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Author Topic: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..  (Read 28515 times)

Onslow

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Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« on: July 10, 2015, 11:54:21 pm »

Hi, Since December last yr I have been converting on import into LR my 5Dmkii files to dng. I do this as I believe the Dual Illuminant camera profile I have created using my Colorchecker passport can be embedded into the file. I asked jeff awhile ago re this and found out the Update DNG Previews and Metadata is required to actually embed the profile. So, up until now my import would occur, the dng previews would be created and then I would select all images so that I could then "Update DNG Previews and Metadata". A bit long winded but it did what I thought was necessary.
I am now looking at a computer upgrade. Currently win7 64. I have lots of camera profiles from various shoots. I have lost profiles as well and discovered this when I view the image and see the camera calibration defaulting back to Adobe Standard or some such. Wanting to avoid this, I started the dng conversions.
Up until today I thought all was fine, however I have performed some tests and either I don't understand what is occurring or there is a bug... Could someone advise me please. I have searched online at adobe but haven't found an answer.
1) I shot a new image today and imported as dng into LR6. I have custom settings including the dual illuminant camera profile set as default settings. I Updated the Dng preview and metadata on it to embed the profile. I then took that dng over to my sons laptop with my 2nd  (installed today, no custom settings and no custom camera profiles) copy of LR6. I checked the camera profiles and it gave me an old profile from a yr and a half ago from ACR.
2) I then took a LR5 processed dng from january this yr and ran update DNG previews and metadata on the dng file. I took that over to the laptop, checked the camera calibration tab and find the correct dual illuminant.
Now, it seems that my understanding was correct for LR5 but is this a bug with it not embedding correctly or has something changed I haven't picked up on?
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digitaldog

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2015, 12:33:33 pm »

Now, it seems that my understanding was correct for LR5 but is this a bug with it not embedding correctly or has something changed I haven't picked up on?
This appears to me to be an LR6 bug and I can confirm on this end, the same issue. Updated DNG as you describe, copy file to Finder, import into virgin catalog. Result is Adobe Standard, not the profile I selected.
Actually testing again (twice) I do see the new catalog honoring the embedded (correct) profile now, not sure what's up with that! It could still be some intermittent bug because I did see LR "assign" Adobe Standard to a DNG that was custom profiled like it's neighbors. I'd say keep an eye on this one.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 12:40:05 pm by digitaldog »
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digitaldog

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2015, 01:20:38 pm »

Something is wrong here, I'm seeing inconsistent results where images that should have my custom profile don't after import to a different catalog.
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Onslow

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2015, 09:27:26 pm »

Something is wrong here, I'm seeing inconsistent results where images that should have my custom profile don't after import to a different catalog.
Thank you Andrew for checking. Following a suggestion I have received, I copied the LR6 dng which had Update DNG Preview and Metadata performed on my original pc, from the 2nd pc which showed the incorrect profile back to my original machine. I copied it into the catalog with no changes performed during the import and then checked the profile. It read the correct Dual Illuminated Profile? Odd,
As I say, I performed the updating preview in LR6, where I can see the correct profile.
Copied and viewed on machine 2 which showed an old, incorrect profile. (Btw, when checking I saw only the adobe profile offerings and two old profiles from a yr and a half or so ago).
The copied the same file back to machine 1 which after import with no changes made, showed the correct profile.

As a further test, I have created a new test catalog on my original machine(#1) I imported the files into the new catalog, checked and all of the profiles are as they should be.

This is a concern as when I make the move to the new machine in several weeks, I would prefer to have all of the profiles embedded in the dng correctly and not worry about profiles being missed when copying the profiles from the old to the new machine.
Currently, Machine #2 which doesn't have the relevant profiles but has the same version of LR as my current machine is throwing up this error.
This indicates it is a bug.......
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BobShaw

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2015, 10:08:05 pm »

Sounds like and awful lot of effort to go down a dark Adobe road with no exits. (:-)

I would just keep the files raw and adjust the ones that need to be adjusted. I assume the purpose of this is to correct the inaccuracies of the camera colour. I have a 5D2 and while it's a great camera colour accuracy is not it's long suit. For less money I actual bought a Hasselblad H3D and the colour is perfect straight out of the camera. (I profiled it the and there was minimal difference.) I didn't use the ColorCheckR Passport though, I was disappointed that it didn't work with anything except LR, so I bought the SpyderCheckr, which produces HSL adjustments.

