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Author Topic: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?  (Read 30294 times)

drgonzo

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2015, 04:25:32 pm »

Which Piezography list are you referring to (re: the Rolands for sale in Northern California)? I couldn't find mention of anything on piezography3000 yahoo group.
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deanwork

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2015, 06:59:32 pm »

Large format Pro Piezotone Users Group on Yahoo Groups. Might have to join to see this.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/piezobwpro/conversations/messages
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aaronchan

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2015, 12:27:29 am »

Check item #2 here on that:  http://www.freestylephoto.biz/canon-printers-versus-epson-printers

Quote:  "2. Canon thermal head tends not to clog. Epson printer heads tends TO clog. Canon heads will self-clean if it does clog. Epson's heads do not. Canon's thermal technology (heat) tends to keep the nozzles cleaner than the piezo-electric."

Freestyle in Los Angeles, CA used to be a big time seller of Epson on the West Coast but has since moved to Canon which lessened the "Plugged head complaints" from their Epson customers.  They still sell Epson paper and inks, but they push Canon now.

SG


Yes and No
Thermal head doesn't clog as much as Piezo head in general.
But the durability is much less then piezo head
also the ink requirement is very high to achieve the longest usage of the head

Let's say if you fill Canon ink into Epson printer, it will run, but it might clog and won't let you have a very good result,
but if you fill Epson ink into Canon printer, it will print and the ink will burn out the head after some square meters of prints.

Also, I used to own Canon's printer, I had chnaged 2 sets of print head within 2 years.
I do print a lot back in the day for commercial work.
Yes, it is cheap and compare to Epson's head, it is nothing.
But I'm just talking about the durability but the price or anything else, pure technical aspect.

freestylephoto is a dealer, if they want to push a product, this is how they do.
I personally like Canon's printer much more than the Epson
But I'm just pointing out what i have seen and experienced.

aaron

Wayne Fox

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2015, 02:22:12 pm »

I’ve owned both Canon and Epson, I still prefer Epson for a few reasons, none of which are significant to anyone but me.

But despite many posts in the  past regarding the two technologies, there still remain misconceptions about them.

I do not believe Canon printers clog less than Epsons.  Canon’s will automatically try to clear clogs, as will Epson’s if you leave that feature enabled (which most users do not).  But where an Epson nozzle must be cleared, the Canon  can decide to map that nozzle out and use a “spare” nozzle to replace it rather than using ink to clear it. Thus the Canon head is a “consumable” part, and over time will need to be replaced.

How soon those heads will need replaced depends quite a bit on the environment and usage patterns .  A dry climate will consume the head much faster than one at 45% humidity, and a dirty/dusty environment will also shorten head life.  Over time the nozzles also wear and enlarge, which eventually will require a new head (although I believe with their newest printer the likelihood of replacement from wearing before using of spare nozzles will only happen with very heavy usage).


but to the end user, Canon effectively hides all of this, making the use of a Canon printer a nice experience. If you choose to let the Epson printer clean itself, it may be problematic and consume a lot of ink if you are an occasional users.  Using the Epson may require a little more hand holding, and often what are referred to as “clogs” is simply air seeping back into the nozzles because the printer is off.  Unfortunately for Epson, the initial 4900’s had a problem with the capping station which allowed this to happen rather quickly (and of course this can cause ink to dry out inside the nozzle).  I’ve heard that Epson improved this but have no proof.

Personally, my TCO of my Epson 9900 has been less than my ipf6100 which required new heads after 18 months.  The Epson is now 4 years old, and still has the original maintenance tanks, which indicates I haven’t had to do that much cleaning/clog clearing.  I keep the printer in a 45% humidity controlled room, but it can go several weeks without being used. I’ve never done a power clean, my wiper is still pristine, and often after sitting I have no missing nozzles.  

As far as the Breathing Color claim a “3 year” life I’m not sure where they got there stats, but I have sold dozens of 78/9890 and 79/9900 printers over the past several years, and I’m not getting a ton of calls on older printers that suddenly die after 3 years.



