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Author Topic: A7RII initial thoughts and images  (Read 196084 times)

telyt

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #360 on: August 19, 2015, 01:58:46 pm »

Let's put it this way - I would love a lightweight full-frame camera but I don't have a Sony. I can't think of anyone I know (including my camera club) who own a Sony of any description. So the idea of "Sony has already captured the small/lightweight crowd..." is unjustified (probably unjustifiable) hyperbole.

Did you miss the part about "and who doesn't mind the loss of AF capability vs an SLR"?
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #361 on: August 19, 2015, 02:08:57 pm »

The local mall camera shop where I am on vacation sells no Sony SLRs, only lots of C and N.
My pro shop refuses to sell Sony.
There have been QC issues, I *know* and the pro shop tells me the service is bad so they refuse to sell them.

Edmund
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MatthewCromer

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #362 on: August 19, 2015, 02:53:15 pm »

If eye AF works as well as DPReview claims, I think the portrait / wedding market is going to move to Sony in droves.

Any "pro" shop that doesn't carry Sony is not likely to stay in business over the next few years.

We have two "pro" shops here, one of which carries Sony kit and the other doesn't. You can be sure which one I no longer patronize.
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chez

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #363 on: August 19, 2015, 03:21:02 pm »

For full professional use outside of restricted, non-action areas, Sony will need a camera with a larger body and more capacity for fast AF, lag-free EVF and driving long, heavy lenses at high speed. When Sony releases such a body (e.g. the rumoured A9) the 'light and small' aspect that has dominated mirrorless bodies to date will be gone. The camera system would then need to compete on performance alone, and that means having full-capability, fast lenses that can compete with the best EF and F-mount lenses available.

Right now, the A7-series cameras are competitive against rangefinder cameras, but that really just means Leica. Small, slow but sharp lenses have a role here. The only reason Sony is even competitive against Canon at all is due to the performance of the Canon sensor, which has caused certain groups of photographers, who need IQ but not AF or speed (i.e. mostly landscape and non-action photographers) to flock to Sony - and many of these use third-party fast lenses rather than the slower native lenses. If Sony really wants to take the fight to Canon, they will need to match them not only in terms of body performance (which I believe they're trying to do, with 3rd-party AF progressing in leaps and bounds since the last iteration) but also in terms of lens selection, whether this is by releasing faster and more capable E-mount lenses, by having Sigma and Zeiss release more top-of-the-line lenses (e.g. Art series and Otus) in E-mount or by making their own AF work just as well with Canon/Nikon lenses as Canon/Nikon bodies do.

The bottom line is, small and light can win the consumer/backpacker crowds, but you won't win over professionals until you can deliver the capability in the areas that matter to them. They've managed this with sensor performance (hence winning over lots of landscapers and non-action shooters), but, if they want to move beyond that, they will need to deliver performance beyond just the sensor. And that means fast AF, lag-free viewfinders and fast lenses, and likely a body size similar to the D810/5Ds.

I wonder how big then market is for professional action photography. Surely the market for event and wedding photography must be much greater.
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #364 on: August 19, 2015, 03:46:54 pm »

Johannes,


 I seem to be doing most of my buying on the used market these days, snapping up cameras at 1/4 of their new price, and old macs at 1% of their new price. My main still camera is an 8 year old model, and the still lens I use most is an 85/1.2 which is twelve years old  :)

 Anything you can get that still works when it is 5 or more years old will probably last another 5 at least.

Edmund



Hi Edmund,

you have a live: holidays, pro shops and posting on lula. I'm jealous.

I already bought a lot of things which have had quality issues and never should have been sold, cars, kitchen appliances, smart phones, laptops... In terms of cameras I have to say only my Canon 1Ds MarkII and my 24-70/L2.8 had to go to CPS a few times. And do you remember the massive sample variation of Canon lenses a few years ago? With Sinar, Nikon and Hasselblad I never had a problem.

In the meantime I'm really convinced by route Sony took with the Sony A7r. I will upgrade, when the first rush is over. I now have also a different look at digital cameras. In the beginning I thought a digital camera is a long term investment, like Hasselblad V or a Sinar p2. Today I think it is a short term investment, even the lenses. I buy some months after the camera started shipping and I sell the camera it replaces at once.

