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Author Topic: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade  (Read 12811 times)

Ray

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As an owner of the previous Nikon D7100 with the same megapixels and format, I'm wondering whether I should spend the money to upgrade to the D7200.

The D7100 was partially a disappointment for me, as a result of the noticeable banding in the deep shadows. I still don't know if this is a flaw that only applies to certain production batches of the camera.
Some people claim that their particular copy of the D7100 doesn't exhibit banding in the shadows, but one wonders if such people are just not in the habit of raising the deep shadows from RAW images. Perhaps they shoot jpeg where the deepest shadows tend to become black.

The DXOMark results for the D7200 show a useful and noticeable increase in DR, at base ISO, of 0.87 EV, compared with the D7100. At ISO 200 it's only a 1/3rd stop advantage, hardly significant.

However, from anecdotal evidence it seems that the D7200 does not exhibit the banding that's apparent in many D7100 shots. A full 2/3rds of a stop better DR, at least, plus a freedom from that bloody banding, might justify the upgrade.

Any useful insights would be appreciated.
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kers

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2015, 04:42:40 am »

A review here:

https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-d7200

It seems the autofocus is very good. I agree with a lot that a replacement of the D300 would be a good thing. Most of the full frame lenses have 70+ megapixel capacity in the DX centerpart.
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 07:39:27 am »

Thanks for the link, but I don't see any mention of the increased DR with no banding,  compared to the D7100. The improvements mentioned seem to relate only video, timelapse, and a larger buffer.
The 0.87 EV increase in DR at base ISO, according to DXOMark's measurements, should also have the effect of making the D7200 more of a true ISO-less camera.
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Jack Hogan

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 12:57:36 pm »

The DXOMark results for the D7200 show a useful and noticeable increase in DR, at base ISO, of 0.87 EV, compared with the D7100. At ISO 200 it's only a 1/3rd stop advantage, hardly significant.

However, from anecdotal evidence it seems that the D7200 does not exhibit the banding that's apparent in many D7100 shots. A full 2/3rds of a stop better DR, at least, plus a freedom from that bloody banding, might justify the upgrade.

Ray,

I think the D7200 sports the best APS-C sensor in town, truly outstanding.   Be aware that after having played with D7200 and D7100 captures collected by Bill Claff we came to the conclusion that the DxO result for the D7100 at ISO100 was most likely an outlier (thread here).  It looks like the D7200's DR is a few tens of a stop better than the D7100 at base ISO.  Here is the data:



Labels should be self explanatory, last two columns should be directly comparable to Bill Claff's PDR and DxO's 'Print' DR.  Green channels are more accurate.  Note sub 2e- read noise at base ISO. Outstanding.

Jack
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 01:17:14 pm by Jack Hogan »
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dwswager

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2015, 02:18:02 pm »

As an owner of the previous Nikon D7100 with the same megapixels and format, I'm wondering whether I should spend the money to upgrade to the D7200.

The D7100 was partially a disappointment for me, as a result of the noticeable banding in the deep shadows. I still don't know if this is a flaw that only applies to certain production batches of the camera.
Some people claim that their particular copy of the D7100 doesn't exhibit banding in the shadows, but one wonders if such people are just not in the habit of raising the deep shadows from RAW images. Perhaps they shoot jpeg where the deepest shadows tend to become black.

The DXOMark results for the D7200 show a useful and noticeable increase in DR, at base ISO, of 0.87 EV, compared with the D7100. At ISO 200 it's only a 1/3rd stop advantage, hardly significant.

However, from anecdotal evidence it seems that the D7200 does not exhibit the banding that's apparent in many D7100 shots. A full 2/3rds of a stop better DR, at least, plus a freedom from that bloody banding, might justify the upgrade.

Any useful insights would be appreciated.


I've been a reasably long term shooter of the D7100 having 'Side Graded' from the D300.  I don't seem to have the shadow banding problem.  I also shoot the D810 FX so I know the sensor envy game.

