Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?  (Read 30160 times)

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 03:10:35 pm »

This sentence threw me:

"I then just used the ICC profile that produced the OOG overlay to convert to that color space using RelCol."

I don't understand what you are doing here. If printing, I would use the profile for my printer/paper combination in ProPhoto space. If there were OOG colours, I could select between RC and Perpetual to decide which handling of those OOG colours I prefer. The result should be no OOG colours one way or another. Is this what you are getting at?
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

HSakols

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1239
    • Hugh Sakols Photography
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 03:32:52 pm »

Yes, I've gotten in trouble trying to fix out of gamut colors while soft proofing.  In the end, I discovered that it was best just to not bother.  Thanks for all the good information. 
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 03:40:17 pm »

This sentence threw me:
"I then just used the ICC profile that produced the OOG overlay to convert to that color space using RelCol."
I don't understand what you are doing here. If printing, I would use the profile for my printer/paper combination in ProPhoto space. If there were OOG colours, I could select between RC and Perpetual to decide which handling of those OOG colours I prefer. The result should be no OOG colours one way or another. Is this what you are getting at?
Output is to Epson 3880 Luster. Loaded that into Customize Proof Setup. Select OOG overlay which is based on that profile unlike Color Range. Used profile to convert from ProPhoto RGB to Epson Luster versus adjusting as suggested using Saturation layer, then converting.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 03:43:02 pm by digitaldog »
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 03:48:23 pm »

Output is to Epson 3880 Luster. Loaded that into Customize Proof Setup. Select OOG overlay which is based on that profile unlike Color Range. Used profile to convert from ProPhoto RGB to Epson Luster versus adjusting as suggested using Saturation layer, then converting.

OK, So basically replicating the normal printing workflow for moving from ProPhoto to Printer/paper space.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2015, 03:50:49 pm »

OK, So basically replicating the normal printing workflow for moving from ProPhoto to Printer/paper space.
Yes. IOW, two attempts; use the profile to deal with OOG or do so manually then convert.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2015, 04:14:26 pm »

Yes. IOW, two attempts; use the profile to deal with OOG or do so manually then convert.

Interesting, because I have processed some photos where I was able to improve upon the automatic profile rendition by doing some taming of saturation before converting, but given the very wide gamut I anyhow obtain from a 4900 with IGFS paper, this is infrequent.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2015, 04:16:42 pm »

Interesting, because I have processed some photos where I was able to improve upon the automatic profile rendition by doing some taming of saturation before converting, but given the very wide gamut I anyhow obtain from a 4900 with IGFS paper, this is infrequent.
Improve using what kind of editing technique? Painting out OOG didn't work well for me at all. I think it's due to the lack of any kind of ability to know how far OOG the overlay is from other adjacent pixels. I may have been heavy handed in the brush work.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2015, 04:23:42 pm »

Improve using what kind of editing technique? Painting out OOG didn't work well for me at all. I think it's due to the lack of any kind of ability to know how far OOG the overlay is from other adjacent pixels. I may have been heavy handed in the brush work.

Oh - brushwork is a last resort. I prefer "natural selection". In the case we're discussing, as I process 99.5% of everything I do in LR, it would be the HSL panel colour groups. When needed, it's usually a "soft touch" on one or perhaps two contiguous groups. And no overlays. It's strictly how the tonal separation, detail and colours contribute to IQ - IMO.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2015, 04:31:13 pm »

Oh - brushwork is a last resort. I prefer "natural selection". In the case we're discussing, as I process 99.5% of everything I do in LR, it would be the HSL panel colour groups. When needed, it's usually a "soft touch" on one or perhaps two contiguous groups. And no overlays. It's strictly how the tonal separation, detail and colours contribute to IQ - IMO.
Can you be more specific? I'm not suggesting brushing away OOG is the best solution (in my mind it clearly isn't).
If I'm to believe that OOG editing is as useless as I do, I have to further test other processes.
Is there a way to accomplish your techniques in Photoshop or only LR?
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 04:50:03 pm »

The same kind of tools exist in PS - as adjustment layers - in this case usually working HSL, and depending on the need, perhaps small subsequent adjustments in Exposure, or Curves. It's slower than just selecting a profile, but it can be helpful periodically. The more usual scenario for me, starting from raw files imported to LR with all settings zeroed, is the need to increase Vibrance and contrast rather than the reverse. But again, depends on the photo - no rules - that's why it's art.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 05:52:05 pm »

The same kind of tools exist in PS - as adjustment layers - in this case usually working HSL...
Hue/Saturation command? Globally? Or you first target a specific color (not master) then move Sat slider down?
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2015, 05:57:18 pm »

