Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dgberg on November 30, 2010, 10:17:03 am
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Have had my Seal laminator for a month and have tested all the products Seal sent me. I am still not able to laminate my metallic prints without a mottled or almost leather look.
Print Shield gloss and Lustre were recommended but look almost textured like a textured fine art paper after laminating. Really not the look I am after at all. I have Print Guard UV Lustre for laminating canvas and it is much closer but still has a very fine texture. I may order the Print Guard UV Gloss and see how that works. I have some of Seal's Optimount for Plexi face mounting but is a 2 sided adhesive and really not made for on top of the metallic print unless I face it with plexi. Might be what I end up doing.
Anyone have a suggestion for a hi-gloss laminate that will make those metallic prints look like they are faced with plexi? But without that plastic laminate look?
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Anyone laminating metallic prints successfully?
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metallic prints as in paper prints (pictorico, red river, etc..) or coated metal sheets?
I havent tried laminating the paper prints but i had good results using liquitex gloss medium mixed with another UV blocking lamination liquid on acrylic print transferred onto metal sheets.
the end result is a thick, smooth, glossy surface.
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Not metal,metallic as in Lexjets paper metallic.
Have been experimenting with a half dozen roll laminate products and am still searching for a smoother product.
Received a nice polyester film from Shades Of Paper but have used about 25% with mixed results. Will be laminating the metallic print surface before laminating them to my dibond substrate.
To date have spent about $400 on sample rolls and was hoping to find someone that may point me in the direction of a better (Easier to apply) product. Roll laminating glossy papers is real tricky to say the least!
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HI Dan,
I too am interested in finding acceptable laminating for metallic prints. So far the only thing I've found that gives a good look is diasec face mounting, which of course is a whole different approach. I can coat metallic prints OK with Clearstar Type C or other liquid coatings, but I've had no good results with film lamination.
Keep us informed of your progress, please!
David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
David V. Ward Fine Art Photography
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I'll try to do some tests on my pictorico opalescent prints when i get back to my studio on monday. will update you again then. 8)
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In looking through my laminate sample books the smoothest laminates I could find are the GBC Octiva 10Mil Gloss, and 10Mil Lo-Melt with Prelume Gloss. The 5mil version of these are not as smooth. Their 5Mil Lo-Melt with Prelume Lustre Hardcoat is really smooth if you don't want as gloss a finish.
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Everything I am using is pretty smooth. The problem is the glue's on the vinyl give a mottled look, so the print is not clear. 2 rolls of 10 mil low temp hi-gloss laminating film came with my laminator. If you go super slow with the proper heat it does an ok job. Problem is it looks like you put a thick piece of highly reflective gloss laminate over your print. (Exactly what I have done.) Not a good look. The 2 mil polyester I received from Shades of paper looks like it should work except I cannot get my work area sterile enough to laminate usable prints.
The low temp Seal print guard laminate works great on canvas. I just gallery wrapped my first print that was roll laminated and not sprayed. Gives you a thicker fold because of the laminate material but other then that it looks really good. The big deal with this type of laminating is no ink cracking or scuffing of ink. The vinyl laminate really protects the canvas.
Their will always be issues. First and foremost will be is the look and feel acceptable? The low temp laminate is heated and roll pressed onto the canvas so the texture is pretty natural looking. Some will not like the plasticky look of the canvas. Just experimenting for now so no real plans to move this direction other then more trials and workshop demonstrations.
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The low temp Seal print guard laminate works great on canvas. I just gallery wrapped my first print that was roll laminated and not sprayed. Gives you a thicker fold because of the laminate material but other then that it looks really good. The big deal with this type of laminating is no ink cracking or scuffing of ink. The vinyl laminate really protects the canvas.
Their will always be issues. First and foremost will be is the look and feel acceptable? The low temp laminate is heated and roll pressed onto the canvas so the texture is pretty natural looking. Some will not like the plasticky look of the canvas. Just experimenting for now so no real plans to move this direction other then more trials and workshop demonstrations.
I have been laminating canvas for a number of years with this method. Have you tried Seal's Printguard UltaMatte yet? Speaking of folding, I have been using a technique similar to the Hahnemuhle Canvas Wrap Systems with the film laminated canvas for about the last three years. I still do traditional stretching if one requests it. It might be thicker to fold, but man is it durable.
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Intuitively I suspect that any lamination is just going to kill the optical look of the metallic simulated surface.
Most laminates I've used dull down even the dmax of rc media and I would expect it to flatten out the subtle effects of this kind of media. Even putting these papers behind glass or plexi dulls the effects to a degree.
j
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Intuitively I suspect that any lamination is just going to kill the optical look of the metallic simulated surface.
Most laminates I've used dull down even the dmax of rc media and I would expect it to flatten out the subtle effects of this kind of media. Even putting these papers behind glass or plexi dulls the effects to a degree.
j
I'm hoping that does not happen.(Killing the optical look.) We are talking gloss laminates only. My issues are mostly contamination and laminates that are not crystal clear.
