Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: MattBeardsley on March 01, 2011, 02:12:32 am
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Hello LL!
I've spent a little time with the Leica S2 now and have had a great time. It's an easy camera to shoot, and delivers great image quality (reminds me more of a Leaf back look than a Hasselblad). Do you guys think the big Leica is gaining popularity?
Take a look at the first part of the review. Let me know if you catch any errors!
http://photoartsmonthly.com/blog/2011/02/28/introduction-the-leica-s2/
Thanks!
Matt
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Hi Matt,
thats a nice review and I am looking forward to PartII.
To answer your question: Personally I believe the big Leica (S2) is gaining popularity. What We see in forums, what I hear from the local Leica dealer and also from Leica directly sales numbers of S2 do look pretty good.
And this even though the central shutter lenses are not yet available (which should make some proferssionals wait/reisist)
I dont know how unprecise the S2-A4 was in the beginning, and how much has been improved with firmware (boda and lenses), and how much sample variation we see. However my S2 focuses very precise with my 70mm lens (still waiting forthe 120)-the AF is indeed better than I had hoped for. And I know some other people who also do not have AF problems. So the improved AF might be another reason that now more people stepping into the S2 system.
What I ask myself is: the sensor not being all that much bigger than 24x36, but still a bit smaller than 645 - do the lenses really have to be that big?
On the other side I rather have big lenses than making optical compromises. I love to shoot every f-stop including wide open and not have to worry about IQ.
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I had the same opinion 6 months ago.
Now I think different.
1) I believe Leica sells more units than planned and it is not a prestige project but a project they will make money
2) I also believethe S2 is more of an dentist camera than the Phase/Lef/Hassys (just my opinion)
3) I would have liked an R-solution. But going the S-solution Leica avoided to have to compete with the Nikon/Canon/Sony - not only function but also price wise. I also question how good manual focus with a DSLR ff viewfinder works for high resolution. Even with the S2 I find AF to be more accurate than my eyes. So in a longer term Leica would have to supply AF lenses anyways- and here they would have to go a long long way to compete vs Nikon and Canon AF lens product range. Going a new format in between is like a niche where they can justify a high price much better than for a ff DSLR.
With the S2 they have several competitive factors. Lens optical quality (even wide open very good). Form factor. Speed. AF (which is very precise for a MF camera). Weather seeling. (Of course there are things the S2 cant do: Tech camera maybe the most important)
Now I think it was a smart move from Leica. However it would work only if the system works as promised. Here I had some doubts first but as of today my trust in the reliability and function of the system has increased a lot.
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The S2 is a superb camera, I'd like to see that pureness design in any dslr actually, it delivers superb image quality and certainly will tempted some photographers...BUT
Having said that, the S2 IMO is a vast failure for Leica.
[...]
I might be wrong anyway, I hope I'm wrong.
You don't have to hope, here's the evidence: from Leica's latest financial report (http://www.corporate.leica-camera.com/investor_relations/annual_reports/2011/index.html):
Leica Camera Group closed the third quarter of the current 2010/2011 fiscal year [...] a 73.2 % increase as compared to the same period in the previous fiscal year. The Company thus registered the best quarterly and nine-months results since its IPO in 1996.
This confirms the course for innovation and growth followed by Leica Camera AG since its successful turnaround – products younger than two years account for 67 % of sales in the current fiscal year.
The increase in sales on the prior year is due to the continuing strong demand registered for all of the Company’s product categories – sales in the Photo product group more than doubled with the Leica M system, the professional S system and the digital Leica compact cameras.
(emphasis mine)
While they don't (have to) report product line sales figures or shares, S2 and I believe lenses were delayed due to unexpectedly high demand. Of course it could be a marketing ploy, but the figures above speak volumes.
There were plenty of armchair CEOs and CTOs on the internets saying S2 will fail miserably and even kill Leica. I always thought it would have a niche but never imagined it being this successful. It's a stunningly built, beautiful product (I've actually played around with one) and the feature set is compelling, but the pricing is outrageous for what it is - but clearly there are plenty of people with the disposable income or a business justification for it who think otherwise.
