Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.  (Read 24872 times)

Josh-H

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2067
    • Wild Nature Photo Travel
DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« on: July 09, 2015, 05:55:35 am »

For those who put stock in such findings...
DXO Mark 5DSR

Having now shot with this camera in the field (5DSR) I can say the resolution is pretty phenomenal. Dynamic range is about the same or a whiff better than the 1DX in my experience (which for my work is plenty). I prefer the 1DX file for shadow recovery - but the 5DSR is just fine in this regard for my needs. And as I shoot with Grads in the field the DR just isn't an issue for me personally. YMMV if you don't use grads in your landscape work.

Quote
Boasting an unprecedented 50.6Mp resolution, the EOS 5DS and 5DS R offer a unique DSLR shooting solution. What’s more, our industry standard tests have shown these are the best sensor results yet for a Canon chip, with the 5DS cameras offering a small step up for image quality against other full-frame semi-pro models such as the EOS 6D and EOS 5D Mark III. Our measurements show that there’s very little difference between the 5DS and 5DS R sensors, but we’ve seen both models post better scores in print results compared to those on screen.
As usual, the best scores are recorded at each sensor’s base ISO setting, and here the 5DS sensors are a little off the pace against the best chips we’ve analyzed (in the Nikon D810 and the Sony A7R). This is particularly true for Dynamic Range, where the Nikon and Sony models boast around a two-stop advantage at base ISO, although the gaps narrows as sensitivity is increased.
With its massive resolution and best results in print, the EOS 5DS and 5DS R are great solutions for photographers shooting at low ISO sensitivities for large scale prints.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 06:00:20 am by Josh-H »
Logged
Wild Nature Photo Travel

peterottaway

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 91
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2015, 06:54:15 am »

I'm sure like most Canon cameras it is totally adequate in performance for most people. But it does reinforce the argument that has been growing  about the the Canon 5 range that Canon is lagging in technical / IP terms for the last few years. Whether this is lack of interest, lack of ability or simply a totally dominant sales department who knows ?

But it does give a new take on less is more.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17798
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2015, 10:19:45 am »

Oh, you got to love that marketing lingo! Putting "Canon" and "best sensor" in the same sentence is a pure marketing genius. Not unlike saying: "Yugo - the best Yugoslav car yet."  ;D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 01:02:44 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
Logged

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2513
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2015, 11:18:00 am »

On the other hand, not every photographer needs that extra stop of dynamic range, and may prefer the Canon lens offerings and ergonomics. Yes, it would be nice to have a "perfect" camera system leading in every area, but there is no such perfect system, only systems which fit different needs.
Logged

rainer_v

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1194
    • http://www.tangential.de
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2015, 12:20:02 pm »

Quite significant differneces following DXO:
nikon 810: 97 score, sony a7r ( not the new model ) 95 score ... and canon 5dsr  86.
Logged
rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Rainer SLP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
    • RS-Fotografia
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2015, 02:05:26 pm »

Hi,

It is interesting to read the different opinions about which is the best camera etc.

I found this and I think it is quite interesting

http://www.mattgranger.com/gear-talk/item/791-the-truth-about-dxo-camera-sensor-ratings

Logged
Thanks and regards Rainer
 I am here for

capital

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 222
    • Website
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2015, 04:02:25 pm »

Seems the mumbo jumbo about the stronger CFA on the sensor did not amount to much difference in color sensitivity versus the prior 5DIII.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13878
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2015, 05:27:04 pm »

And as I shoot with Grads in the field the DR just isn't an issue for me personally. YMMV if you don't use grads in your landscape work.

I would buy a good stock of those while they still make them. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

zabouti

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2015, 07:08:11 pm »

But DxO apparently doesn't mean that the best Canon sensor is the best sensor: link
Logged

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2513
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2015, 07:48:40 pm »

Lee can't keep up with the demand for ND grads. Filters will remain important tools in the video industry for a while, at least for those not shooting full RAW.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11310
    • Echophoto
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2015, 08:48:18 pm »

Hi,

The colour sensivity is more related to noise than to CFA. There is another figure called SMI that measures colour reproduction potential.

But, colour reproduction may be much more dependent on camera profiles than on CFA design.

Best regards
Erik


Seems the mumbo jumbo about the stronger CFA on the sensor did not amount to much difference in color sensitivity versus the prior 5DIII.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11310
    • Echophoto
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2015, 08:59:12 pm »

Hi,

Good info. That video puts the DxO-rating in a good and relevant perspective.

The most important aspect is that DxO-mark is just about sensor and leaves all other factors aside.

I would say that what DxO finds is that Canons can pull out less shadow detail than cameras using more modern sensors, and that has been confirmed by photographers shooting both systems.

It also seems that Canon used to have a noise pattern that is a bit ugly, but it may be much improved on the D5s.

Something less obvious may be that the DR advantage of Nikon is only present at low ISOs, so if shooting at 800 ISO that advantage is gone.

Best regards
Erik


Hi,

It is interesting to read the different opinions about which is the best camera etc.

