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Author Topic: Color gamut of an Epson 3880  (Read 18380 times)

JayWPage

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Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« on: May 02, 2015, 01:33:33 am »

I am curious as to how the color gamut of my printer, the Epson 3880 compares to the color space of sRGB and Adobe RGB? I usually convert to Adobe RGB before printing but I really don't know if the gamut of this printer fits snugly within Adobe RGB or is it much smaller/inferior in some colors. I think this would be useful to know. Also how much will the gamut be affected by the type of paper printed on?

Thanks
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2015, 02:49:47 am »

Hi,

Something like below on glossy paper.

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2015, 03:02:48 am »

Hi,

Matte papers have a smaller gamut see below. Smooth -> matte paper and wireframe ->glossy paper.

Best regards
Erik
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2015, 10:02:39 am »

I am curious as to how the color gamut of my printer, the Epson 3880 compares to the color space of sRGB and Adobe RGB? I usually convert to Adobe RGB before printing but I really don't know if the gamut of this printer fits snugly within Adobe RGB or is it much smaller/inferior in some colors. I think this would be useful to know. Also how much will the gamut be affected by the type of paper printed on?

Thanks

As Erik shows, the fit is not "snug" because gamut shapes differ between device profiles and between those and colour working spaces. The 3880 is quite a wide-gamut printer. It is normally recommended that you work in ProPhoto RGB to be certain that all the colour the printer and your paper can reproduce will be available for it in your image file. The available gamut depends VERY heavily on the kind of paper you are using. On my Epson 4900 the gamut of a high quality luster paper exceeds that of any matte paper I've ever tested by a very large margin. If you want wide gamut use gloss or luster papers with Photo Black ink.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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hugowolf

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2015, 10:08:08 am »

...I usually convert to Adobe RGB before printing

What? Why would you convert from one space to another before printing?

Brian A
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2015, 10:13:14 am »

Brian's question is well-taken. If the image file had been shrunk to sRGB in the first place and you do not have the raw file, you won't get more gamut converting it to another colour space.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2015, 11:03:32 am »

I am curious as to how the color gamut of my printer, the Epson 3880 compares to the color space of sRGB and Adobe RGB? I usually convert to Adobe RGB before printing but I really don't know if the gamut of this printer fits snugly within Adobe RGB or is it much smaller/inferior in some colors. I think this would be useful to know. Also how much will the gamut be affected by the type of paper printed on?
Neither working space is large enough for output to this printer! So here's how you can test this and see the results, ink on paper:

The benefits of wide gamut working spaces on printed output

This three part, 32 minute video covers why a wide gamut RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB can produce superior quality output to print.

Part 1 discusses how the supplied Gamut Test File was created and shows two prints output to an Epson 3880 using ProPhoto RGB and sRGB, how the deficiencies of sRGB gamut affects final output quality. Part 1 discusses what to look for on your own prints in terms of better color output. It also covers Photoshop’s Assign Profile command and how wide gamut spaces mishandled produce dull or over saturated colors due to user error.

Part 2 goes into detail about how to print two versions of the properly converted Gamut Test File  file in Photoshop using Photoshop’s Print command to correctly setup the test files for output. It covers the Convert to Profile command for preparing test files for output to a lab.

Part 3 goes into color theory and illustrates why a wide gamut space produces not only move vibrant and saturated color but detail and color separation compared to a small gamut working space like sRGB.

High Resolution Video: http://digitaldog.net/files/WideGamutPrintVideo.mov
Low Resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLlr7wpAZKs&feature=youtu.be


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Mark D Segal

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2015, 11:21:10 am »

Hi Andrew, I've watched this video previously and I think it is definitive.

I have, however, one directly relevant question for you related to the points above about where one starts with working spaces. I suspect the OP may be using photos that are now in "raw" format, but already converted to sRGB either in his camera or application. In this situation is it not the case that having lost all that gamut between raw and sRGB, his options are limited and he will not get any gamut benefit trying to convert a baked sRGB file into a wider colour space?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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JayWPage

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2015, 11:33:25 am »

What? Why would you convert from one space to another before printing?
Brian A

I usually open my raw files in ProPhoto RGb in ACR and continue working in this color space until I am finished doing whatever i think is necessary. Then I create a printing file with whatever size, output sharpening, etc. and I then convert to Adobe RGB so that I can see which conversion looks best (perceptual or RC) and to see if there are any out of gamut colors.

I always take both raw and jpeg images, but the jpegs are just to allow for easy editing or maybe to email to someone while traveling, I never work with them.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2015, 11:37:29 am »

I usually open my raw files in ProPhoto RGb in ACR and continue working in this color space until I am finished doing whatever i think is necessary. Then I create a printing file with whatever size, output sharpening, etc. and I then convert to Adobe RGB so that I can see which conversion looks best (perceptual or RC) and to see if there are any out of gamut colors.