Specific.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2015, 06:01:42 pm »

Andrew - the key point here is that if you are editing under soft-proof for your printer/paper combination and a colour group looks "smashed", and you're missing some tonality and detail, that is the virtual visualization of the output profile having done its thing, whether in RelCol or Perceptual as you wish; it is at that point one would resort to manual desaturation etc. to see whether one can improve on tonality and detail while retaining adequate vibrancy.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2015, 06:13:30 pm »

I ended up with four Hue/Sat adjustment layers after targeting with the eyedropper tool the most egregious areas that had an overlay, then reducing saturation until most but not all the OOG overlay disappeared. The other was again just using the profile alone. I don't think it's necessary to label which is which  ;D:



Your technique is much better than using a brush! I didn't go too far as I did in the first example where the magenta blanket in the upper right looks over done. And it was faster. But not as fast as just converting and letting the profile deal with OOG.
I'm going to try this in Lightroom although I did this way back when LR got soft proofing for my video on that subject.
Manually removing OOG just appears to go way too far, reducing saturation too much compared to the profile. Obviously I'd like the widest gamut possible. While the top version looks fine, it's a far lower gamut/saturation than the bottom image using the profile. Might need to compare in ColorThink too.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2015, 06:14:50 pm »

Andrew - the key point here is that if you are editing under soft-proof for your printer/paper combination and a colour group looks "smashed", and you're missing some tonality and detail, that is the virtual visualization of the output profile having done its thing, whether in RelCol or Perceptual as you wish; it is at that point one would resort to manual desaturation etc. to see whether one can improve on tonality and detail while retaining adequate vibrancy.
The smashed look appears to some degree in the converted image due to so many colors being outside display gamut (and I'm using a wide gamut display).
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2015, 06:35:02 pm »

Your technique is much better than using a brush! I didn't go too far as I did in the first example where the magenta blanket in the upper right looks over done. And it was faster. But not as fast as just converting and letting the profile deal with OOG.
.................
Manually removing OOG just appears to go way too far, reducing saturation too much compared to the profile. Obviously I'd like the widest gamut possible. While the top version looks fine, it's a far lower gamut/saturation than the bottom image using the profile. .............

If just using the profile preserves tonality and detail without sacrificing vibrancy that's the way to go. But if you're in a situation where you can't get all three so easily, that's where the tinkering and balancing becomes useful. As I said, not something I need to do habitually.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

D Fosse

  • Guest
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2015, 05:50:26 am »

A general hue/sat color range adjustment always takes too much, because it works over the entire tonal range. OOG is usually confined to either the low or high end, and that's all you need to target.

There is a simple way to identify and select out of gamut areas: Make a copy, convert, and look at individual channels. Solid black or solid white is out of gamut, and easily selected using Color Range. Make a mask and drag it back to the original image.

A quick and dirty way is to use a Channel Mixer layer on these selected areas, and lower the opacity as needed to bring it into gamut. It usually works surprisingly well.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2015, 09:55:02 am »

There is a simple way to identify and select out of gamut areas: Make a copy, convert, and look at individual channels. Solid black or solid white is out of gamut, and easily selected using Color Range. Make a mask and drag it back to the original image.
To be clear, I'm not really interested in detecting OOG although your technique sounds interesting. My goal is to see if attempting any manual adjustment rather than letting the profile do it's job produces a better print.
Quote
A quick and dirty way is to use a Channel Mixer layer on these selected areas, and lower the opacity as needed to bring it into gamut. It usually works surprisingly well.
Now that sounds interesting and I'll give that a try with the above technique and report back, thanks.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

D Fosse

  • Guest
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2015, 10:55:51 am »

Understood, and agreed. I usually don't find it worth the trouble to do this manually, and normally I just let the profile do its thing.

But occasionally, for important images, it's worth it, just for the sheer kick of being fanatically perfectionist...sometimes that can be fun  ;D
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: What changes do you usually make when Softproofing?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2015, 01:42:52 pm »

There is a simple way to identify and select out of gamut areas: Make a copy, convert, and look at individual channels. Solid black or solid white is out of gamut, and easily selected using Color Range. Make a mask and drag it back to the original image.
Question to make sure I understand the steps.
Converted to output color space, that much is clear.
Set Channels to show B&W (not color). So far so good.
Color Range on individual color channels has an option to select shadows or highlights, not black or white. I assume that's what you're referring to?
If that's the case, it appears I'll end up with 6 masks (one for shadow/black, one for highlight/white for each of the three channels)?
I'm not clear on why shadow/black, and highlight/white solely contain OOG colors.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up