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I shot the S2 and really enjoyed it. The problem, for me, is that if I had to rely on the S2 on a job, my ulcer would come back. I really don't think Leica is a professional camera company. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed my M8 and my M9, my M4-P and M6, and I've shot all of them on jobs, but in no way is Leica's support or reliability at the level required of a professional product. Maybe support is different with the $4kUSD warranty, maybe the electronics in the S2 are more reliable than those in the M8 and M9. I'm not sure, but I know I won't pay Red Epic money to find out, especially with the proven, confidence inspiring H4d-40 and D3x out there.
That being said, a nice camera.
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Guys,
Thanks for the comments... One thing seems sure, everyone who has shot the S2 has enjoyed shooting the S2! It's unusually quick for a camera with a 45mm-wide sensor and definitely comfortable. I'm anxious to see more rental options as the lenses become more widely available... do you guys know of people who rent these now?
~Matt
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... It's a stunningly built, beautiful product ...
When I had it in my hands for the first time, I felt like crying. No, seriously! In all my years, with all kind of cameras, from p&s to Hasselblads, I've never had before this feeling that it fits my hands like a glove, that it feels like a camera built by and for photographers, pinnacle of simplicity of design and interface. The size and weight... and simply the feel in my hands... just felt right. If I had that kind of money, I would buy it just for the feel of it, all other brainy considerations be damned!
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http://photoartsmonthly.com/blog/2011/02/28/introduction-the-leica-s2/
Thanks for posting the review, Matt. I have to admit I'm biased, I've been a fan of the S2 since the day it was announced. Before the R system was discontinued I was hoping the R10 would be based on the thinking that went into the S2, scaled down to fit R lenses. Once the proposed 350mm APO-S becomes available I'll have a hard time resisting.
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I wonder if they ever considered calling it the R10, at least it would of stopped people wishing for one. If they have no intension of producing a 35 mm DSLR it would of made a bit of sense.
Other than system cost it would fit my needs better than anything else on the market.
Kevin.
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I wonder if they ever considered calling it the R10...
Unlikely. When it was announced they were still planning to make the R10, and it can't use R lenses.
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Kevin,
I totally agree, the S2 is hard to beat for high-resolution hand held and location shooting... I was impressed with the 35mm f2.5 lens as an editorial/environmental portrait lens. Think shooters are holding out for specific glass?
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Other than system cost it would fit my needs better than anything else on the market.
Think shooters are holding out for specific glass?
Speaking only for myself, yup. Aside from no long native lenses yet, I agree with KevinA.
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Dentists... Yesterday my dentist, knowing that i am a pro photographer, asked me whether the Leica M9 was a good camera and that he thought he might buy one, having a pretty large collection of analog Ms and not using them anymore, as he prefered his digital Pentax (Pentax is the real dentist camera, I doubt there is one dentist without a Pentax, they always knew how to cater for dentists' needs).
I had to smile (which is tough with a drill in my mouth)
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Kevin,
I totally agree, the S2 is hard to beat for high-resolution hand held and location shooting... I was impressed with the 35mm f2.5 lens as an editorial/environmental portrait lens. Think shooters are holding out for specific glass?
Not in my case, I am either waiting for an unprecedented upturn in business, lottery win or the death of an unknown filthy rich relative that loved me.
Kevin.
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If you didn't buy the S2 for the camera you would buy it for the glass. These lenses are the best leica have ever made.
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I credit them with recognizing the fact that these same lenses will have to work not just on this year's 40MP S2, but as well on future models with twice the pixel density or more.
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Bigger sensor always wins over better glass. That's what MF is all about and why the Blads, Phamiyas etc can compete with the S2 and win.
Edmund
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Hasselblad 80/2.8 = $2100
Mamiya 80/2.8 = $1290
Leica 70/2.5 = $4495 (or $5995 with leaf shutter)
And these (B&H prices) are just the "cheap" normal lenses. Whatever "Leica magic" I felt 30 years ago is long gone. Today, Leica looks like two big middle fingers to me. And that's their "brand image."
If their bottom line is healthy, I have to imagine it's because they are selling rebadged $500 Panasonics for $2000, $15,000 cameras for $28,000, and $2500 lenses for $5000. Of course you can buy the $15,000 camera for $23,000, but you must pay replacement costs up front to have their middle finger "warranty." The word "warranty" in Leica-speak means /you pay for a second camera up front, and then they'll decide whether you deserve it or not if something breaks/." Platinum my ass.