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Some Guy

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2015, 06:02:12 pm »

Nah, Epson hasn't gotten totally out of the printer business.  They're too busy concentrating on making burger making machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-JR2KDRnEY

Wonder if the mustard and ketchup bottles overhead will cost $1/ml for each condiment like ink?  :D

SG
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2015, 08:50:54 pm »

Actually, off that same page I thought this link a bit of fun:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers

:-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Czornyj

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2015, 09:29:40 am »

I do not believe Canon printers clog less than Epsons.

You're wrong - Canon/HP thermal head produces more pressure than piezo membrane, and has shorter ink channels where air bubbles can gather (which is the main reason of clogging). Since I switched to iPF I've never seen a clog - yes, it maintains and cleans the nozzles, and has spare nozzles that can be remapped, but all in all it's much less prone to clogging than piezo head.

Personally I don't think it ever runs out of spare nozzles, it eventually just dies after approx. >2 years (in my case 800-900 days per print head).

Mark D Segal

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2015, 10:06:49 am »

You're wrong - Canon/HP thermal head produces more pressure than piezo membrane, and has shorter ink channels where air bubbles can gather (which is the main reason of clogging). Since I switched to iPF I've never seen a clog - yes, it maintains and cleans the nozzles, and has spare nozzles that can be remapped, but all in all it's much less prone to clogging than piezo head.

Personally I don't think it ever runs out of spare nozzles, it eventually just dies after approx. >2 years (in my case 800-900 days per print head).

Marcin, this is interesting - perhaps you could elaborate the explanation - what is the difference in the length of the ink channels between Epson and Canon printheads (for which models are you comparing), what is the mechanism by which air bubbles gather in each model, and exactly how does the difference of the length of the ink channels between these designs contribute to the formation of more air bubbles in the one compared with the other?

As well, I have heard that air bubbles can produce broken test patterns, much like obstructions, such as particulates would, but I have also heard that in all these printers the systems are sealed to prevent this from happening, except for improperly conducted cleaning cycles or improperly functioning cleaning stations. So it isn't clear to me yet whether obstructions or air bubbles are the more prevalent cause of clogging. Perhaps you could point us to conclusive evidence of air bubbles being the prevalent cause as you suggest (whether Canon or Epson).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2015, 12:01:26 pm »

this isn't true.

Sorry, what isn't true?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2015, 02:16:55 pm »

You're wrong - Canon/HP thermal head produces more pressure than piezo membrane, and has shorter ink channels where air bubbles can gather (which is the main reason of clogging). Since I switched to iPF I've never seen a clog - yes, it maintains and cleans the nozzles, and has spare nozzles that can be remapped, but all in all it's much less prone to clogging than piezo head.

Personally I don't think it ever runs out of spare nozzles, it eventually just dies after approx. >2 years (in my case 800-900 days per print head).

But really no way of knowing?  Seems to be some logic to your speculation, but the fact is the Canon hides all clogs so effectively it’s hard to say when nozzles have clogged.  It consumes ink in cleaning cycles, and consume’s nozzles to remap those that can’t be cleared.  I guess it doesn’t matter which clogs “less”, both clog and both have to deal with clogs.
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Czornyj

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2015, 11:28:42 am »

Marcin, this is interesting - perhaps you could elaborate the explanation - what is the difference in the length of the ink channels between Epson and Canon printheads (for which models are you comparing), what is the mechanism by which air bubbles gather in each model, and exactly how does the difference of the length of the ink channels between these designs contribute to the formation of more air bubbles in the one compared with the other?

As well, I have heard that air bubbles can produce broken test patterns, much like obstructions, such as particulates would, but I have also heard that in all these printers the systems are sealed to prevent this from happening, except for improperly conducted cleaning cycles or improperly functioning cleaning stations. So it isn't clear to me yet whether obstructions or air bubbles are the more prevalent cause of clogging. Perhaps you could point us to conclusive evidence of air bubbles being the prevalent cause as you suggest (whether Canon or Epson).

Mark, all I know is that piezo membrane (in Epson x900 series) produces less pressure and relatively long ink lines (you can see it on Eric Gulbransen's photos in Epson 7900 from the inside - out thread), where air bubbles cumulate, thermal head (Canon PF-05 in x300 - x400 series) has less potential space where air bubbles can gather, and even if they gather the thermal element produces more pressure, so it can get rid of them - according to that information this is the main reason why thermal head is less prone to clogging than piezo head.

