains or airplanes usually believe in software reliability over features - this is what one calls "being professional" in some snobbish engineering circles.

 I am sure the Sony A7RII is about as pretty and reliable as a computer with Windows.

 BTW, you bring up thermal dissipation in your post. That shows an interesting angle - does a camera with iffy thermals make sense?

Edmund

[MatthewCromer]

Turns out to be a color management issue in Lloyd's workflow:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56349315

[Manoli]

BTW, you bring up thermal dissipation in your post. That shows an interesting angle - does a camera with iffy thermals make sense?

Edmund,

I can't answer 'whether it makes sense' or not. Certainly it's a potential factor, and, from what I hear, not exclusive to the A7RII though, admittedly, AFAIK only noticed during prolonged use or long exposures. Jim Kasson has already started testing and reporting some of his findings on 'The Last Word'.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11476

Manoli

[Manoli]

Turns out to be a color management issue in Lloyd's workflow:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56349315

Thanks for the link - I'd trust Iliah Borg and his expertise far more than Chambers' fanaticism.
Looks as though he's just been 'hoisted by his own petard'.

[Dennishh]

I just deleted a link to his blog from my browser, have no more use for his money making schemes.

[eronald]

Edmund,

I can't answer 'whether it makes sense' or not. Certainly it's a potential factor, and, from what I hear, not exclusive to the A7RII though, admittedly, AFAIK only noticed during prolonged use or long exposures. Jim Kasson has already started testing and reporting some of his findings on 'The Last Word'.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11476

Manoli

The problem for the thermals is the stabiliser. And in the other direction the need for thermal dissipation means the stabiliser cannot be sealed easily.

Edmund

[Telecaster]

A7rii in da house (as of Tuesday evening). Whenever I pull the trigger on a new piece of gear I do my best to ignore web commentary on said piece. Way too much incendiary/clickbait-y rubbish.

Anyway, so far I like it. Much improved ergonomics. AF is still pokey compared to Olympus' speedy m43 implementation but improved over the A7r's. Shutter also much improved…quieter and with far less vibration. IBIS is nice, seems to work well. Resolution is kind of a non-issue. This camera can record more spatial info than I can cram into any print I'm capable of (or interested in) making. JPEGs, as with the A7r, are thin even at highest "quality." This is a RAW camera.

I've attached a photo, taken this evening with a Y/C mount Zeiss 200/3.5 lens. Processed on my iPad in PhotoRaw and tweaked a little in Photogene. No doubt the pixel peepers will be disappointed. 

-Dave-

[eronald]

I've attached a photo, taken this evening with a Y/C mount Zeiss 200/3.5 lens. Processed on my iPad in PhotoRaw and tweaked a little in Photogene. No doubt the pixel peepers will be disappointed. 

-Dave-

Congrats on your new gear. Let's see how many more get "precious".

Edmund