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Hasselblad 80/2.8 = $2100
Mamiya 80/2.8 = $1290
Leica 70/2.5 = $4495 (or $5995 with leaf shutter)
And these (B&H prices) are just the "cheap" normal lenses. Whatever "Leica magic" I felt 30 years ago is long gone. Today, Leica looks like two big middle fingers to me. And that's their "brand image."
If their bottom line is healthy, I have to imagine it's because they are selling rebadged $500 Panasonics for $2000, $15,000 cameras for $28,000, and $2500 lenses for $5000. Of course you can buy the $15,000 camera for $23,000, but you must pay replacement costs up front to have their middle finger "warranty." The word "warranty" in Leica-speak means /you pay for a second camera up front, and then they'll decide whether you deserve it or not if something breaks/." Platinum my ass.
The world has moved on... fings ain't what they used to be. Unfortunately.
Rob C
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The world has moved on... fings ain't what they used to be. Unfortunately.
:-) I just wish they'd reinvent the compact 35mm-sized camera and create something really useful for pros without the brand mongering or gouging. And I'm sure the S2 would be a lovely $15k camera. But I don't hold out any hope for them if their bottom line is based on cashing in their former brand image at a premium. They remind me of 80s corporate raiders, desperately milking the red dot.
Meanwhile, there are several Japanese manufacturers who are capable of stepping up. Fuji and Kyocera are capable of not just innovation, but real precision manufacturing. We need a new compact pro camera format. I can't walk the streets just anywhere with a heavy D3x/s. I want a hand-held FF camera made for rugged daily use, and I don't want a Leica M with it's damn single focus point.
Whew, what a day...I must be in a bad mood; but the target is deserving.
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Hasselblad 80/2.8 = $2100
Mamiya 80/2.8 = $1290
Leica 70/2.5 = $4495 (or $5995 with leaf shutter)
You get what you pay for. The Leica 70mm is to the other two lenses like the Canon L lenses are to their consumer lenses, maybe even more. No hype, simply a better lens.
I speak from experience but check out the MTF charts for more objective evidence.
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You get what you pay for. The Leica 70mm is to the other two lenses like the Canon L lenses are to their consumer lenses, maybe even more. No hype, simply a better lens.
I speak from experience but check out the MTF charts for more objective evidence.
I believe you that the Leica lenses are high performers. I don't know about the getting what you pay for part. There are times you just pay, and Leica has done much to draw suspicion upon themselves for this. I'll re-evaluate my opinions on the lens issue. But I also have questions. The Leica format is right in between 35mm FF and the H4d. I think this is what I'd call an "economic sweet spot" for Leica.
Hassy 80/2.8 for H4D 40.2x53.7mm = 2158.74 sq mm = 67.08mm
Leica 75/2.5 for S2 30x45mm = 1350 sq mm, diagonal = 54.08mm
Nikon FX ~24x36 = 840 sq mm, diagonal = 43.27mm
This is a big difference in the size of the image circle, and the Hassy has got to be more physical /lens/ with the technical challenges that that entails. So this makes me wonder, how much of the Leica lens is cost.
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Hi,
Leica doesn't have a 400% premium on rebadged Panasonics, more like 70%. That buys you a red dot and other undisclosed features.
Lloyd Chambers have been testing a Hasselblad H4D-50 with two lenses the HC 28/4 and the HC 100/2.8 neither of the two lenses was anywhere near Leica lenses that Lloyd was using at the same time. The HC 28/4 had a centering problem, tough.
One thing that I find a bit ignored is that there is not a single MF digital format. Sensor sizes vary. A physically larger sensor will be beneficial when optimally used (read f/8, on tripod and with MLU). A larger sensor also demands a larger image circle. I very much think that a larger (crop factor 1) sensor will give better image quality than a sensor with a smaller crop factor, specially if pixel pitch is identical.
The way things work, any decently made lens would turn diffraction limited at around f/8. There are of course differences not helped by stopping down like distortion and lens flare, so some lenses may be better than others even at f/8.
Most problems will show up in the corners or at large apertures.
To fully utilize the lens it must be correctly focused. It has been Lloyd's experience that AF would not achieve that and that exact focusing cannot be achieved by eye, in his view live view is essential in order of achieving dead on focus.
To me it seems that the persons having the S2 are quite happy, it is very expensive for sure. If you compare the Nikon D3X with a Canon 5DII or a Sony Alpha 850 there is a price ratio similar to low end MFDBs to high end MFDBs. My impression is that the Nikon D3X is a bit better than either the Canon or the Sony, but if the difference is worth the price is something that only the customers can decide.