I found this and I think it is quite interesting

http://www.mattgranger.com/gear-talk/item/791-the-truth-about-dxo-camera-sensor-ratings


Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

kers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3875
    • Pieter Kers
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2015, 03:02:23 am »

I see at low ISO 2.5 stops difference in dynamic range...
Does that mean that if you compare the information in an image to a one of a D810 you need to bracket     -1.25  , 0,   +1.25    to be equal?
Logged
Pieter Kers
www.beeld.nu/la

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11310
    • Echophoto
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2015, 03:56:07 am »

Hi,

No, it means you can extract 2,5 stops of extra detail in the shadow. So you expose ETTR on a Canon than you make another exposure at +2.5 stops and blend.

The difference between the two systems is mainly that the Nikon has much lower shadow noise.

I know Hans Kruse, the guy who arranges the Dolomites workshops. He shoot both Canon and Nikon. What he says is that we Canon it is important to expose ETTR (maximum without clipping highlights) and HDR may be needed. Hans says that much less care is needed on Nikon.

The way he does it, he always brackets three shots and blends if needed.

Some programs can do HDR/fusion on raw images, this applies to both LumaRiver HDR and Lightroom 6. There is little reason to blend a lot of images. Two images 3-5 stops apart may blend well. Both programs I have mentioned give an image with great DR and normal raw processing tools can be used to map that DR to a natural rendition, so you don't get that "HDR-look".

Just to say, this all applies to base ISO. At high ISOs the DR advantage of Nikon/Sony/Leica over Canon is lost.

Best regards
Erik

Quote

I see at low ISO 2.5 stops difference in dynamic range...
Does that mean that if you compare the information in an image to a one of a D810 you need to bracket     -1.25  , 0,   +1.25    to be equal?

 









Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8901
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2015, 04:52:38 am »

Seems the mumbo jumbo about the stronger CFA on the sensor did not amount to much difference in color sensitivity versus the prior 5DIII.

Hi,

Do not misinterpret the numbers, and yes they need interpretation.

Color sensitivity as measured by DxOmark, is very much signal to noise ratio and dynamic range driven. And we know that Canon sensors are not leading in that aspect. Also, the small photosites of the 5DS with their smaller 'well depth' or storage capacity will have a harder time to collect many photons. But they compensate for their small size by their large number of photosites per unit area.

Now look at the Sensitivity metamerism index (ISO 17321): 5d Mark III was 74 / 75 (for CIE-D50 / CIE-A), the 5DS is 82 / 71, and e.g. the D810 is 80 / 78. So the Daylight metamerism index has improved significantly over its predecessor.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

dwswager

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1375
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2015, 02:01:51 pm »

At high ISOs the DR advantage of Nikon/Sony/Leica over Canon is lost.

True.  The gap narrows continuously and about 800 or so ISO becomes negligible. 

However, the 'cleaner' shadows remain.  Try under exposing a Canon sensor 2 or 3 stops while shooting sports on a poorly lit field.  Basically you can shoot a D810 at ISO 800 while the Canon would need to be shot at ISO 5000 or so.
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8901
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2015, 03:30:46 pm »

True.  The gap narrows continuously and about 800 or so ISO becomes negligible.  

However, the 'cleaner' shadows remain.  Try under exposing a Canon sensor 2 or 3 stops while shooting sports on a poorly lit field.  Basically you can shoot a D810 at ISO 800 while the Canon would need to be shot at ISO 5000 or so.

Hi,

No, that's not correct. The shadows (and thus the DR) of both cameras are virtually identical at nominal ISO 800 or higher (see attachment, normalized to same size output). When shot at ISO 100 and pushed 8x in post, yes then the Nikon is cleaner, but that would be a silly thing to do with any Canon. Once at ISO 800-1250, one can safely push in post processing, with little different  versus shooting at higher  ISOs, other than gaining more highlight headroom when the ISO is not cranked up too much.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 03:46:06 pm by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Jeff Fenske

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2015, 05:55:57 pm »

Hi,

Do not misinterpret the numbers, and yes they need interpretation.

Color sensitivity as measured by DxOmark, is very much signal to noise ratio and dynamic range driven. And we know that Canon sensors are not leading in that aspect. Also, the small photosites of the 5DS with their smaller 'well depth' or storage capacity will have a harder time to collect many photons. But they compensate for their small size by their large number of photosites per unit area.

Now look at the Sensitivity metamerism index (ISO 17321): 5d Mark III was 74 / 75 (for CIE-D50 / CIE-A), the 5DS is 82 / 71, and e.g. the D810 is 80 / 78. So the Daylight metamerism index has improved significantly over its predecessor.

Cheers,
Bart

It's really strange, though. The 5DsR has the exact same metamerism results as the 5D3: 74/75 (CIE-50/CIE-A). But the 5Ds is much better for daylight at 82/71, which is close to the improvement I was hoping for.

How can this be? Did Canon tweak the 5DsR for artificial light and the 5Ds for daylight, without telling us?

Or did DxO have a bad copy of one of the cameras, or made an error?

