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Author Topic: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download  (Read 4880 times)

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« on: May 03, 2015, 09:36:35 am »

Go here to get them.

Dave
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bernie west

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2015, 10:17:20 am »

Where can I download the camera?...

;)
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 12:35:24 pm »

Where can I download the camera?...

;)

Dunno, but I would wait until it's been out for about 6 to 8 month or so and the initial release price has dropped a little, and also all the early adopters have had a chance to identify all the major bugs and get them ironed out for us :D

Dave
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 05:14:34 am »

DPreview has also published they studio comparison images.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d810&attr13_2=pentax_645z&attr13_3=phaseone_iq180&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=64&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=35&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.7053891272684328&y=0.693056206088993

Overall I see very little resolution advantage compared to the D810 in these images. Now, the D810 raw converted image is a lot softer than what can be obtained with a top quality lens and top quality conversion, so I am sure that the 5Ds conversions are not optimal either. The gap may be larger than shown here with Otus class lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 05:36:02 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 08:03:20 am »

Overall I see very little resolution advantage compared to the D810 in these images.

I see more resolution and less aliasing, e.g. on the horizontal hyperbolic wedge lines from the 5DS R (so with Low-Pass cancellation).

I'm sure that a competent Raw converter and proper deconvolution sharpening will make a small(?) but significant difference. Of course good lenses and technique (focus / stabilisation) and processing will be even more important if one attempts to get the best results. Imaging-Resources has some Raws available again, including ISO 50, and different apertures.

Quote
The gap may be larger than shown here with Otus class lenses.

It won't hurt, that much is sure ...

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 08:05:36 am by BartvanderWolf »
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shadowblade

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 10:48:51 am »

I just want to see what sort of dynamic range the production model has.

50MP would be fantastic, but not at the expense of dynamic range. If it doesn't deliver, I'll wait for the Sony and keep on using adapters for the next three years, until Canon delivers.
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bernie west

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 10:54:23 am »

I'm waiting for the D890 with the 370Mpx sensor.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 10:55:26 am »

I just want to see what sort of dynamic range the production model has.

As has been said before, similar to the 5D Mark III and 7D Mark II, but with the bonus of being able to down-sample more (or upsample less), and with less pattern noise and moiré. Color looks pretty good, but more samples (different profiles and Raw converters) are needed for a proper judgement of that.

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50MP would be fantastic, but not at the expense of dynamic range. If it doesn't deliver, I'll wait for the Sony and keep on using adapters for the next three years, until Canon delivers.

It's not at the expense of DR, compared to other Canon models. It is, as it already was, less than from a Sony sensor of late.

Cheers,
Bart
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shadowblade

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2015, 03:15:42 am »

As has been said before, similar to the 5D Mark III and 7D Mark II, but with the bonus of being able to down-sample more (or upsample less), and with less pattern noise and moiré. Color looks pretty good, but more samples (different profiles and Raw converters) are needed for a proper judgement of that.

That's not the final production model. Most likely there will be little change, but surprises are always possible.

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It's not at the expense of DR, compared to other Canon models. It is, as it already was, less than from a Sony sensor of late.

It's not competing against other Canon models. It's competing against Sony's and Nikon's offerings.

If it can't match Sony in DR, while Sony matches Canon in resolution later this year, with the ability to use the same lenses, then the Sony remains much more attractive for landscape photography, where AF and other features don't matter.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2015, 03:47:39 am »

That's not the final production model. Most likely there will be little change, but surprises are always possible.

It's not competing against other Canon models. It's competing against Sony's and Nikon's offerings.

Maybe, but it's a bit simplistic to only consider the sensor resolution and DR. And the 5DS/5DS R is aimed at studio use, not landscape use in particular.

Canon have apparently redesigned part of the camera (e.g. mirror mechanism) to have improved camera shake performance. Maybe Sony have learned (at the expense of customer experience) that higher resolution and (in their case 'shutter shock') camera shake performance both need to be addressed at the same time. For studio use, which is the main market that the 5DS and 5DS R seems to focus on, tethering performance is also very important. Accurate color reproduction is another area that Canon say to have paid attention to. Seamless integration of the redesigned lenses, with Autofocus and in some cases Image stabilization, is bound to be better with Canon bodies for Canon lenses. Just to name a few other points of consideration.

The main issue with the 11.3 stop DR of many Canon sensors is/was that the pattern noise made lifting the shadow detail (which has few photons to work with) a less than optimal avenue, but if pattern noise can be controlled better, then good noise reduction in postprocessing becomes very much more usable. For JPEG shooters, there is already an option to shoot HDR bracketed exposures to a single JPEG output. A similar thing has become available for the masses in Lightroom for Raws. This can produce much better shadows than is possible with a single Sony sensor shot, because photon shot noise will be much lower, and Signal to Noise Ratio much higher. De-ghosting methods are getting better, and subject motion in bracketed series of shots is becoming less of an issue.

So Canon chooses a different approach than Sony does. Fine, that will give us a choice.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ghibby

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2015, 04:53:13 am »

I couldn't agree more with you Bart. There has been way to much forum moaning about the assumed dynamic range of the 5Ds and 5dsr. I'm waiting to see some real reviews before I pass judgment.