Another factor is that an MFDB is more flexible, you can put it on a technical camera and use with top of the line Rodenstock/Schneider Digitar lenses and utilize Scheimpflug. That feature is probably important for many users.
Best regards
Erik
Hasselblad 80/2.8 = $2100
Mamiya 80/2.8 = $1290
Leica 70/2.5 = $4495 (or $5995 with leaf shutter)
And these (B&H prices) are just the "cheap" normal lenses. Whatever "Leica magic" I felt 30 years ago is long gone. Today, Leica looks like two big middle fingers to me. And that's their "brand image."
If their bottom line is healthy, I have to imagine it's because they are selling rebadged $500 Panasonics for $2000, $15,000 cameras for $28,000, and $2500 lenses for $5000. Of course you can buy the $15,000 camera for $23,000, but you must pay replacement costs up front to have their middle finger "warranty." The word "warranty" in Leica-speak means /you pay for a second camera up front, and then they'll decide whether you deserve it or not if something breaks/." Platinum my ass.
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Good points Erik, especially about the relationship between the 5D2 and the D3x. Better camera, by a modest margin, but triple the price.
Interestingly the Red Spot mark up on the DLux5 over the LX5 is less than 10% because the Leica includes a full version of Lightroom which is worth much of the difference in price (assuming you don't already have LR of course!).
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Hi,
I figure this goes under "undisclosed benefits", but I already happen to have LR3.
Actually I'm quite impressed with what I have seen from Leica. Far to expensive for me but I wish them well.
Best regards
Erik
Interestingly the Red Spot mark up on the DLux5 over the LX5 is less than 10% because the Leica includes a full version of Lightroom which is worth much of the in price (assuming you don't already have LR of course!).
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I think one of my targets is the X1, which has no Panasonic equivalent. Two thousand dollars. About the price of a D7000+24-105/4 (or take your pick from f/2.8 primes for less) give or take. [Remember that those Panasonic sister cameras benefit from being "just like a Leica without the red dot" in some people's imagination. I think they do collect a premium for that.]
But hey, the X1 sensor is about as good as the 3.5 year old D300, maybe a little bit better. And I'll bet that f/2.8 lens is pretty good. So let me see, they came in on the low side of the new technology and stepped into NEX-5 performance territory. That body may be worth $500, and the lens $250, give or take a few. Keep in mind that the lens doesn't require a mount, auto diaphragm, or external mating for CPU connections; it isn't very fast, and it doesn't have to cover a very big image circle. The body doesn't require a mirror or reflex finder or lens mount.
This is ridiculously overpriced at $2000.
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Good points Erik, especially about the relationship between the 5D2 and the D3x. Better camera, by a modest margin, but triple the price.
Interestingly the Red Spot mark up on the DLux5 over the LX5 is less than 10% because the Leica includes a full version of Lightroom which is worth much of the difference in price (assuming you don't already have LR of course!).
I don't think the margin is is even close between the 5DII and D3x. The D3s tells you what you're going to pay for a professional body on a par with the 1DsIII, and I hope nobody will compare the 5DII to that. And the core IQ isn't even close. Granted, the refurb price I got on the D3x was about the limit of what I was going to pay for it, but $1200 over the price of a D3s is less painful. Nikon messed that one up a bit, but I'm not here to defend them. I'm not going to praise Leica for their bundling prowess either, though I understand the economic benefit for those who want to buy LR anyway.
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I don't think the margin is is even close between the 5DII and D3x. The D3s tells you what you're going to pay for a professional body on a par with the 1DsIII, and I hope nobody will compare the 5DII to that. And the core IQ isn't even close. Granted, the refurb price I got on the D3x was about the limit of what I was going to pay for it, but $1200 over the price of a D3s is less painful. Nikon messed that one up a bit, but I'm not here to defend them. I'm not going to praise Leica for their bundling prowess either, though I understand the economic benefit for those who want to buy LR anyway.
Nikon clearly doesn't want to sell the D3x on the "larger" market where it should be priced barely above the D3s - why? I don't know, but assume the pricing gap was intended for the unreleased D800. But the mere existence of the D3x serves as a serious pain in the neck for the MF manufacturers. The 5DII is kind of finishing the job for the studio-only crowd - you cannot argue with the plastic fantastic's price. I think Hassy in particular must be really angry that a 5DII+50/1.8 costs as much as a Hassy 80mm lens.
