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Author Topic: Sony A7rII - sensor tech  (Read 16282 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2015, 09:30:32 am »

Open systems are not a guarantee for commercial success.
Look at M43. Open, but hardly the best selling mirrorless system out there.
at the same time imagine it being "closed"... so being "open" makes it at least better performing
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 09:34:54 am »

Sony is an electronics company without much of a background in making lenses
nowadays you don't design lenses manually - software and databases with optics properties do - you just make a decision what will be the cost to make vs price to sell...  do you really think that Sony can't design a lens and assemble/QA it for $5000-10000K price tag that is not as good as any "Leica" ? but they can't sell it - hence they have to design/manufacture/QA for a much lesser cost and much lesser price.
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 11:05:52 am »

at the same time imagine it being "closed"... so being "open" makes it at least better performing

It has a huge disadvantage in terms of small sensor size and lack of pro-level lenses designed with such a small sensor in mind, so it was never going to win over professionals and advanced amateurs - only people who stepping up from point-and-shoots and attracted by the low price, as well as those who emphasise 'small' above all other considerations.
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 11:09:52 am »

nowadays you don't design lenses manually - software and databases with optics properties do - you just make a decision what will be the cost to make vs price to sell...  do you really think that Sony can't design a lens and assemble/QA it for $5000-10000K price tag that is not as good as any "Leica" ? but they can't sell it - hence they have to design/manufacture/QA for a much lesser cost and much lesser price.

Anyone with the right software can design a lens. But you need huge, high-tech fabrication and assembly plants to produce the individual optical components and put it all together. Sony's fabrication and assembly lines are all about producing electronics, not growing and shaping optical-grade crystals on an industrial scale, so they can't produce the same lens at the same price as other, more established players (Nikon, Sigma, Canon, Zeiss).
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 11:10:36 am »

lack of pro-level lenses
there is no lack of pro-level lenses in m43 system... points like smaller sensor area, less MP and CDAF still not at the speed level of 1Dx/D4* PDAF are valid of course, but quality of image that m43 lenses project on the sensor assembly surface to be resolved by 16mp m43 sized sensor is very much pro-level... we are not talking about dark kit zooms, albeit even they are OK - smaller sensor/less MP - less issues... plus EFCS in E-M1 with hand held/through EVF viewfinder usage (name one dSLR that has EFCS and no mirror slap when used with OVF) and CDAF precision for sub 2.8 aperture focusing with greater relatively DOF again help them
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:19:46 am by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2015, 11:12:03 am »

But you need huge, high-tech fabrication and assembly plants to produce the individual optical components and put it all together.

tell that to Leica again... about huge plants... and Sigma... did you read reports from their plant (Imaging-Resource visited it)... it is anything but huge (http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/09/19/a-geeks-tour-of-sigmas-aizu-lens-factory-precision-production-from-the-insi) = 50,000 square feet... Sony will not even blink to make 10 times bigger filled with the same equipment, that's not a question of the size - but the question of what you can sell to your market.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:15:06 am by AlterEgo »
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2015, 12:06:20 pm »

there is no lack of pro-level lenses in m43 system... points like smaller sensor area, less MP and CDAF still not at the speed level of 1Dx/D4* PDAF are valid of course, but quality of image that m43 lenses project on the sensor assembly surface to be resolved by 16mp m43 sized sensor is very much pro-level... we are not talking about dark kit zooms, albeit even they are OK - smaller sensor/less MP - less issues... plus EFCS in E-M1 with hand held/through EVF viewfinder usage (name one dSLR that has EFCS and no mirror slap when used with OVF) and CDAF precision for sub 2.8 aperture focusing with greater relatively DOF again help them

Image quality is only one part of it.

There's also build quality, the availability of fast lenses (a M43 lens needs to be f/1.4 just to match the depth of field of f/2.8 on full frame, and they won't be bringing out any f/0.7 m43 lenses any time soon...), focus speed (yes, Zeiss and Leica get away with it, but those lenses are specifically designed for manual focus and you know what you're buying).
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2015, 12:25:50 pm »

tell that to Leica again... about huge plants... and Sigma... did you read reports from their plant (Imaging-Resource visited it)... it is anything but huge (http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/09/19/a-geeks-tour-of-sigmas-aizu-lens-factory-precision-production-from-the-insi) = 50,000 square feet... Sony will not even blink to make 10 times bigger filled with the same equipment, that's not a question of the size - but the question of what you can sell to your market.

One thing's for sure - breaking into an established market with a captive audience is very difficult. People are already locked in to Canon and Nikon, so Sony can't simply rely on doing the same thing and expecting people to jump ship. People aren't about to dump $10-$50k worth of lenses to jump to a new system, for almost any reason.