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I have been laminating canvas for a number of years with this method. Have you tried Seal's Printguard UltaMatte yet? Speaking of folding, I have been using a technique similar to the Hahnemuhle Canvas Wrap Systems with the film laminated canvas for about the last three years. I still do traditional stretching if one requests it. It might be thicker to fold, but man is it durable.
I have Printguards Ultra Matte and Luster and use both on canvas. I really love the luster on canvas if it were just not so glossy. I am going to order a sample roll of the Printguard gloss as it is the only one I have not tried on Metallic. At least I can buy sample rolls which saves me alot.
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Face mounting on to plexiglass in my experience is the only way to retain the Dmax and effect of the metallic print - and yes it may look plasticy, but with a metallic print you only have 2 options - to deaden it down by a soft laminate where the glue is a bit opaque - (which is what you are experiencing) ; or to enhance the metallic effect and look at the 'plasticy effect ' with a differnet perspective and think of it as 'enhancing' the metallic effect.
I would keep an open mind and try one of your prints and have it face mounted on plexi and then see what you thought of the effect. I would then let go of the fact that you have purchased a Seal laminator for the job - and unless you use it for other projects, I would sell it. :D When you see the results you will soon forget the trials and tribulations you have been through getting to that point. :D
Julie
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Face mounting on to plexiglass in my experience is the only way to retain the Dmax and effect of the metallic print - and yes it may look plasticy, but with a metallic print you only have 2 options - to deaden it down by a soft laminate where the glue is a bit opaque - (which is what you are experiencing) ; or to enhance the metallic effect and look at the 'plasticy effect ' with a differnet perspective and think of it as 'enhancing' the metallic effect.
I would keep an open mind and try one of your prints and have it face mounted on plexi and then see what you thought of the effect. I would then let go of the fact that you have purchased a Seal laminator for the job - and unless you use it for other projects, I would sell it. :D When you see the results you will soon forget the trials and tribulations you have been through getting to that point. :D
Julie
I have been experimenting with a dozen different laminating processes with many assorted materials. I actually have plexi ordered and it should arrive next week.
Not sure I understood the comment about selling the laminator as it is the machine I will use for my plexi mounting and already use for my dibond mounting and canvas laminating.
I have dibond and "opti mount" adhesive for the plexi mounts and cannot wait to try it out over the metallic prints.
If your going to have a printmaking and mounting studio and also teach workshops you must have all the right equipment.
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Dan, Sorry I didn't realise you used the laminator for other projects. I thought you only purchased it for the project which you described.
I have been advised that the best product to use is Seal - Optimount. I wanted to use it myself for my own art projects, but could not purchase small quantities for my project - so outsource it locally.
Julie
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Julie,
Not a problem. This is a picture of one of our metallic prints laminated to one of the brushed stainless dibond custom frames we build. The reason for our trials is to enhance and protect these metallic prints.
Presently we are not covering the prints with spray or laminate until we find the appropriate product. For this mount we would prefer something thin like a crystal clear laminate.
Although we thought of plexi for this we feel it will stick out too proud if you will and ruin the effect.
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Julie,
Not a problem. This is a picture of one of our metallic prints laminated to one of the brushed stainless dibond custom frames we build. The reason for our trials is to enhance and protect these metallic prints.
Presently we are not covering the prints with spray or laminate until we find the appropriate product. For this mount we would prefer something thin like a crystal clear laminate.
Although we thought of plexi for this we feel it will stick out too proud if you will and ruin the effect.
Now I see what you are trying to do Dan. I still think that the face mounting is the only way to go to support and enhance the effect of the metallic print, but I do recognise the problem with the edge of the plexiglass not working with the angled edge of your mounting frame.
Have you considered cutting the plexiglass on an angle - ie a mitred edge the same angle as your brushed stainless dibond edge- then polish the edges of the perspex so it is like an extension of the custom frame mount you make??? It would require precision to get the plexiglass to match exaclty the angles and corners of the base mounting frame - but that's what framing requires anyway hey !
Just a thought.
Julie
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Dan
Just got a Drytac laminator specifically to do gloss laminates of Lexjet Metallic. Initial testing with Drytac's Protac Glossy look great. This is a pressure only application. Maybe you could try some of the Seal PSA laminate rather than something that is heat based.
Gary
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Gary,
I will do that thank you. Are you cutting a sheet off the roll and laminating? Or just webbing the whole roll ?
May try the Drytac product as well. I have several vinyls like you are using but do not get a real smooth finish from them. I just received a roll of the polyester psa from Shades of Paper but cannot seem to lay it down without getting some sort of imperfection between the print and laminate.
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Dan, as promised I did some tests with liquid polyurethane laminate on a pictorico opalescent paper print (hope it's metallic enough to match your print).
the results are not too bad - a total glossy, smooth and tough coating.
i've attached some rough pictures taken from my iphone cuz i was rushing for another meeting but if you need better images, i'll do a proper product shot of the surface when i go in tomorrow.
you'll see some scratches on the print due to me using a bamboo skewer to replace my glass coating rod (my bad).
the coating was done the same way you coat photo papers, just different liquid.
i'm quite sure the method can be scaled up to coat a 20x30 print without much problem. you'll just need a longer glass rod.
lemme know what you think.