Edmund
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I think Hassy in particular must be really angry that a 5DII+50/1.8 costs as much as a Hassy 80mm lens.
Edmund
Angry? Why? Do you think BMW lose sleep over Toyota offering a 'similar' car for half the price?
Seriously guys, buy the camera you can afford and just enjoy using it. I can't afford an Aston Martin but I don't hang out on car enthusiasts' sites and criticise the pricing of the DBS. They cost what they cost regardless of what I'd like them to cost and if I choose to buy one or not, well that's up to me.
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Angry? Why? Do you think BMW lose sleep over Toyota offering a 'similar' car for half the price?
Seriously guys, buy the camera you can afford and just enjoy using it. I can't afford an Aston Martin but I don't hang out on car enthusiasts' sites and criticise the pricing of the DBS. They cost what they cost regardless of what I'd like them to cost and if I choose to buy one or not, well that's up to me.
I don't know if your metaphor was apt, but to answer your question -- yes, BMW cried themselves to sleep every night when the Lexus came out. It forced them to be more competitive and to keep their prices lower. So in a sense, yeah, they do cost what you think they should cost, given the alternatives.
Otherwise, you have apparently mistaken this for a "gear envy" rant.
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Hi Nick!
So what are the benefits of the BMW?
- More cargo?
- Higher speed limits?
- Less traffic?
On the other hand easily seen that BMW may give you more satisfaction and other subjective benefits.
By the way what car would Pentax 645D be?
Best regards
Erik
Ps. Nice to hear that you have cars in Australia, I thought you were into boating...
Angry? Why? Do you think BMW lose sleep over Toyota offering a 'similar' car for half the price?
Seriously guys, buy the camera you can afford and just enjoy using it. I can't afford an Aston Martin but I don't hang out on car enthusiasts' sites and criticise the pricing of the DBS. They cost what they cost regardless of what I'd like them to cost and if I choose to buy one or not, well that's up to me.
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Guys,
Thanks for the comments... One thing seems sure, everyone who has shot the S2 has enjoyed shooting the S2! It's unusually quick for a camera with a 45mm-wide sensor and definitely comfortable. I'm anxious to see more rental options as the lenses become more widely available... do you guys know of people who rent these now?
~Matt
We (Dale Photo & Digital) offer rental of the S2, all four S lenses, every S accessory, and alternative lens adapters for Hasselblad V, Pentax 67 and Mamiya 645MF. We even rent a bellows adapter with a fully movable front standard for table-top work. And rental is applied 100% to purchase.
Leica S2 Professional Rental | Dale Photo & digital (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/page/1014/Leica_S2_Professional_Rental_Dale_Photo_Digital.htm)
David
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Angry? Why? Do you think BMW lose sleep over Toyota offering a 'similar' car for half the price?
Seriously guys, buy the camera you can afford and just enjoy using it. I can't afford an Aston Martin but I don't hang out on car enthusiasts' sites and criticise the pricing of the DBS. They cost what they cost regardless of what I'd like them to cost and if I choose to buy one or not, well that's up to me.
Well, for amateurs this is true. But pros have to justify investment decisions, and something like "I'll buy a 5DII this year, use my lenses and think about Hassy next year" must have ruined Hassy's sales figures ***to professionals***. Because, yes, most studio work that can be done with a Hassy can also be done with a 5DII and the images are saleable. Oh, and btw, yes, I do have an MF solution, which probably justifies my hanging out here in case you need to see my union card.
Edmund
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Ps. Nice to hear that you have cars in Australia, I thought you were into boating...
He he, I'm in the market for an amphibious Toyota Prado now....
Edmund, yes it's hard for some Pros to justify high end cameras on purely commercial grounds, and the 5DII is amazing 'value'. To stretch the car analogy even further I guess that's why taxis here are Fold Falcons or Toyota Camrys not Mercs or BMWs like in Europe.
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He he, I'm in the market for an amphibious Toyota Prado now....
To stretch the car analogy even further I guess that's why taxis here are Fold Falcons or Toyota Camrys not Mercs or BMWs like in Europe.
Actually we're seeing the same trend here in Paris, of rotten tiny little taxis. Skoda (!) is now almost a high-end choice, and I strongly advise against getting in a cheap Peugeot, your back will never be the same.