I always take both raw and jpeg images, but the jpegs are just to allow for easy editing or maybe to email to someone while traveling, I never work with them.

In this case I recommend that you stick with the ProPhoto space right through from ingestion to Print. Forget about RGB(98).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jrsforums

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2015, 11:38:11 am »

I believe all color space conversions are made in RC....no matter what you select.
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JayWPage

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2015, 11:49:05 am »

I can see from Erik's plots that I am loosing some of the blue green area by converting, so I will be better off staying in ProPhoto RGB.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "I believe all color space conversions are made in RC", can you explain.
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digitaldog

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2015, 12:04:08 pm »

Hi Andrew, I've watched this video previously and I think it is definitive.
Thanks.
Quote
I have, however, one directly relevant question for you related to the points above about where one starts with working spaces. I suspect the OP may be using photos that are now in "raw" format, but already converted to sRGB either in his camera or application.

I was just hoping to answer the initial question without regard to the workflow. It appears that since that post, the OP has written he works in ProPhoto RGB then converts to Adobe RGB for print. We both agree that's pointless.

As to the other questions about rendering intents with the supplied working space profiles. All conversions using simple matrix working space profiles, those found in Photoshop use RelCol for conversions. There is no perceptual table in those installed working space profiles. You can pick Perceptual in Photoshop, you'll get RelCol.
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JayWPage

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2015, 03:00:45 pm »

So what you are telling me is that if my image is in ProPhoto RGB and I print having PS manage the colors, that regardless whether I choose perceptual or RC, the colours outside the Epson 3880 (or whatever printer you have) gamut will be clipped to the nearest printable color that the printer is capable of printing on that particular paper?

I had thought that gamut compression using perceptual conversion was done through some sort of vector calculation. What role does the paper profile have in determining where the colors are clipped? I print through ImagePrint V9, it's been my impression that when I select a perceptual rendering intent in ImagePrint that it was perceptual, not RC.
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digitaldog

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2015, 03:04:03 pm »

So what you are telling me is that if my image is in ProPhoto RGB and I print having PS manage the colors, that regardless whether I choose perceptual or RC, the colours outside the Epson 3880 (or whatever printer you have) gamut will be clipped to the nearest printable color that the printer is capable of printing on that particular paper?
RGB working space to working space (matrix profiles) always uses RelCol. ProPhoto RGB to a printer profile can use any of the three tables that exist in that printer profile.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2015, 04:42:03 pm »

So what you are telling me is that if my image is in ProPhoto RGB and I print ..... regardless whether I choose perceptual or RC, the colours outside the Epson 3880 (or whatever printer you have) gamut will be clipped to the nearest printable color that the printer is capable of printing on that particular paper?
Think about what you've written a little. How could a printer not clip what it can't print ?
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JayWPage

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2015, 07:30:03 pm »

How could a printer not clip what it can't print ?

The subject is about how out of gamut colors from a large color space (ProPhoto RGB) are converted to a smaller color space (that of the Epson 3880). The question is are they clipped to the edge of the Epson 3880 color space (relative colorimetric) or are they scaled to some relative color within the Epson space (perceptual).
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digitaldog

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2015, 08:06:04 pm »

The question is are they clipped to the edge of the Epson 3880 color space (relative colorimetric) or are they scaled to some relative color within the Epson space (perceptual).
Either, depending on what you select in the app doing the printing. If you have no control, it's probably Perceptual but that can be set when the profile is built.
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hugowolf

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2015, 11:17:28 pm »

The subject is about how out of gamut colors from a large color space (ProPhoto RGB) are converted to a smaller color space (that of the Epson 3880). The question is are they clipped to the edge of the Epson 3880 color space (relative colorimetric) or are they scaled to some relative color within the Epson space (perceptual).
u

Although the out--of-gamut mapping in both Lr and Ps isn't that accurate, it still gives you some chance of deciding what intent to chose. If there are no out-of-gamut colors in the image, then relative colorimetric would be the first choice. If there are out-of-gamut colors in large areas of the image, then you can make a decision on whether to use perceptual or relative colorimetric.

In either case, you may find one intent more pleasing than the other. There is nothing set in stone about artistic choice.

Brian A
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MirekElsner

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Re: Color gamut of an Epson 3880
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2015, 09:33:42 pm »

So what you are telling me is that if my image is in ProPhoto RGB and I print having PS manage the colors, that regardless whether I choose perceptual or RC, the colours outside the Epson 3880 (or whatever printer you have) gamut will be clipped to the nearest printable color that the printer is capable of printing on that particular paper?


Here is what happens. The first chart is a plot of all colors in the attached image of my daughter in ProPhoto RGB. The second chart shows shows the colors after the image was converted to sRGB (uses Relative Colorimetric). The third was converted from ProPhoto to the color space of Epson 3880 with a glossy paper using Perceptual intent.

The triangles in the charts represent sRGB and ProPhoto RGB.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 09:36:07 pm by MirekElsner »
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