My suggestion would be to wait just a little longer.  To my knowledge, Sony released a new 24MP APS-C sensor that is rumored for a Nikon Professional level DSLR.  Supposing that is true, you would end up with a camera with a little better sensor than the 7200, much more buffer and higher frame rate in a stronger, weather sealed button interface body.  Basically, the D300 upgrade about 5 years late!
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 10:34:42 pm »

Ray,

I think the D7200 sports the best APS-C sensor in town, truly outstanding.   Be aware that after having played with D7200 and D7100 captures collected by Bill Claff we came to the conclusion that the DxO result for the D7100 at ISO100 was most likely an outlier (thread here).  It looks like the D7200's DR is a few tens of a stop better than the D7100 at base ISO.  Here is the data:
Jack


Thanks for the data, Jack. I've never come across an instance of DXOMark's noise results being inaccurate to a degree which falls outside of the normal 'margin of error' range.
If they report a DR improvement of 0.87 EV, and one finds when doing one's own tests with the relevant models of cameras, that the improvement is only 2/3rds of a stop, or even 1/2 a stop, then one could attribute such variance to QC issues coupled with the inherent inaccuracies of any testing procedure.

However, if the variance is close to 2/3rds of a stop of DR, as your data suggests, that implies a serious error. Is DXO addressing this issue?

The other issue is banding. There's no doubt that my copy of the D7100 exhibits this problem, as well as Dpreview's copy. Refer next post.
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 10:46:17 pm »

I've been a reasably long term shooter of the D7100 having 'Side Graded' from the D300.  I don't seem to have the shadow banding problem.  I also shoot the D810 FX so I know the sensor envy game.

My suggestion would be to wait just a little longer.  To my knowledge, Sony released a new 24MP APS-C sensor that is rumored for a Nikon Professional level DSLR.  Supposing that is true, you would end up with a camera with a little better sensor than the 7200, much more buffer and higher frame rate in a stronger, weather sealed button interface body.  Basically, the D300 upgrade about 5 years late!

It's only when raising  the deepest shadows that the banding from the D7100 is sometimes apparent. It seems that the particular copy of the D7100 that Dpreview used for its tests also shows such banding, as seen below in a comparison of 6-stops underexposures at ISO 100. I downloaded the RAW images from Dpreview and converted them using the same settings. Here's the link which allows you to compare a number of cameras.  http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/7

I get the impression that such banding is normal for this Toshiba sensor that Nikon used in the D7100. However, that doesn't mean that such banding is necessarily a problem. I have only a few images in which the banding is obvious and objectionable, and in some instances I probably could have avoided such banding by simply using fill-in flash (although I'm not sure it would have been wise to startle a donkey carrying a heavy load of chickens  along a mountain track in Nepal   ;)  ).

Flash can also create its own unwanted problems, such as dark shadows surrounding the subject, and unnaturally bright objects in the close foreground. Also, sometimes flash is too intrusive in the circumstances, and of course the flash range is always limited and exposure bracketing might not be suitable in the circumstances.
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 11:11:54 pm »

Here's a 100% crop showing a moderate amount of banding. Shot taken in Nepal.

A D7200 with just a half stop improvement in DR coupled with a complete lack of banding, would be a worthwhile improvement.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 04:59:40 am »

Here's a 100% crop showing a moderate amount of banding. Shot taken in Nepal.

A D7200 with just a half stop improvement in DR coupled with a complete lack of banding, would be a worthwhile improvement.

Hi Ray,

Topaz Denoise will almost completely remove the banding with it's Horizontal debanding switched on ..., and of course the amount of denoising and detail recovery can be seasoned to taste.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 07:24:56 am »

Hi Ray,

Topaz Denoise will almost completely remove the banding with it's Horizontal debanding switched on ..., and of course the amount of denoising and detail recovery can be seasoned to taste.