There are three theories I've been considering.

The first is that Canon has weakened the CFAs on their latest cameras to let more light in to get lower noise at high ISOs, compromising accurate color to do so. But Canon doesn't let on what they are doing. The metamerism scores seem to be the best indicator. The 5Ds/5DsR was rumored to have stronger CFAs.

The second is that Canon has been tweaking the color filter arrays (CFAs) to perform better in artificial light, which has compromised daylight color.

The third is that they're tweaking the CFAs to get "more pleasing" caucasian skin tone colors.

I'm not happy with the third theory, because I mainly shoot landscape, but that's may be unchangeable. But what about the first two? I was hoping the 5DsR would again give more accurate daylight color, like the 1Ds3 is known for, having a 86 daylight metamerism score. It's artificial light score was a really high 80 too, though.

Nikon used the same AA filter cancellation method in the D800/D800E, but DxO's metamerism scores were only 1 point different. So the AA filter can't be causing this huge metamerism score difference in these new 5Ds cameras.

Canon has been totally silent about what they've been doing to color, so I wouldn't expect them to announce color changes to these cameras (though, it would be very helpful). But why would the AA version have better daylight results than the cancelled AA version?

No one seems to have the answer at DPR or FM, so I thought I'd ask here. This is so strange to have the exact same metamerism score as the 5D3 in just one of these cameras.

The 5D3 seems to be prone to have too much purple, for example, perhaps to make up for the lack of purple in artificial light, I'm guessing.

It's so hard to figure this out, because hardly anyone has been addressing the topic of what Canon has been doing to color.

Back in the film days, it seemed that everyone talked about color, and knew what each film did. But now that the camera companies are dialing in color characteristics into the hardware, there hasn't been much discussion at all. But lots of talk about DR, sharpness and ISO noise. But color isn't any less important.

A similar thing has happened in HiFi audio, in which the 'magic' is mostly now gone, to make components and audio files that are "good enough" instead of excellent and breathtaking.

This is my first post here, but I've been reading the LL forums for many years, and I've found some of your posts fascinating, Bart! Thank you, very much!
Logged

Phil Indeblanc

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2017
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2015, 08:20:58 pm »

It's really strange, though. The 5DsR has the exact same metamerism results as the 5D3: 74/75 (CIE-50/CIE-A). But the 5Ds is much better for daylight at 82/71, which is close to the improvement I was hoping for.

How can this be? Did Canon tweak the 5DsR for artificial light and the 5Ds for daylight, without telling us?

Or did DxO have a bad copy of one of the cameras, or made an error?

There are three theories I've been considering.

The first is that Canon has weakened the CFAs on their latest cameras to let more light in to get lower noise at high ISOs, compromising accurate color to do so. But Canon doesn't let on what they are doing. The metamerism scores seem to be the best indicator. The 5Ds/5DsR was rumored to have stronger CFAs.

The second is that Canon has been tweaking the color filter arrays (CFAs) to perform better in artificial light, which has compromised daylight color.

The third is that they're tweaking the CFAs to get "more pleasing" caucasian skin tone colors.

I'm not happy with the third theory, because I mainly shoot landscape, but that's may be unchangeable. But what about the first two? I was hoping the 5DsR would again give more accurate daylight color, like the 1Ds3 is known for, having a 86 daylight metamerism score. It's artificial light score was a really high 80 too, though.

Nikon used the same AA filter cancellation method in the D800/D800E, but DxO's metamerism scores were only 1 point different. So the AA filter can't be causing this huge metamerism score difference in these new 5Ds cameras.

Canon has been totally silent about what they've been doing to color, so I wouldn't expect them to announce color changes to these cameras (though, it would be very helpful). But why would the AA version have better daylight results than the cancelled AA version?

No one seems to have the answer at DPR or FM, so I thought I'd ask here. This is so strange to have the exact same metamerism score as the 5D3 in just one of these cameras.

The 5D3 seems to be prone to have too much purple, for example, perhaps to make up for the lack of purple in artificial light, I'm guessing.

It's so hard to figure this out, because hardly anyone has been addressing the topic of what Canon has been doing to color.

Back in the film days, it seemed that everyone talked about color, and knew what each film did. But now that the camera companies are dialing in color characteristics into the hardware, there hasn't been much discussion at all. But lots of talk about DR, sharpness and ISO noise. But color isn't any less important.

A similar thing has happened in HiFi audio, in which the 'magic' is mostly now gone, to make components and audio files that are "good enough" instead of excellent and breathtaking.

This is my first post here, but I've been reading the LL forums for many years, and I've found some of your posts fascinating, Bart! Thank you, very much!


Interesting observations and true conclusions!
Logged
If you buy a camera, you're a photographer...

DaveCurtis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 508
    • http://www.magiclight.co.nz
Re: DXO Mark - 5DS / R - Best Canon Sensor Yet.
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2015, 09:03:59 pm »

Perhaps people don't talk about colour so much as it can be dealt with in raw development. Role your own profiles to meet your own requirement etc
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up