Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Right brain, left brain myth debunked  (Read 53347 times)

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2015, 11:59:15 am »

If the Thesis Of The Use of Golden Ratio In Art can be paraphrased as:

"Artists from time to time use pleasing rectangles, neither too fat nor too skinny, except for when they need a fat one or a skinny one"

then it's obviously true. But too weak of a thesis to be remotely interesting.

If the claim is that there's something special about that particular rectangle and ratio, as distinguished from rectangles that are fairly close but not the same, then it falls apart. If you claim everything from 1:1.5 to 1:1.8 as "Golden" then you've captured a lot of rectangles and ratios, and you'll find it all over the place. If you insist that only 1:1.61 through 1.625 are, then you're not going to find a lot of them. No more than rectangles in the ratio range 1:1.51 through 1:1.525.


Logged

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2015, 12:06:05 pm »

See, for instance, http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/teaching/maa/markowsky.pdf which cites Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science, Dover, 1957.

If you don't know who Martin Gardner is, I suggest you go find out. Look under "credible" in your dictionary, you'll probably find his portrait.

Just as an example, the golden ratio in the Great Pyramid in Egypt. One online reference I found quoted measurements to three decimal places. It quotes height and base width at the time of construction to the millimeter, which is pretty funny. Then it calculates one of, I don't know, at least a dozen likely candidate ratios, and comes up with the golden ratio to FIVE DECIMAL PLACES!!!! If you use more realistic estimated at-construction dimensions, quoted merely to the nearest 10th of a meter, you get a whopping 2 decimal places.

If you have a bunch of pyramids to pick from, and a bunch of measurements on each one you can pick from, and then help yourself out a little by altering the measurements to make them fit better, then, yep, you can likely find a Golden Ratio here and there. And don't worry, if the pyramids don't work out, there's plenty of other monuments and temples and crap to choose from.


ETA: See also https://xkcd.com/882/
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:53:48 pm by amolitor »
Logged

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2015, 03:10:50 pm »

The problem with people is that they want to see patterns, and when the see patterns they want to 'codify' it, and when they codify it 'nearly' is not enough. It has to be precise. Once they have found a link they then go overboard in making the data fit their hypothesis.

So as I see it, the golden ratio (and the rule of thirds is a close approximation) does produce aesthetically pleasing images and shapes and because of that people approximate it whether they realise what they are doing or not. But the problem the artist has other considerations - you cannot, for example, often model a picture strictly on the golden ratio because there are other things to consider such as the colour balance or the size of different elements, but the golden ratio is one element that influences the final image.

The problem comes when someone analyses it - if you take my first paragraph they try too hard to find repeating rectangles and here I agree with amolitor that it is effectively 'data mining' - try hard enough and you will eventually find a rectangle that fits. The author does not like to say 'it does not fit exactly but it is close enough' and the problem is that they then open themselves to cynicism. 

So the question, as a few have said, is we have two options: the artist decides 'I will design this piece of art to the golden ratio because I have been told it is aesthetically pleasing' or does the artist do what looks aesthetically pleasing and an analyst comes along and says 'goodness me, there are repeating patterns that are all aesthetically pleasing and they just happen to approximate to the golden ratio. I wonder why'.
I favour the latter.
Logged

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2015, 03:18:44 pm »

That's pretty much it, but I will take an opposing position that is, I admit, a difference only in the fine shading:

The Golden Ratio specifically as an aesthetic element is nonsense, but rectangles that aren't too fat and aren't too skinny are often a useful thing.
The Rule of Thirds specifically is nonsense, but sticking interesting things not in the middle, nor too close to the edge, is often a good idea.
Leading Lines, specifically, are nonsense, but sometimes an interesting thing's interest can be subtly clarified or enhanced with some lines (arrows, almost) that point to it.

and so on. In each of these idiot things there is a germ of an idea.

Are they pedagogically useful? Do they provide a useful stepping stone to the more important underlying principle, which is quite a bit more flexible than the "rule" or whatever you want to call it?

Undoubtedly they are useful for some people.

In many cases, though, and for many people, they actually obscure the genuinely useful ideas be replacing them with an easily memorized bit of dogma. I think they tend to freeze the mind into a specific shape, rather more than providing a stepping stone to something bigger and better. The underlying principles, the flexible set of ideas that something like the "Golden Mean" might represent, are simply not very hard. You don't need, in my opinion, to "ease into them with some simpler baby steps." You can just jump right in to the real thing, and ignore the simplified, inflexible, version.

I have, on several occasions, seen people reduced to shrieking maniacs over one or another of these things, insisting that Old Masters used these rules, and that I should just go look at some paintings. It became painfully clear that, while I had looked at a lot of paintings, the screamer hadn't. The screamer, in all cases, had been done some real damage by the rules, and was locked into an excessively inflexible state artistically, as well as a profoundly embarassing one intellectually.


« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 03:21:15 pm by amolitor »
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600

... the use of the golden ratio that has been the basis of composition styles since the renaissance.
I am with amolitor on this one.  I once went through dozens of catalogs of famous paintings and drawings from about 13th to mid-20th century, gathered the aspect ratios, and looked at their redistribution, and there was not the slightest hint of clustering near the Golden Ratio "Phi" [about 1.62]. If anything there was a bit of a gap between 1.5 and 2. Several shapes are far more common, such as 4:3 [about 1.33], 7:5 [1.4], 3:2 [1.5] and 5:4 [1.25].  Modern visual artists seem to agree, judging by the distribution of shapes in drawing paper and pre-stretched canvases: a huge variety of sizes and a far wider variety of shapes than with photographs prints are available, but 4:3 leads, followed by 3:2, 5:4 and 7:5.  The main shapes outside that dominant range of 5:4 to 3:2 are 1:1 and 2:1.  And need I mention the historical dominance of film, sensor and print formats by 5:4, 4:3 and 3:2?.

In summary, evidenced shape preferences consistently cluster well to the square side of "Phi".

Note: I am responding to claims of a preferences for the Golden Ratio over the centuries amongst creators of "rectangular, stationary images". This has no necessary connection to the common occurrence of the Golden Ratio in natural phenomena, or in motion picture shape preferences, or in the shapes of rectangles in classical architectural forms.  Fitting content into a suitable rectangular framing is a major issue here, not just how people react to a blank rectangle.


P. S. The Golden Ratio has nothing to do with the Rule of Thirds, which is a guideline about relative positioning within the rectangle ("one third of the way in from the top, bottom left or right edge") equal applicable to any rectangular shape.  I personally find the Rule of Thirds to be useful starting point, but have not looked into the "science" of it.


P. P. S. I just say amolitor's latest post, which is a good summary, but I have one quibble:
The Golden Ratio specifically as an aesthetic element is nonsense, but rectangles that aren't too fat and aren't too skinny are often a useful thing.
Yes, except that a far better numerical guideline would be be something between 4:3 and 3:2.  Maybe the former for verticals, the latter for horizontals, and 7:5 for the who insist on one number to rule them all.
These are also much simpler numbers to work with than Phi = (sqrt(5) + 1)/2 = 1.618... !
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 04:03:35 pm by BJL »
Logged

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535


P. S. The Golden Ratio has nothing to do with the Rule of Thirds, which is a guideline about relative positioning within the rectangle ("one third of the way in from the top, bottom left or right edge") equal applicable to any rectangular shape.  I personally find the Rule of Thirds to be useful starting point, but have not looked into the "science" of it.

Strictly, I agree with you. But the intersection of thirds is 'close enough' to the position of a golden mean for all practical purposes. You try and explain the 'golden ratio' to someone as a compositional aid and they will glaze over....talk about an intersection of  thirds and it is immediately understandable. Both help get the point of interest out of the middle but not too close to the edge.

But I agree with yourself and amolitor - it is unfortunate the the term 'rule of' has taken hold. Too many become enslaved by it.
Logged

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3122
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2015, 04:54:59 pm »

I will show you mine if you will show me yours…

There was a famous photographer who's artistic training emphasized geometric composition, and who showed continued interest in "Le nombre d'or. Rites et rythmes pythagoriciens dans le development de la civilisation occidentale".

However:

Quote
"… the two main shortcomings of claims about the presence of the Golden Ratio in architecture or in works of art, on the basis of dimensions alone: (1) they involve numerical juggling, and (2) they overlook inaccuracies in measurements.

p46 The Golden Ratio, Mario Livio"

Quote
The data from the present work leave the study of rectangle preferences in a quandary. There is no doubt that participants differ quite dramatically in their preferences, and … those preference are surprisingly stable … yet -- and it is a big "yet" -- none of the individual difference measures, either in personality, interest in aesthetics, or in response to experiment, explain those rectangle preference differences. The ritual obeisance to the Golden Section ... is not going to be of help in explaining the phenomenon as it seems to play no role, either generally or in the specific details …
…
Explanations in terms of the Golden Section need play no further role in understanding the phenomenom, but that does not mean that there is no phenomenon to be understood.

pp124-125 pdf Beyond the Golden Section and Normative Aesthetics: Why Do Individuals Differ so Much in Their Aesthetic Preferences for Rectangles? 2010
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18208
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2015, 05:07:25 pm »

It seems to me there is much more nonsense in this thread than "leading lines" and "Golden Ratios."  ;)

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2015, 05:45:10 pm »

For example?
Any posts that disagree with Slobodan''s world view I would imagine.  :P
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18208
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2015, 06:58:59 pm »

Any posts that disagree with Slobodan''s world view I would imagine.  :P

Just blending in with those here who proclaim things that disagree with their world view "nonsense." :P

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3122
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2015, 07:39:32 pm »

Just blending in with those here who proclaim things that disagree with their world view "nonsense." :P

What were you calling nonsense?