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart,
I've downloaded the trial version of Topaz Denoise but I'm unable to remove the banding, at its worst, in the Dpreview image; that is, the banding between the three bottles, although I can see that less severe banding  is successfully reduced elsewhere in the image.

Can you show me if it's possible to remove that severe banding in the area of the 3 bottles, using Topz Denoise?

The other issue is that any noise reduction tends to reduce detail to some extent. A combination of 3/4ths of a stop of improved DR plus a lack of banding seems an attractive proposition to me. However, if the real improvement in DR, of the D7200, is only 1/4th of a stop, compared with the D7100, then that might be a deal-breaker.
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dwswager

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2015, 12:38:03 pm »

It's only when raising  the deepest shadows that the banding from the D7100 is sometimes apparent. It seems that the particular copy of the D7100 that Dpreview used for its tests also shows such banding, as seen below in a comparison of 6-stops underexposures at ISO 100. I downloaded the RAW images from Dpreview and converted them using the same settings. Here's the link which allows you to compare a number of cameras.  http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/7

One of the reasons I never shoot the D7100 with significant underexposure like I will when shooting night sports with the D810.  I usually shoot -2 stops to keep the ISO from climbing and pull the shadows pretty hard, though there are still deep shadows left in a night a lot  of night shots.

I don't necessarily defend the 24MP D7100, but I have to say for the $1100 I paid for it new a couple years ago, it was a bargain.  Especially compared to the $2500 I paid for the 12MP D300 5 years prior.

+1 on Topaz Denoise and Topaz Detail.  I am just playing with Topaz Clarity.
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2015, 09:11:52 pm »

One of the reasons I never shoot the D7100 with significant underexposure like I will when shooting night sports with the D810.  I usually shoot -2 stops to keep the ISO from climbing and pull the shadows pretty hard, though there are still deep shadows left in a night a lot  of night shots.


This is another factor which is not discussed much, the benefits of an ISO-less camera. I used  Canon cameras for many years and one of the first things I had to grapple with was the necessity of getting an ETTR exposure in relation to the best choice of ISO, in order to achieve the minimum noise. In other words, whatever the ISO setting, within a certain range, such as ISO 100 to 1600 or 3200) an underexposure resulted in more noise than the same exposure used at a higher ISO.

One of the great attractions of my first Nikon DX camera, the D7000, was the freedom from this concern about choosing the best ISO for the lowest noise. I could shoot in manual mode and spend more time choosing an appropriate aperture and shutter speed for the circumstances, with less concern about under or overexposure.

Unfortunately, The D7100 seems to have gone backwards in this regard. It's less of a true ISO-less camera than the D7000 was.

For example, if one underexposes 4 stops at ISO 100, with the D7000, instead of using the same exposure at ISO 1600, one looses only about 1/4th of a stop of DR, which is not significant and is worth the benefit of being certain of retaining full highlight detail in the brightest areas.

If one underexposes 4 stops with the D7100 at base ISO, instead of using ISO 1600, one loses a whole stop of DR, which is significant. However, to be fair, most of that loss occurs between ISO 100 and 200, about 2/3rds of it.
If one wishes to use the D7100 as an ISO-less camera, then it would be advisable to use ISO 200 as the base ISO.

Now, according to DXOMark's test results, the D7200 has returned to the status of being a true ISO-less camera. If one underexposes 4 stops at ISO 100 instead of using the same exposure at ISO 1600, one loses a very insignificant DR of only 0.14 EV.

I sure hope that DXO's figures are correct. It makes sense to me that Nikon would have been aware of the deficiencies of the D7100 with respect to banding and a flattening of the linear DR graph between ISO 100 and 200. Is it not reasonable to expect that Nikon would at the very least fix such problems in their next upgrade, the D7200, especially considering that the much earlier D7000 didn't have such problems?
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dwswager

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2015, 09:55:29 pm »

As an owner of the previous Nikon D7100 with the same megapixels and format, I'm wondering whether I should spend the money to upgrade to the D7200.