-James
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James,
Thanks for your efforts. How much contamination is on the print. In other words how smooth to the touch after it has dried.
My spray booth is pretty sterile and I stll get some contamination when spraying Clearstar FA.
Pretty much the reason I went the roll laminator route. Laminated several more prints today with the polyester laminate. I am getting better results . It only takes a tiny speck of dust to ruin the whole shootin match.
So far I have laminated about 14 prints and only 2 or 3 are perfect. Not a very good ratio.
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Hi Dan, it's glossy smooth without much dust contamination. I used the pouring method instead of spraying as spraying tends to capture more airborne particles and is often not thick enough to create the glossy effect.
Bubbles in the liquid are the biggest issue so I try to avoid creating them as much as possible by letting the liquid sit in the bottle for a while.
On hindsight I guess the best method will be to pour a thick puddle on one end of the print, and using a coating rod with some tape on both ends (to ensure some clearance between rod and paper), push and spread the liquid across the print with as few passes as possible. Every pass it makes increases chances of scratch and contamination.
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Dan
Doing the lamination from the roll. I use Sintra 3 and 6mm for backboards. I lay down the Drytac PSA and don't remove the liner for being able to release the after laminating. Start the feed, lay on the print, use a tack cloth (Drytac) to remove any dust and laminate. Just replied to your dust removal machine post and so far with the Jet 1000 haven't had a dust problem. Usually run it for about an hour or so before I start and then shut it down. Been very happy with the results.
Gary
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Thanks Gary,
I just have a light film of dust almost everywhere I wipe my hand. Just a really big building and dust is a part of it. Since I started laminating any dust at all seems attracted to the adhesive. Randy Carone suggested using something to cut down the static especially when using the polyester laminates as it really attracts dust.
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Why not just partition a small area for the lamination? The room air cleaners / filters don't work well in a large area, dust is always going to be inside a room unless you make it a "clean room", and this takes more than just a unit sitting in a room or attached to a furnace.
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I think I've hyped this product before on this forum, but I'll do it again. http://www.drytac.com/drs-roller.html (http://www.drytac.com/drs-roller.html) This roller is really amazing for removing dust from prints and laminates. It's the most indispensable tool I use when laminating (well besides the laminator i guess :)). When I was getting heavily into lenticular printing a few years ago, I spent a lot of time and money trying to remove dust and static from the environment. At one point I even bought an anti static air gun that blew compressed air over radioactive isotopes to neutralize static (which I promptly returned when the state of Massachusetts sent me a $200 radioactive device tax bill). I really don't bother with that stuff anymore, My procedure is to clean the surface of the print with the roller, clean the surface of the laminate with the roller and then quickly place the two clean surfaces face to face before any dust can get in. I realize the roller is a relatively expensive item, but I would highly recommend giving it a shot before buying an air purifacation unit.
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Dan
Might be more of a static issue. You can use an anti-static cloth on the the print (Drytac or one from a photo vendor), a large static brush or as suggested the DRS roller. One thing that might help in the winter when the static is more of an issue to to increase the humidity. A little wet dust won't float around as much (at least my non technical mind says so) :). Couple of folks make the rollers, SDI is the one that makes the unit from Drytac.
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Hi Dan and everyone else,
This discussion would probably be more effective if we left out sellers brand names.
Like printing papers (there are probably a hundred names for the same paper rebranded from a few mills) you will very rapidly find yourself chasing your tail if you think seal is better than gbc is better than...etc.
You will find that looking at hard vs soft, hot vs cold, expensive vs cheap will yield a faster result to many issues.
Then you have to find the best combination of temperature, pressure and speed for the best result with each of your materials)
10 mill vinyl sounds awfully thick, like something used for a floor graphic. What's the ratio of substrate to adhesive on that vinyl?
I've never seen a gloss vinyl as shiny as polycarb or polyester but I haven't been doing this all that long so ymmv.
I'm curious as to the level of training your dealer provided when they installed the machine? Did they even show you a DRS roller?
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Some times more then often the brand name is extremely important when testing products.
This was an eBay purchase so the only instruction I had was from my seal distributor who drove over from Nj. If you read the post about the 10 mil laminate those boxes came with the eBay purchase and are here to use if I can find something to apply them to. Now it's down to spending $190.00 for a $50.00 roller. Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet.
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The DRS roller will be the best money you spend even at twice the cost.
What is the value of what you have lost so far in time and materials?
Like you I contend with a wood shop.
What I do is use my roller to clean the table (after wiping it down with a rag) and then clean both sides of my print.
Then I clean the infeed of the laminator.
I almost always make stickers (adhesive on bottom roller and lamination on top roller)
Before I send in the print... I clean it again and watch it carefully as it goes in.
Nothing irks me more than having to do a job twice and get paid once.
Doing it right the first time is also very green.