Best,
Johannes
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:01:48 pm by eronald »
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adrian tyler

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #365 on: August 19, 2015, 04:00:22 pm »

In the meantime I'm really convinced by route Sony took with the Sony A7r. I will upgrade, when the first rush is over. I now have also a different look at digital cameras. In the beginning I thought a digital camera is a long term investment, like Hasselblad V or a Sinar p2. Today I think it is a short term investment, even the lenses. I buy some months after the camera started shipping and I sell the camera it replaces at once.

exactly, i got the nikon d3 & the PCE lenses when they came out, traded the d3 for the d800e and a few years later tried out the sony rx1 and was blown away, got the a7ii & 55mm lens as a swap & loved it, and just traded the nikon stuff for the a7rii & canon 17mm tse, i consider results i am getting from this to be a serious "upgrade."

just to mention i bought a beautiful sony ICF shortwave radio 30 years ago and it's been hammered, round the world twice, my daughter now has it & still works perfectly, and then there was the sony d3 professional walkman which was my mainstay for audio for years, it never failed and it was really abused...

i don't buy the sony = unreliable propaganda & i don't by the c/n = "pro" bull either... sorry.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:04:01 pm by adrian tyler »
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #366 on: August 19, 2015, 04:00:54 pm »

Hi Rainer,

you are so right with what you are writing.

Here is a video for all the "pro" Canon users which shows how to change a lens, if you are in a hurry start at 60 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ineSsjwIAqI

Best,
Johannes


I watched the salesdroid at the mall do this. Won't be buying any discounted "openbox" lenses. :)

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #367 on: August 19, 2015, 04:12:13 pm »


i don't buy the sony = unreliable propaganda & i don't by the c/n = "pro" bull either... sorry.

I've had good and bad experiences with Sony. The question is how they will back up this product range with service or exchange.

Apple products are not "pro", but if you have a tech issue with a phone, you make an appointment, and 30 minutes later you have a new phone. I ditched my iPhone, but have to admit that their after-sales service is perfect.

Edmund
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Manoli

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #368 on: August 19, 2015, 04:28:51 pm »

... and then there was the sony d3 professional walkman which was my mainstay for audio for years, it never failed and it was really abused...

As we're on a trip down memory lane, anyone care to remember that the very first sony walkmans were in fact called 'stowaways' - yup I had one, hard as hell to come by, worked faultlessly (and I always preferred the original name) add the original small trinitron tv's, the ones that were housed in a wooden cabinet with a knob for a tuner

i don't buy the sony = unreliable propaganda & i don't by the c/n = "pro" bull either... sorry.

I'm with you on that one, Adrian - but generally prefer it when it has 'Made in Japan' on the label.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:55:42 pm by Manoli »
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adrian tyler

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #369 on: August 19, 2015, 04:37:01 pm »

I've had good and bad experiences with Sony. The question is how they will back up this product range with service or exchange.

Apple products are not "pro", but if you have a tech issue with a phone, you make an appointment, and 30 minutes later you have a new phone. I ditched my iPhone, but have to admit that their after-sales service is perfect.

Edmund


i seriously doubt that my rx1, a7ii & a7rii are gonna fail - at the same time - also i trust my pro shop, if i need a replacement for a while, or a canon body for my tse's he'll loan me one. it's a non-issue for me. the real issue, i repeat, is the innovation if the system (worthy of support i feel,) the quality of the output and the size and beauty of the cameras, as i said previously, it like a dream camera, leica m6 size, easily 6x9 drum scanned chrome quality output (and then some) freedom from a tripod in many situations and flexibility of shift lenses and then that beautiful zeiss stuff. i don't need fast af, or buy into the "malborough man," "tough pro" need "tough camera" bull, but i don't hammer nails all day long with it...
this system has brought me simplicity (one camera, many lenses) and and a good degree of freedom (size and weight) to my work, this is what it's about for me, freedom to produce - or try to produce - the images in my nut!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:38:43 pm by adrian tyler »
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rainer_v

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #370 on: August 19, 2015, 04:57:49 pm »

Hi Rainer,

you are so right with what you are writing.

Here is a video for all the "pro" Canon users which shows how to change a lens, if you are in a hurry start at 60 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ineSsjwIAqI

Best,
Johannes

 :D
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jrp

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #371 on: August 19, 2015, 05:08:23 pm »

The local mall camera shop where I am on vacation sells no Sony SLRs, only lots of C and N.
My pro shop refuses to sell Sony.
There have been QC issues, I *know* and the pro shop tells me the service is bad so they refuse to sell them.

Interesting that Calumet here in the UK, used to sell Sony, but now only does so to special order (i.e., it doesn't).  So either the t&c that Sony were offering were prohibitive, the Sony cameras did not sell, or some C/N conspiracy persuaded them to drop Sony.  Fixation has chosen Fuji, rather than Sony, as their other brand.
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jrp

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #372 on: August 19, 2015, 05:15:18 pm »

Apple products are not "pro", but if you have a tech issue with a phone, you make an appointment, and 30 minutes later you have a new phone. I ditched my iPhone, but have to admit that their after-sales service is perfect.

Yes, if you bought it within a certain period (2y, I think).  But they are v to keep you from exploring alternative options, which is what you would do if they left you high and dry.