I'm now in somewhat of the same boat.  Having a little bit of sellers remorse as I sold my 2 year old D7100 and a 18-200mm VRII lens for $1200.  Now wondering whether to look at the D7200 or wait and hope and pray Nikon wakes up and issues a Pro Body DX camera in the next year.

***ADDED***

One thing I will complement Nikon for is that the D7200 body is basically identical to the D7100.  Noticed that the Really Right Stuff BD7100-L is listed as the correct L plate for a D7200.  Keeping the body configuration should be a loose constraint for camera upgrades. Not only body, but control and menu layouts.  It isn't always possible, but is should be a goal.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 11:22:50 am by dwswager »
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 10:17:23 pm »

I'm now in somewhat of the same boat.  Having a little bit of sellers remorse as I sold my 2 year old D7100 and a 18-200mm VRII lens for $1200.  Now wondering whether to look at the D7200 or wait and hope and pray Nikon wakes up and issues a Pro Body DX camera in the next year.

***ADDED***

One thing I will complement Nikon for is that the D7200 body is basically identical to the D7100.  Noticed that the Really Right Stuff BD7100-L is listed as the correct L plate for a D7200.  Keeping the body configuration should be a loose constraint for camera upgrades. Not only body, but control and menu layouts.  It isn't always possible, but is should be a goal.

Having already sold your D7100 for what appears to be a good price, it would seem that replacing it with a D7200 is a no-brainer. 24 megapixels is a worthwhile resolution improvement on the 16mp of the D800 (or D810) in DX mode.

What I find surprising is that the D7200 pixel, despite being smaller than the D810 pixel, has a better DR by a significant 1/2 a stop, from ISO 100 to 800, and only about 1 dB worse SNR at 18%, which is not significant.

However, if you do decide to get a D7200, it'll be a pity that you don't still have your D7100 to make comparisons regarding shadow noise, to see if those DXOMark results really are correct.  ;)
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dwswager

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 07:28:02 pm »

Having already sold your D7100 for what appears to be a good price, it would seem that replacing it with a D7200 is a no-brainer. 24 megapixels is a worthwhile resolution improvement on the 16mp of the D800 (or D810) in DX mode.

What I find surprising is that the D7200 pixel, despite being smaller than the D810 pixel, has a better DR by a significant 1/2 a stop, from ISO 100 to 800, and only about 1 dB worse SNR at 18%, which is not significant.

However, if you do decide to get a D7200, it'll be a pity that you don't still have your D7100 to make comparisons regarding shadow noise, to see if those DXOMark results really are correct.  ;)

What's holding me back is the enthusiast body type.  Not only is the interface different to than the D810, but some accessories too like the remote release!  I'm sitting on the sidelines looking for an eventual deal on the D7200 hoping there is a 8fps 24MP DX pro body camera in the works.  A guy can dream! :)
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Ray

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 06:03:33 am »

What's holding me back is the almost inevitable Nikon response to Canon's 50mp 5DSR.

A Nikon FX DSLR using D7200 pixels would be 54mp. What a camera that would be ! Wow! Irresistible!  ;D
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dwswager

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Re: The significance of the latest Nikon D7200 cropped-format upgrade
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 11:15:47 am »

What's holding me back is the almost inevitable Nikon response to Canon's 50mp 5DSR.

A Nikon FX DSLR using D7200 pixels would be 54mp. What a camera that would be ! Wow! Irresistible!  ;D

Yeah, you would expect to see something like that given Sony already is planning a 50MP. 

Since I bought the D810, I thought I would go back to full frame, but this year I've been packing both the D810 and D7100 for sports and it is incredibly handy having not only 2 bodies, but 2 formats.  The DX crop of the 7200 makes it my long lens preference while the D810 was for candids and closeups.  If I could get the same night performance out of the DX sensors, that would be heaven!
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