Interestingly, a German driver told me 4 or 5 years ago that his company had stopped buying Mercedes because of quality issues, moved to BMW, and was now testing Merc again. Of course, your average Bavarian Beer Belly won't fit in a low-end Peugeot, I guess they have a non-tariff barrier against cheap imports :)
Edmund
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Hi,
Here in Sweden the taxis (cabs) used to be Volvo or SAAB, but with Volvo being chinese owned and SAAB being an Opel with a turbo charged price tag we see a lot of other cars. Toyotas Avensis and VW Passats. It's really a question of return on investment.
My guess is that the S2 (the camera not the car, in case you are asking) is a bit different. My guess is that the ROI on the S2 is very low. If you are making pictures for money I don't think that you got more customers because you shoot with a Leica S2, nor can you charge higher fees, at least when compared with other MF equipment.
My guess is that the benefits with Leica S2 is more on the satisfaction side. Seeing ultimate optical quality, precision and so on.
Best regards
Erik
Actually we're seeing the same trend here in Paris, of rotten tiny little taxis. Skoda (!) is now almost a high-end choice, and I strongly advise against getting in a cheap Peugeot, your back will never be the same.
Interestingly, a German driver told me 4 or 5 years ago that his company had stopped buying Mercedes because of quality issues, moved to BMW, and was now testing Merc again. Of course, your average Bavarian Beer Belly won't fit in a low-end Peugeot, I guess they have a non-tariff barrier against cheap imports :)
Edmund
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My guess is that the S2 (the camera not the car, in case you are asking) is a bit different. My guess is that the ROI on the S2 is very low. If you are making pictures for money I don't think that you got more customers because you shoot with a Leica S2, nor can you charge higher fees, at least when compared with other MF equipment.
My guess is that the benefits with Leica S2 is more on the satisfaction side. Seeing ultimate optical quality, precision and so on.
Best regards
Erik
You are not far from the truth here Erik. It's true that using a D3x or even a 5D2 will achieve 90% of your goals, certainly in the magazine world a DPS from either camera is more than adequate. Spending the extra dough on an S2 is probably a bad idea for the freelance, but what about the fashion shooter who needs to be seen as using flashy cameras? We might know that a modest DSLR can do a similar job but perception is a very powerful force in self promotion. Sometimes there is more to a job that just the outcomes - amateurs focus on pure quality of output and forget that pros can have other priorities - even how cool they look on set!
There are others who pursue ultimate quality for various reasons, one of which is that images from MFDBs when printed at, say, 20x30 inches, look a world apart from run of the mill DSLR images. If you need to differentiate yourself in the market place, as I do, using the same 'cheap' cameras as everyone else is simply poor business. Having the best available is a marketing tool too, but more to then point, being able to make huge prints that are genuinely superior is a big deal for some.
And I don't want to get into the 'stitching can match an MFDB any day' argument, mostly becuase it can't.
Back to the topic might be a good idea here...
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You are not far from the truth here Erik. It's true that using a D3x or even a 5D2 will achieve 90% of your goals, certainly in the magazine world a DPS from either camera is more than adequate. Spending the extra dough on an S2 is probably a bad idea for the freelance, but what about the fashion shooter who needs to be seen as using flashy cameras? We might know that a modest DSLR can do a similar job but perception is a very powerful force in self promotion. Sometimes there is more to a job that just the outcomes - amateurs focus on pure quality of output and forget that pros can have other priorities - even how cool they look on set!
I suppose somebody forgot to tell Helmut Newton and Peter Lindbergh that... Newton went as far as sticking black tape over the brand names. Lindberg seems happy with his D3, and Cooter with his 5DII. (Not to mention that Rob C is like a pig in mud with a D700 ;-).)
But yes, there is value to brand exhibition, and the lower down the market you plough the greater that is: you get that buzz whilst you still seek recognition, but when you already walk on water, who cares?
Rob C
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Hi Nick,
My point was not that much DSLR vs MFDB but more specifically S2 against it's competition. That competition may be:
- Hasselblad (with a very significant price span)
- Pentax having similar (somewhat better?) sensor but weaker lenses. There is also a lot of decent glass for the P645D around collecting dust
- Contax no longer made but still working fine
- All version Phase One/Mamya options
In this group of cameras the Leica has a premium price tag and my impression is that it also has premium performance, at least in principle (the reservation being Lloyd Chambers observations on focusing accuracy). On the other hand the S2 has a relatively small sensor and high price tag. The other question is really the availability and cost of the lenses.