Sony obviously can do pro service (as they own a good chunk of the pro video market) but there is not yet enough margin in the A7 world to fund a support network.
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #373 on: August 19, 2015, 05:18:04 pm »

i seriously doubt that my rx1, a7ii & a7rii are gonna fail - at the same time - also i trust my pro shop, if i need a replacement for a while, or a canon body for my tse's he'll loan me one. it's a non-issue for me. the real issue, i repeat, is the innovation if the system (worthy of support i feel,) the quality of the output and the size and beauty of the cameras, as i said previously, it like a dream camera, leica m6 size, easily 6x9 drum scanned chrome quality output (and then some) freedom from a tripod in many situations and flexibility of shift lenses and then that beautiful zeiss stuff. i don't need fast af, or buy into the "malborough man," "tough pro" need "tough camera" bull, but i don't hammer nails all day long with it...
this system has brought me simplicity (one camera, many lenses) and and a good degree of freedom (size and weight) to my work, this is what it's about for me, freedom to produce - or try to produce - the images in my nut!


Great. Let's hope Sony keeps this up, and we'll all become their customers! Why should I complain if somebody sells me a better camera? I'll be in the buy queue, either now, or when it gets resold by one of my fellow gear lovers.

 There are all sorts of photographers. A friend of mine had multiple sclerosis, moved about as fast as a tortoise, and told me "I don't take pictures of things that run away". He used a Contax G, the nearest thing at the time to an AF Leica, and sold large Cibachrome art prints.

 When I was younger I stood on a stepladder and would take several hundred runway shots in one session, and my typical subjects were always moving, but the max print size was only full page.  Now I have a 4 year old, and find that fast AF and bursts can be pretty useful for snapshots.

Edmund

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Hans Kruse

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #374 on: August 19, 2015, 05:49:18 pm »

I am pretty sure the canon wouldnt give any deeper problem  you are right...
its still the photographer and not the camera which makes the images.

All i saw is that the 5dsr has larger files than the5dmk3, but not better at base iso. And the 5dmk3 has nearly the same files than the mk2 in terms of quality, at base iso again.  And this was the last canon i was using and i never was very happy with its files, although of course usable, very often shooting different exp. and combining them.
After that came the nikon d800, i liked first time again the quality of slr files similar ( or sometimes more .. ) then my mf backs ,  but it was lacking lenses.
The a7r than gave me similar quality than the nikon and the nice canon shift lenses were available agin, and i could put it easily on my drone. it was the first time since long time that i really "liked" again a camera. Lets see if the a7rii will be similar good for me after a while of using it.

So far I definitely see a better quality from the 5DsR files than the 5D III files. I have shot mostly test shots so far and some nature shots. My real test will be 2 weeks in scotland shooting landscapes. I will shot it like the 5d III with optimal exposure and it will do fine I'm sure. I have the D810 as well and will do some comparisons.

eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #375 on: August 19, 2015, 05:55:03 pm »

So far I definitely see a better quality from the 5DsR files than the 5D III files. I have shot mostly test shots so far and some nature shots. My real test will be 2 weeks in scotland shooting landscapes. I will shot it like the 5d III with optimal exposure and it will do fine I'm sure. I have the D810 as well and will do some comparisons.

Hans, what will be interesting is to see what your workshop participants do with their various cameras.

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #376 on: August 19, 2015, 06:52:03 pm »

Edmund,

the oldest camera I'm using is a Linhof Technika II, 13x18, built 1938 and the oldest lens is a Schneider Angulon 165 mm (not the newer Super-Angulon), built 1958. As a sensor I use Ilford HP5+. Detail and tonality I can't beat with the digital cameras I used so far. But digital is much more convenient.

Best,
Johannes


I used HP(3?) for years, as a kid. Very convenient because you could develop it in a dish. Of course the real reason I used it was that I could get all those old cameras for free from people who had them in their attics :)

In 5 or so years one will be able to get perfectly good dSLRs in the trash ...the only problem will be batteries.

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 06:54:27 pm by eronald »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #377 on: August 19, 2015, 07:07:47 pm »

Hans, what will be interesting is to see what your workshop participants do with their various cameras.

Edmund

This time is just myself preparing for a workshop next year. The workshop participants on other of my workshops have mainly Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras. A few Sony and MF cameras as well. I do expect more A7R II's now that Sony has fixed the problematic A7R by a new camera. I'm still waiting to see real and final reviews of this camera.

eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #378 on: August 19, 2015, 10:04:41 pm »

This time is just myself preparing for a workshop next year. The workshop participants on other of my workshops have mainly Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras. A few Sony and MF cameras as well. I do expect more A7R II's now that Sony has fixed the problematic A7R by a new camera. I'm still waiting to see real and final reviews of this camera.

If you take away shutter issues, and compression, on paper the A7R2, the A7R and D800 and D810 seem quite similar when put on a tripod.

So what more does the Canon bring to the table?

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: A7RII initial thoughts and images
« Reply #379 on: August 20, 2015, 03:08:06 am »

The ifixit teardown is out.

nice images.

Edmund
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