They do produce a great sensor, though, and there's no technical reason they can't make third-party lenses focus just as fast on a Sony body as a native Sony lens. Indeed, it seems they've made strides in this direction on the A7rII. After all, all the camera needs to do is tell the lens to go forward or go back, and provide enough power for it to do so quickly - all the computing is done in the body using information from the sensor(s), with no input from the lens.

Sony is not going to win a market share of lenses by releasing bodies which only work properly with Sony lenses - that will just ensure that no-one buys the bodies either, with the exception of beginners and those who don't care about AF. They're only going to win it as current Nikon/Canon lenses gradually become obsolete and people replace them with Sony lenses. In order to do this, they'll have to release bodies which can use Canon/Nikon lenses to their full potential (in order to attract Canon/Nikon shooters into buying Sony bodies) and gradually release a comprehensive, high-quality set of lenses to go with it. Not just the common ones, not just lightweight/miniature lenses, but also specialised and larger lenses such as supertelephotos, f/2.8 zooms, f/1.4 primes and tilt-shifts, so that the Sony lineup becomes a credible alternative to Nikon/Canon for professional users. That way, people will start with Sony bodies, taking advantage of their features without having to replace their entire lens lineup, then gradually replace their Canon/Nikon lenses with Sony lenses as they become obsolete and as Sony becomes a more-and-more credible player in the camera business. You're never going to win market share by erecting a huge barrier for current users of other systems to switch to your new system - you need to make it as easy as possible.
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Paul Roark

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2015, 01:11:19 pm »

I think of Sony as the new, top electronic "film" maker.

As to the open v. lock-in approach, Sony can have the best of both.  I use Leica, Canon and Sony glass on my Sony, but Canon and Leica can't use the Sony glass.  So, if Sony has Zeiss make a super optic for its short-flange mount, the others are locked out unless they come out with even a shorter flange camera.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Isaac

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2015, 03:31:53 pm »

but also specialised and larger lenses such as supertelephotos, f/2.8 zooms, f/1.4 primes and tilt-shifts

I always wonder how many 500mm F4 G SSM Super Tele's they've sold, and whether they make a profit.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2015, 03:38:28 pm »

There's also build quality

which is excellent

, the availability of fast lenses

which are available and unlike dSLR will not suffer from PDAF design precision issues where even AF focusing sensors for center points are at best aimed @ 2.8 aperture or darker

, focus speed (yes, Zeiss and Leica get away with it, but those lenses are specifically designed for manual focus and you know what you're buying).

m43 does not compete so far with 1Dx/D4*s in action, that's true...
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2015, 03:43:35 pm »

One thing's for sure - breaking into an established market with a captive audience is very difficult.

yes, just like Kodak found out...

People are already locked in to Canon and Nikon, so Sony can't simply rely on doing the same thing and expecting people to jump ship. People aren't about to dump $10-$50k worth of lenses to jump to a new system, for almost any reason.

people can use their Canon lenses on Sony cameras, and in many areas Sony bodies are way better with Canon lenses then Canon bodies... granted fast action with 1Dx is not that area (yet).


Sony is not going to win a market share of lenses by releasing bodies which only work properly with Sony lenses

and Sony does not... we heard a lot of issues of 3rd party makes with Canon or Nikon - did you ever hear about issues between them and Sony ?
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2015, 07:49:52 pm »

which are available and unlike dSLR will not suffer from PDAF design precision issues where even AF focusing sensors for center points are at best aimed @ 2.8 aperture or darker

'Fast' is a relative term - f/1.4 or f/1.8 is 'fast' for a full-frame lens (and f/2.8 or even f/4 are fast for medium format) but even f/1.4 does not allow for much subject isolation in M43 format, which is one of the main reasons people want fast lenses. And I don't see too may f/1.0 or faster M43 lenses being made, which would truly be 'fast' for M43.
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shadowblade

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2015, 07:53:48 pm »

yes, just like Kodak found out...

No-one was ever captive to Kodak. Sure, people bought Kodak film (although my preferred films were all Fujifilm) but they didn't have a large investment in equipment that could only be used with Kodak products. It was easy to jump to digital - all they had to do was buy a digital camera and put it behind their existing lenses, not buy an entirely new set of equipment.

Quote
people can use their Canon lenses on Sony cameras, and in many areas Sony bodies are way better with Canon lenses then Canon bodies... granted fast action with 1Dx is not that area (yet).


and Sony does not... we heard a lot of issues of 3rd party makes with Canon or Nikon - did you ever hear about issues between them and Sony ?