Czornyj

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2015, 11:40:48 am »

But really no way of knowing?  Seems to be some logic to your speculation, but the fact is the Canon hides all clogs so effectively it’s hard to say when nozzles have clogged.  It consumes ink in cleaning cycles, and consume’s nozzles to remap those that can’t be cleared.  I guess it doesn’t matter which clogs “less”, both clog and both have to deal with clogs.

In case of Canon clogging just never happens, period. It maintains the print head, it checks and remaps broken nozzles, but I've (or any of my friends and clients) never seen a single clog during all these years of using iPF6350 and iPF8300, and it's impossible to hide it completely if it ever happened. There's no clogging when you start printing, and it doesn't appear while printing - to my eye it simply doesn't clog at all, and the spare nozzles are only to replace the ones that went out of order due to wear or electric failures. The fact is that after I switched to Canon I quit printing nozzle checks and controlling if there's a trace of clogging while printing, something that was absolutely necessary when I had used my former SP7880.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2015, 11:44:08 am »

Mark, all I know is that piezo membrane (in Epson x900 series) produces less pressure and relatively long ink lines (you can see it on Eric Gulbransen's photos in Epson 7900 from the inside - out thread), where air bubbles cumulate, thermal head (Canon PF-05 in x300 - x400 series) has less potential space where air bubbles can gather, and even if they gather the thermal element produces more pressure, so it can get rid of them - according to that information this is the main reason why thermal head is less prone to clogging than piezo head.

Marcin, this doesn't really "hang together". For one thing, the pressure at which the printhead spews ink through the nozzles has nothing to do with the length of the ink lines leading to the damper and head assemblies. For another, the mechanisms by which the ink is ejected from the head are totally different between the two, but I haven't seen technical data indicating which ejects ink at higher pressure; however not clear to me it even matters to the question of air bubbles - in fact a thermal head produces air bubbles at extremely high temperature in order to eject the ink. If you haven't done so already, I would recommend you read some real technical material on the comparative functioning of Piezo and Thermal printheads. Nothing you are telling me or I am telling you really explains why one printer model APPEARS to produce more or less nozzle clogs than another. I think there are several reasons why this happens, and what Wayne Fox says above is about as far as I can take it.

(I forgot to mention: it is not the least bit self-evident that the length of the lines has anything to do with whether air bubbles reach the ink delivery paths in a manner that can cause air drops, which in nozzle check results can be confused for clogs. From all I've read, this depends on how the systems are sealed and whether air can be introduced, primarily through the cleaning systems; however, not being technically trained in this area I can only go by the research available in the public domain I have been able to access.)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 01:59:21 pm by Mark D Segal »
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deanwork

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2015, 04:12:39 pm »

1.8 on matt Canson Rag Photographique with Vivera Mk. It is a very noticeable visual difference from previous Epson and Piezography 1.64 max, which is about the same for Canon Lucia inks on the same matte media. The dmax is also very helpful for those of us who print on things like Belgian Linen, Haboti silk, cotton fabric, and Japanese Washi papers, as well as canvas. It helps a lot on those Kozo papers that usually have muted blacks. And of course the gray inks are neutral so you don't have to add color dots to the mix that often shows up in metameric failure. Hp did a lot of things right.

The Pk black is very close on all the brands.


1.8? or did you mean 2.8? 1.8 sounds like black on matt paper.
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JRSmit

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Re: Has Epson Stopped Developing Large-format Printers?
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2015, 04:26:24 am »

The Epson print head is open in the sense that it has no obstruction to let ink pass through. The inkselector assy that sits on top of the print head is the thing that control the ink feed to the print head.  The inksystem from cartridge up to and including the ink selector assy is pressurized. The dampers have a key role in the ink selector assy, amongst others regulatie the ink flow to the print head.  All in all the length of tubing (which is a mechanical given from the sizean configuration of the printer) from cartridge to ink selector assy has no bearing on the functioning of the printhead.
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