I now use the Canon for general things but where I want accurate colours I use a camera with that.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2015, 10:11:40 pm »

I was disappointed that it didn't work with anything except LR
it actually does work with any raw converter that accepts either icc/icm or dcp containers for camera profiles... more so - any kind of target does work for any kind of such raw converter ( excluding the cases of intentionally unusable targets - like for example a target with just one patch  :D )
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:14:33 pm by AlterEgo »
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Onslow

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2015, 10:23:43 pm »

Sounds like and awful lot of effort to go down a dark Adobe road with no exits. (:-)

I would just keep the files raw and adjust the ones that need to be adjusted. I assume the purpose of this is to correct the inaccuracies of the camera colour. I have a 5D2 and while it's a great camera colour accuracy is not it's long suit. For less money I actual bought a Hasselblad H3D and the colour is perfect straight out of the camera. (I profiled it the and there was minimal difference.) I didn't use the ColorCheckR Passport though, I was disappointed that it didn't work with anything except LR, so I bought the SpyderCheckr, which produces HSL adjustments.

I now use the Canon for general things but where I want accurate colours I use a camera with that.
Bob, the reason I choose to go down the DNg path is that in the past I have had profiles go missing. Whilst the info was stored in the xmp, the actual profile isn't.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2015, 10:34:23 pm »

in the past I have had profiles go missing.
why don't you just backup the catalog where Adobe likes to keep user supplied DCP profiles, that's it... Adobe in its infinite wisdom does not allow ACR/LR to pickup profile(s) from the same catalog where the raw file(s) reside(s) - only from a few predefined catalogs, so just backup them on a regular basis, just like you do backup your raw files or LR catalog, that's it.
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Onslow

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2015, 11:40:15 pm »

why don't you just backup the catalog where Adobe likes to keep user supplied DCP profiles, that's it... Adobe in its infinite wisdom does not allow ACR/LR to pickup profile(s) from the same catalog where the raw file(s) reside(s) - only from a few predefined catalogs, so just backup them on a regular basis, just like you do backup your raw files or LR catalog, that's it.
The machine is backed up regularly as is the catalog daily. The missing profiles were from before I adopted LR several yrs ago. I occasionally send clients raw files and I want the profiles embedded. It saves mucking around with larger psd's or tiffs. The other reason I have gone to dng is the ability to validate them.
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digitaldog

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2015, 10:06:51 am »

Bob, the reason I choose to go down the DNg path is that in the past I have had profiles go missing. Whilst the info was stored in the xmp, the actual profile isn't.
Exactly and it's a very useful road to go down when you have multiple processing machines running LR and don't want to (or need to) have multiple copies of DNG profiles installed. The profiles should just be embedded into the DNG.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2015, 10:30:27 am »

Exactly and it's a very useful road to go down when you have multiple processing machines running LR and don't want to (or need to) have multiple copies of DNG profiles installed. The profiles should just be embedded into the DNG.
or a more simple solution is to allow ACR/LR to pickup profiles from the same location where the raw files are stored...
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digitaldog

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2015, 11:55:55 am »

or a more simple solution is to allow ACR/LR to pickup profiles from the same location where the raw files are stored...
No, it's not simpler and it's not how the DNG container was designed (we've found a bug) and it's not what the OP, I and other's want! Imagine rendered images without the ability to embed an ICC profile. Awful! The same is true for those of us that wish to use the DNG container as designed.

I have to ask you, do you even use a DNG workflow? Do you actually realize the raw files and the DNG camera profiles don't reside in the same location and many of us want them to do so, by having them inside the DNG?

The facts are, some of us have multiple machines and don't want multiple DNG profiles separate from the images that require the profile or it gets substituted and that greatly and incorrectly affects it's image appearance. The facts are, the DNG container should allow us to embed this important data directly into said container. It's simpler (for us at least), cuts down in possibly missing files and ensures the raw and profile stay together.

There's no logical argument other than LR6 should do what it was designed to do with respect to DNG camera profiles and embed them into the container.

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BobShaw

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2015, 09:07:51 pm »

Not sure why people shout like someone here knows how something was designed or has any input to it. Talk to Adobe if you think there is a design issue.

What is DNG, is it a raw file format, or a profile? I have raw files, and I have profiles. The system works and if I want to change to say Capture One then it will still work.
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Onslow

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2015, 09:31:12 pm »

Something is wrong here, I'm seeing inconsistent results where images that should have my custom profile don't after import to a different catalog.
Andrew, Thanks for checking. I don't see quite what you are seeing. If the catalog is on the machine #1 where the profiles live, they are picked up correctly. If the dng's are transferred to another machine where I know the dual illuminant profile is not installed, then it fails to show the correct embedded profile.
Here is a dropbox link to a dng test I have done. I shot it yesterday, converted to dng, Ran 'Update Dng Previews and Metadata' to embed my dual illuminant profile called "5DMk2 Dual Illuminant Profile". On my usual machine using LR6.1, the profile is shown. When I take it onto the other machine running LR6.1 and which doesn't have the profile installed on it, it shows another profile instead, one called "20130424 Catalina" which is on machine #2.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96709542/ConvertedOnImportIUpdatedPreviewsMG_2354.dng

You would agree then that this is a bug, correct?
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Onslow

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2015, 12:54:04 am »

One further thing. I received a suggestion to export the dng as Dng's and as Original to check if the correct profile was applied on export. I did this. On my original machine, the correct profile is found on both. On the laptop though with LR6.1, the incorrect 20130323 Catalina profile is seen.
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sandymc

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2015, 08:12:12 am »

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96709542/ConvertedOnImportIUpdatedPreviewsMG_2354.dng

Taking a quick look inside the DNG, the profile name in the file you uploaded shows as "20130317 Jeff and Pauline Venning 3". It's a single illuminant D55 profile.