My understanding is that for a commercial photographer the camera equipment would not be a major part of the total cost, but still most commercial photographers are not flush with money and they perhaps need that hard deserved cash to buy a BMW instead of that humble Toyota.
A close parallell. I have a Sony Alpha 900. I also happen to have a lot of lenses among them the ZA 24-70/2.8 lens and the Konica-Minolta 28-75/2.8. I really wanted to have the 24-70/2.8 for it's ultrasonic AF-mechanism. The first test I made compared it with the 28-75/2.8, there was no match, the humble (Tamron based) 28-75/2.8 won hands down! Especially at full aperture. I'm still using the Zeiss and the 28-75/2.8 went to my mother, who enjoys without appreciating the quality. Why I use the Zeiss when the cheap KM 28-75/2.8 does a better job?
- I'm not really sure that the KM 28-75/2.8 does a better job in real life
- The 24-70/2.8 feels like a real lens
- I use f/8 if I can
- Actually, I'm fully satisfied with the performance of the lens
Oddly enough, I bought the ZA during the economic crisis two years ago. I bought it about 15000 SEK (that is 1500 €) two days after I bought it the very same lens did cost 25000 (around 2500 €), so I guess I can call me lucky!
Best regards
Erik
You are not far from the truth here Erik. It's true that using a D3x or even a 5D2 will achieve 90% of your goals, certainly in the magazine world a DPS from either camera is more than adequate. Spending the extra dough on an S2 is probably a bad idea for the freelance, but what about the fashion shooter who needs to be seen as using flashy cameras? We might know that a modest DSLR can do a similar job but perception is a very powerful force in self promotion. Sometimes there is more to a job that just the outcomes - amateurs focus on pure quality of output and forget that pros can have other priorities - even how cool they look on set!
There are others who pursue ultimate quality for various reasons, one of which is that images from MFDBs when printed at, say, 20x30 inches, look a world apart from run of the mill DSLR images. If you need to differentiate yourself in the market place, as I do, using the same 'cheap' cameras as everyone else is simply poor business. Having the best available is a marketing tool too, but more to then point, being able to make huge prints that are genuinely superior is a big deal for some.
And I don't want to get into the 'stitching can match an MFDB any day' argument, mostly becuase it can't.
Back to the topic might be a good idea here...
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Hi!
The obvious may be better lenses. But you may never be able to see the difference. The major differences, if at hand, would show up in the corners at large apertures and with correct focus.
If you shoot without flash and don't use mirror lockup camera vibration is probably eliminating whatever advantage the S2 may have.
A major advantage of the S2 is that the whole system is weather proofed. That also applies to the Pentax 645D.
Best regards
Erik
I can tell you that a camera for prestige, and specially the big ones, does not impress anybody at all in the plateaux, or maybe except the little passerelles.
Is the use of the S2 for fashion indeed relevant? Yes, a rental option (wich is almost impossible to find right now here) and I would be happy to use it but...being a camera designed as a dslr, it's really tempting to use it untethered in a dynamic spirit, to walk arround the model, getting close etc...so we are again in the MF "limitations" but with a camera that's designed in a dslr spirit. See what I mean?
Also, not everybody works with strobes. I always use (and used) hot lights, and specially since the motion option is totally integrated in the shootings.
Do I really gain freedom space movement with the S2 ? No. So again, what would this camera bring me that Hasselblad would not? A slightly faster AF ?
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Hi,
Not always. The question is also how much bigger and how match better. Lousy optics will be even mow lousy with a bigger sensor, because a larger part of the image circle would be used.
MF sensors come in different sizes. Clearly, the P65+ sensor is larger than the S2-sensor but a P40+ may be about the same size. Also, I got the impression that some of the Phase One lenses are very good and Phase One went to Schneider for additional lenses.
Lloyd Chambers has tested both Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D and his S2 images were clearly much better, depending on lenses. Lloyds observations were also consistent with published MTF charts from Leica and Hasselblad. Regarding the MTF curves, the ones published by Leica may be calculated and the Hasselblad figures measured.