The Golden Ratio specifically as an aesthetic element is nonsense, but rectangles that aren't too fat and aren't too skinny are often a useful thing.

When studied, people do not actually show a preference for Golden Ratio rectangles.

The idea that people would show a preference for Golden Ratio rectangles, is not nonsense - but it does seem to be wrong.

Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2015, 08:07:48 pm »

There are relationships in photos and video that provide for aesthetic viewing.  It's all kinds of things yet we seem to be stuck on the rule of thirds only.  There's the rule of getting the subject in focus, getting the right exposure, not having a telephone pole go through someone's head (unless it really is), the rule of looking into the frame not out, the rule of not cutting off limbs at the joint so the subject looks like a amputee, etc.  These artistic and aesthetic concepts are just what our brains find pleasing to look at.  The worse thing that has happened is that someone decided to call them rules.  People don't like following rules.  Maybe we should have called them aesthetic concepts instead of rules. 

The point is if you compose a picture aesthetically using what your brain finds the most pleasing, you will discover that you're following some rules.    Next time when you go to a movie, really look at how the cinematographer and director frames the picture and moves the action so that the picture holds up aesthetically and artistically.  You'll be amazed how many rules are followed.

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2015, 08:18:14 pm »

The rule-ification is quite modern, and largely photographers talking to other photographers, although it has started to creep out into popular texts on drawing and design and so on. Photographers are particularly prone to preferring rules based composition, to their detriment.

There's no doubt that all these things produce pleasing pictures. But the mainly produce the same pleasing picture over and over.

See the pictures attached to this little piece I wrote for ToP some time ago: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/08/your-turn-recipe-culture-by-andrew-molitor.html

It's a perfectly nice picture of a windmill. 4 copies of it. One could find thousands more in a few minutes.
Logged

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2015, 08:49:59 pm »

Let us perform a test. Someone select a ratio between 1 and 2, that is distinctly not 1.618. Say, between 1.1 and 1.5, or between 1.7 and 1.9.

To two digits after the decimal please.

I will take the first number posted, and go of and attempt to find rectangles and ratios in famous paintings and buildings. We'll see how it goes!
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18208
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2015, 09:23:12 pm »

... There's no doubt that all these things produce pleasing pictures. But the mainly produce the same pleasing picture over and over...

So?

If your goal is to deliver pleasing pictures, it makes sense to employ certain rules/guidelines/concepts that are known to produce pleasing results.

If your goal is to produce something different, chances are it won't be pleasing. At least not to your contemporaries. You might be celebrated in the next century as a trailblazer though.

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2015, 09:28:48 pm »

There are many pictures just as pleasing which do not slavishly adhere to these specific recipes.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18208
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2015, 09:29:48 pm »

About rules... reminds me of a discussion we had a couple of years ago on this forum, where a member known as "popnfresh" said the following:

"... People like to say that rules are meant to be broken, but I say that rules are meant to keep the clueless from looking like idiots. Only break a rule when you're good enough to know what you're doing."

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18208
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2015, 09:31:10 pm »

There are many pictures just as pleasing which do not slavishly adhere to these specific recipes.

Ha! But only because they adhere to some other specific recipes.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2015, 01:13:06 am »

The rule-ification is quite modern, and largely photographers talking to other photographers, although it has started to creep out into popular texts on drawing and design and so on. Photographers are particularly prone to preferring rules based composition, to their detriment.

There's no doubt that all these things produce pleasing pictures. But the mainly produce the same pleasing picture over and over.

See the pictures attached to this little piece I wrote for ToP some time ago: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/08/your-turn-recipe-culture-by-andrew-molitor.html

It's a perfectly nice picture of a windmill. 4 copies of it. One could find thousands more in a few minutes.


The article would have made a point if it showed a windmill that in comparison was special and different.   

What this is all about is that no one wants to be just another face in the crowd.   We all want our place in the sun.  Highly understandable.  So we twist aesthetics on its head.  We turn the camera so horizons are tilted.  We over or under expose.  We stick people against one side of the frame leaving the other side empty.  We make them look grungy using HDR.  We desaturate to BW and add sepia tints.  All of these to make our photos different.  And they are.  But do they pass the acid test of acceptability by others?  If they do, great.  If not, maybe its time to study the basics of composition, color harmony, and visual aesthetics.  Painters do.  Are we better then them?  Bending the rules only works if you're making a point or maybe an aesthetic that's rarely applied works for a particular shot.   But willy nilly distortions won't get it.

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Right brain, left brain myth debunked
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2015, 01:22:37 am »

What painters study has very little to do with Rule Of Thirds, Golden Ratio, or Leading Lines.

You are correct that they study color harmony (so do successful landscape photographers, but they jolly well don't tell anyone they did!) and so on. Balance, unity, variety. Breadth. How to distribute tone. Lots of things.

But nothing about rules of Thirds. Nothing about leading lines.

And that's the painters who just want to be Turner.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7   Go Up