Sandy
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Onslow

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2015, 08:49:13 am »

Taking a quick look inside the DNG, the profile name in the file you uploaded shows as "20130317 Jeff and Pauline Venning 3". It's a single illuminant D55 profile.

Sandy

Yes, I have been told that by someone else. Yet, on the original machine, it is called 5Dmk2 Dual Illumant Profile and on the 2nd machine I see the profile is called 20130424 Catalina. I do NOT see the Jeff and Pauline venning profile at all.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2015, 08:58:11 am »

What is DNG, is it a raw file format, or a profile? I have raw files, and I have profiles.
raw file formats allow camera profiles to be stored within raw files...
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AlterEgo

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2015, 09:16:32 am »

No
Yes

, it's not simpler and it's not how the DNG container was designed

it has nothing to do with DNG container - just like DNG container was not designed for ACR/LR to pickup profiles from certain folders and not from others - this design decision is about the converter, not about DNG container - note that nobody is saying that you shall not be allowed to store your profiles in DNG files if you want so... however the implementation as usual is half done by Adobe - how about removing profiles or otherwise manipulating stored profiles from/in DNG files using standard Adobe tools ? yes, exactly...


(we've found a bug) and it's not what the OP, I and other's want!

congratulations with a bug if it is a bug, I and others want to be able to (_also_) use profiles stored with the same folders where raw files are

Imagine rendered images without the ability to embed an ICC profile.

absolutely, but the purpose of "raw" files is have a flexibility in "rendering" (conversion with whatever profiles I want), purpose of "images" (all quotes intended) are exactly to disallow that uncertainty about the color profile defining the color spaces in which color coordinates are... you, as usual, trying to obfuscate.


Awful! The same is true for those of us that wish to use the DNG container as designed.

as noted DNG container design has has nothing to do from which folders/catalogs ACR/LR pickup profiles - and it is also designed to store icc profiles - so why am I not able to do this using ACR/LR... the container was designed to be store them  :D, was it not ?


I have to ask you, do you even use a DNG workflow?

and I have to ask you if you even understand what it is ?


Do you actually realize the raw files and the DNG camera profiles don't reside in the same location and many of us want them to do so, by having them inside the DNG?

you even realize that some people actually want to keep raw files and relevant profiles in the same place ? and that those people do not try to impose their ways on you, but as usual display your arrogance by claiming that only your way is the right one ? get yourself a mirror and take a look in it.

The facts are, some of us have multiple machines and don't want multiple DNG profiles separate from the images that require the profile or it gets substituted and that greatly and incorrectly affects it's image appearance.

fact is that LR being not an enterprise solution still relies on raw files, profiles and LR catalogs being available through a regular filesystems... and there is also ACR (which you in your usual arrogance tend to forget) - so many of us have multiple machines, do not use LR and still want profiles to be kept along with raw files when we need that (which also helps us with our backup & sharing strategies), at the same time not wishing you to change your ways... again how about stop pretending to be the only righteous guru here ?

The facts are, the DNG container should allow us to embed this important data directly into said container. It's simpler (for us at least), cuts down in possibly missing files and ensures the raw and profile stay together.

the fact are, the converters (LR/ACR) shall allow us to use profiles how users want them to use, specifically those who do not wish to use DNG files at all.

There's no logical argument other than LR6 should do what it was designed to do with respect to DNG camera profiles and embed them into the container.

there are many that it and ACR also shall allow profiles to be stored along with raw files.

PS: I want to reiterate that by no means I wish you to lose the ability to store your profiles in DNG files... however the more simple solution is to (also) allow to store profiles per catalog (even for LR users keeping everything in LR catalogs to store them there)... 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 09:19:33 am by AlterEgo »
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digitaldog

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Re: Embedding camera profiles in Dng problem (LR6)..
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2015, 09:32:11 am »

Not sure why people shout like someone here knows how something was designed or has any input to it. Talk to Adobe if you think there is a design issue.
What is DNG, is it a raw file format, or a profile?
Neither, it's a file format container that can contain raw or rendered data (you can save a  JPEG inside a DNG), and it contains profile data among lots of other data we can store within the container called DNG. Not much different than TIFF!
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