Best regards
Erik
Bigger sensor always wins over better glass. That's what MF is all about and why the Blads, Phamiyas etc can compete with the S2 and win.
Edmund
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Some comments:
1) it is very often expensive to get the last little bit of quality. No matter if you talk about cars, audio equipment, cameras/ lenses - I believe there are some great lenses from other brands as well, but I am pretty sure that nearly all the Leica glass is exceptional. Of course its not twice as good, but it is very good
( by the way I believe the same is true for the x1 - which is slow but still IMO the smallest/lightest camera which delievers such good IQ and a special user interface (matter of taste))
2) price is one thing - value the other. Leica lenses are very stable in value
3) IMO the important thing about the S2 is that you can use it for a wider range of taking images. Because of the different form factor, weather proof design and it is also quite responsive, plus the lenses are relativly fast for MF and you get a little more DOF so you might have to stop down 1/2 less than with the large sensors - so you gain about 1 f-stop.
Is it expensive-yes. Now this will sound strange but I say: Many people who can spend 20k for a MF-Kit could also find a way to spend 25k for a S2 kit - it would be more important that the system does what the user wants/needs. And here the S2 offers some advantages and some disadvantages compared to MF.
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I agree with your views of the S2. Nice camera, nice lenses, nice landscape pictures (see Digilloyd), great satisfaction in use. I'd love using it, but find I'm stuck at ISO 1600 F4 almost 100% of the time on the D3x now, I do available light street and hobby only these days, with a very occasional fashion show, and am actually thinking of *downgrading* to the D3s for speed, speed, speed.
Edmund
Hi,
My guess is that the S2 (the camera not the car, in case you are asking) is a bit different. My guess is that the ROI on the S2 is very low. If you are making pictures for money I don't think that you got more customers because you shoot with a Leica S2, nor can you charge higher fees, at least when compared with other MF equipment.
My guess is that the benefits with Leica S2 is more on the satisfaction side. Seeing ultimate optical quality, precision and so on.
Best regards
Erik
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Lloyd Chambers has tested both Leica S2 and Hasselblad H4D and his S2 images were clearly much better, depending on lenses. Lloyds observations were also consistent with published MTF charts from Leica and Hasselblad. Regarding the MTF curves, the ones published by Leica may be calculated and the Hasselblad figures measured.
Best regards
Erik
Don't know about the Hassy lens but the Leica lenses are measured. They don't leave the factory unless they measure above a certain threshold.
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Regarding the MTF curves, the ones published by Leica may be calculated and the Hasselblad figures measured.
I was under the impression it's the other way around..?
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Hi,
The Zeiss lenses Hasselblad had were measured and I still think that is the case with the HC lenses. Regarding the Leica lenses a group of reviewers including Michael Reichmann and Sean Reid have been invited to Solms and given presentations by S2 developers. They were affirmative that the MTF data they presented were calculated, due to time schedule. I don't know if data presented on the Leica site is measured samples or calculated.
Best regards
Erik
I was under the impression it's the other way around..?
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The MTF from Leica is always calculated but incorporates realistic tolerances - not the theoretical performance of the design itself. So they give an impression of an average "real" lens, Carl Zeiss is the only company I know of which actually publishes measured (selected?) MTF.
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We (Dale Photo & Digital) offer rental of the S2, all four S lenses, every S accessory, and alternative lens adapters for Hasselblad V, Pentax 67 and Mamiya 645MF. We even rent a bellows adapter with a fully movable front standard for table-top work. And rental is applied 100% to purchase.
Leica S2 Professional Rental | Dale Photo & digital (http://www.dalephotoanddigital.com/_e/page/1014/Leica_S2_Professional_Rental_Dale_Photo_Digital.htm)
David
David,
Good to hear from you! And great to know about an S2 rental outfit. Can you elaborate on the bellows system you mention? That sounds pretty interesting for studio work..
~Matt
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Hi,
The Zeiss lenses Hasselblad had were measured and I still think that is the case with the HC lenses. Regarding the Leica lenses a group of reviewers including Michael Reichmann and Sean Reid have been invited to Solms and given presentations by S2 developers. They were affirmative that the MTF data they presented were calculated, due to time schedule. I don't know if data presented on the Leica site is measured samples or calculated.
Best regards
Erik
Thanks Erik,
the info is here in the interview MR did with Peter Karbe at 8 min 44 sec:
http://www.vimeo.com/6595625