That's why the A7 series has been so successful - it's an open system. If it were a closed system, I doubt it would be seeing that much success.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2015, 08:15:03 pm »

No-one was ever captive to Kodak. Sure, people bought Kodak film (although my preferred films were all Fujifilm) but they didn't have a large investment in equipment that could only be used with Kodak products. It was easy to jump to digital - all they had to do was buy a digital camera and put it behind their existing lenses, not buy an entirely new set of equipment.

And all the Kodak DSLRs that I ever used took Nikon lenses.

Jim

AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2015, 09:43:31 pm »

No-one was ever captive to Kodak. Sure, people bought Kodak film (although my preferred films were all Fujifilm)
but they didn't have a large investment in equipment that could only be used with Kodak products. It was easy to jump to digital - all they had to do was buy a digital camera and put it behind their existing lenses, not buy an entirely new set of equipment.


just like C&N = K&F... the number of people with huge (for them) investment in C&N everything is miniscule... most of people outside cell phones and P&S cameras are with one body, may be 2 kit lenses max and may be one TTL flash... for them to dump C&N is not a problem - C&N is there not because those people invested in the system - but just because C&N have name recognition... just like K&F had name recognition in film era for a mass market... once the new tech emerges no name recognition alone helps forever...  


That's why the A7 series has been so successful - it's an open system.
being sufficiently open is just one variable with dSLMs be it E/FE or m43... once OVF crowd will eventually die off hopefully dSLRs will end up like bigger formats, but that only if off sensor PDAF still keep an advantage over on sensor PDAF/CDAF/DFD combo in dSLMs
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AlterEgo

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2015, 09:52:22 pm »

'Fast' is a relative term - f/1.4 or f/1.8 is 'fast' for a full-frame lens (and f/2.8 or even f/4 are fast for medium format) but even f/1.4 does not allow for much subject isolation in M43 format, which is one of the main reasons people want fast lenses.
and then they can't focus them with dSLRs properly...  well, may be one out of 10 times by pure luck with the precision and sharpness of CDAF & EFCS, but nobody shows those 9 wasted shots  :D and when they claim that it was artistic intent.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 02:13:56 am »

...Sony will not even blink to make 10 times bigger filled with the same equipment, that's not a question of the size - but the question of what you can sell to your market.
I tend to think that any company can make anything given enough time and money.

The question is if it makes sense to recruit people, build factories and throw yourself at a steep learning curve.

If you have an established position, with products selling in the market place, a solid set of IP and engineering organization in place, you know what you have. If you do not have these things, but others do, why would you start from scratch? Perhaps because the existing players are too expensive and/or hard to work with. Or because you have identified a niche that no-one else have.

-h
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dreed

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 04:53:46 am »

Sony is an electronics company without much of a background in making lenses (hence the reliance on Carl Zeiss) and they're starting from a position where no-one has Sony lenses and most people are 'locked in' to either Canon-mount or Nikon-mount lenses.

You're forgetting something very important here.

Sony effectively bought Minolta back in 2006.

That was the genesis for Sony's Alpha camera line.
 
From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konica_Minolta):

On January 19, 2006 the company announced that it was quitting the camera business due to high financial losses. SLR camera service operations were handed over to Sony starting on March 31, 2006 and Sony has continued development of cameras that are compatible with Minolta autofocus lenses.
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michael

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Re: Sony A7rII - sensor tech
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 07:04:13 am »

You're forgetting something very important here.

Sony effectively bought Minolta back in 2006.

That was the genesis for Sony's Alpha camera line.

That Sony doesn't know how to make lenses is one of the boogyman stories of the Internet. That they have Minolta technology is of course correct, and their G series of lenses (their equivalent of Leica "L") are top ranked. Even their kit lenses are as decent (or not) as those from Nikon and Canon.

And just as importantly, all the big companies use third-party lens makers to built many of their lenses, and this includes Nikon and Canon. It's just economics and load sharing.

Lenses from all companies are as good, or not, as their companies wish them to be for the price. Lens design is no longer a black art, and manufacturing is global. Even companies like Zeiss use OEM's from time to time. Buyers would be shocked to learn from where and by whom many of their lenses come.

I just bought a Mitakon 50mm f/0.95 lens in FE mount (Chinese company). It is absolutely first rate. This is not Mitakon's first lens by a long shot, just the beginning of self-labeling. They've been making lenses for others for years. It's just a repeat of the Cosina story. Large numbers of Zeiss lenses were made by Cosina (and still are) until they started to sell them under the Voigtlander name.

Michael



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