Looking at the samples over at DP review in Raw. I have had a good look at them in Lightroom CC and they are good. The test scene is way to limited to give us any true indication of DR but the shadow noise is the best I have yet seen from Canon. Granted still not quite as clean as Nikon / Sony but getting much closer and the noise is nice and random. A different beast entirely to the 5Dmk3 and Mk2 especially. The exposures are easily able to handle a 3 or even 4 stop push at ISO 100 before the shadows start looking bad and to be honest if you need to push more than that it's your camera technique you need to be working on, not worrying about DR.

The resolution speaks for itself, very impressive. What is telling though is that while it is clearly resolving more than the Nikon D810 the extra 14mp doesn't bring that much to the table, we certainly are into the laws of diminishing returns at resolutions above 30mp or so. Some moire on the 5dsr samples  for me the 5ds is more attractive as I shoot a lot of architecture. Regarding the option of these I personally prefer the look of images taken on camera with the OLPF and as resolution goes up the strength of these filters diminishes. I don't feel the sharpness gains warrant the extra hassle of inspecting all images of moire and then processing it out for a 5% gain in detail.

I have also found the 5ds raw files are much easier on my computer than anticipated, and much faster to work with than the Nikons, seem to be more responsive, no idea why but have had the same issues on multiple computers in Lightroom over the years.

I can't wait to get my hands on the 5Ds. Almost certain it will find its way into my kit bag soon to relegate my almost 7 year old 5dMk2 to back up status.

Ben
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 05:00:33 am by Ghibby »
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shadowblade

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2015, 10:52:13 am »

I couldn't agree more with you Bart. There has been way to much forum moaning about the assumed dynamic range of the 5Ds and 5dsr. I'm waiting to see some real reviews before I pass judgment.

Looking at the samples over at DP review in Raw. I have had a good look at them in Lightroom CC and they are good. The test scene is way to limited to give us any true indication of DR but the shadow noise is the best I have yet seen from Canon. Granted still not quite as clean as Nikon / Sony but getting much closer and the noise is nice and random. A different beast entirely to the 5Dmk3 and Mk2 especially. The exposures are easily able to handle a 3 or even 4 stop push at ISO 100 before the shadows start looking bad and to be honest if you need to push more than that it's your camera technique you need to be working on, not worrying about DR.

If you don't need to push more than that, then you're probably quite limited in the landscapes you take. Filters and exposure blending can't be applied in all situations.

Quote
The resolution speaks for itself, very impressive. What is telling though is that while it is clearly resolving more than the Nikon D810 the extra 14mp doesn't bring that much to the table, we certainly are into the laws of diminishing returns at resolutions above 30mp or so. Some moire on the 5dsr samples  for me the 5ds is more attractive as I shoot a lot of architecture. Regarding the option of these I personally prefer the look of images taken on camera with the OLPF and as resolution goes up the strength of these filters diminishes. I don't feel the sharpness gains warrant the extra hassle of inspecting all images of moire and then processing it out for a 5% gain in detail.

I have also found the 5ds raw files are much easier on my computer than anticipated, and much faster to work with than the Nikons, seem to be more responsive, no idea why but have had the same issues on multiple computers in Lightroom over the years.

I can't wait to get my hands on the 5Ds. Almost certain it will find its way into my kit bag soon to relegate my almost 7 year old 5dMk2 to back up status.

Ben

Apparently Canon's managed to put a much higher DR sensor into the 5D4 and 1Dx2. It's rumoured to use the same dual-ISO-readout technology as the C300 Mk II video camera. If true, the 5Ds will be the last of Canon's top-of-the-line cameras to use their old, low-DR technology - yet, out of the 5Ds (studio/landscape/low ISO), 5D4 (general-purpose) and 1Dx2 (high-speed action) it is probably the one that needs it most.
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Ghibby

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2015, 03:15:23 pm »

If you don't need to push more than that, then you're probably quite limited in the landscapes you take. Filters and exposure blending can't be applied in all situations.

Not at all, but the difference in DR from Nikon to Canon is only about 2 to 2.5 stops at base ISO, diminishing to near equality as you get to ISO 800. For extreme exposures and optimum quality both will need either filters or exposure blending. I'm not arguing that the canon is as good, clearly Nikon has the edge in this regard but I do believe too much fuss is made of the canons shortcomings which in real world practice simply do not add up to a massive difference in image quality. The usability of the system and personal preference of the photographer are more important in my opinion. The 5ds is going to be a superb landscape, architectural and of course studio camera.

Ben
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shadowblade

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Re: 5Ds and 5Dsr manuals now available for download
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2015, 08:28:44 pm »

Not at all, but the difference in DR from Nikon to Canon is only about 2 to 2.5 stops at base ISO, diminishing to near equality as you get to ISO 800. For extreme exposures and optimum quality both will need either filters or exposure blending. I'm not arguing that the canon is as good, clearly Nikon has the edge in this regard but I do believe too much fuss is made of the canons shortcomings which in real world practice simply do not add up to a massive difference in image quality. The usability of the system and personal preference of the photographer are more important in my opinion. The 5ds is going to be a superb landscape, architectural and of course studio camera.

Ben

It's the difference between a 2-3 stop ND grad and not need a ND grad at all.

Often, that's all the filter you need. But, when you can't use it (e.g. uneven horizon, trees/mountains/buildings protruding through the horizon or extreme wide-angle making the corner vignetting significant) the extra 2-3 stops of DR is a huge difference.
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