Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Brett L on January 27, 2021, 01:50:32 pm
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So my 24" Z3200 PS has a problem whereby certain colours print incorrectly - Notably MK-R but also Green. They lack saturation and appear faded. Especially on certain papers such as HP Matte Litho Realistic. Sometimes on a diagnostic print they won't print at all. I am also regularly instructed to reseat the MK-R printhead. If I switch the machine off and on again the printhead no longer needs to be reseated. After a huge process of elimination (replacing inks and printheads, cleaning printhead contacts, running diagnostics and finding high DeltaE readings, cleaning the colour spectrophotometer etc) I replaced the spectrophotometer. It was an educated gamble. It has not cured the problem.
Now when I run a diagnostic of the spectro it passes with a Maximum DeltaE of 3.724. However if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355.
Today the machine is insisting I replace various printheads. I replaced one (E-G) and then it said a different one needed replacing plus E-G needs replacing again - with the printhead not an hour old.
I thought I'd calibrate the line sensor too, seeing as it is part of the carriage assembly and connects to the carriage PCA. That failed too.
I don't believe that all of these individual parts can be at fault. They are all part of the Carriage Assembly and connect to the Carriage PCA. I'm ready to replace the assembly, in the hope that the problem will be solved for good. Or is the Carriage PCA sufficient? Or is it time to push my lightly used z3200 off a cliff?
Sorry for the long post but it's a complicated problem. Any advice would be gratefully received.
Many thanks
Brett
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So my 24" Z3200 PS has a problem whereby certain colours print incorrectly - Notably MK-R but also Green. They lack saturation and appear faded. Especially on certain papers such as HP Matte Litho Realistic. Sometimes on a diagnostic print they won't print at all. I am also regularly instructed to reseat the MK-R printhead. If I switch the machine off and on again the printhead no longer needs to be reseated. After a huge process of elimination (replacing inks and printheads, cleaning printhead contacts, running diagnostics and finding high DeltaE readings, cleaning the colour spectrophotometer etc) I replaced the spectrophotometer. It was an educated gamble. It has not cured the problem.
Now when I run a diagnostic of the spectro it passes with a Maximum DeltaE of 3.724. However if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355.
Today the machine is insisting I replace various printheads. I replaced one (E-G) and then it said a different one needed replacing plus E-G needs replacing again - with the printhead not an hour old.
I thought I'd calibrate the line sensor too, seeing as it is part of the carriage assembly and connects to the carriage PCA. That failed too.
I don't believe that all of these individual parts can be at fault. They are all part of the Carriage Assembly and connect to the Carriage PCA. I'm ready to replace the assembly, in the hope that the problem will be solved for good. Or is the Carriage PCA sufficient? Or is it time to push my lightly used z3200 off a cliff?
Sorry for the long post but it's a complicated problem. Any advice would be gratefully received.
Many thanks
Brett
Could the ribbon cables to the head carriage be on their last legs? Too much resistance in a wire that has several threads broken? I do not experience the same what you see but here the ribbon cables do not bend and run that elegant anymore on my printer and make more noise so I fear that they will wear faster. Any sign of that on your printer?
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Could the ribbon cables to the head carriage be on their last legs? Too much resistance in a wire that has several threads broken? I do not experience the same what you see but here the ribbon cables do not bend and run that elegant anymore on my printer and make more noise so I fear that they will wear faster. Any sign of that on your printer?
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla
https://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Hi Ernst,
I also wondered if it might be the trailing cable but it seems pretty flexible and in good condition. Although I've owned the machine since 2011 it has really only had light use and so wear is less than you'd normally expect. I am pretty stumped as to the best way forward. Maybe I should consider replacing the cable as a process of elimination? Though I'd rather not have to unless I'm sure.
Many thanks
Brett
https://www.Whose-Art.com
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Did you try removing the formatter board on the top back of the printer and replacing that battery?
I had my carriage unit replaced on my 12 year old z3100 when the tech damaged the old one when replacing the belt and this thing now runs and makes profiles like a brand new printer. Seriously . But I would check for any loose or damaged cable connections.
Can we still get new parts for these machines?
I found a source for the HP synthetic oil at a very reasonable price -
http://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=6040-0855&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3smABhCjARIsAKtrg6JYQgDgve4ga7vLRFLn0EkRRipG7OkbXtHVoIwnUnHqXjgDUu4TciYaApKmEALw_wcB
John
Hi Ernst,
I also wondered if it might be the trailing cable but it seems pretty flexible and in good condition. Although I've owned the machine since 2011 it has really only had light use and so wear is less than you'd normally expect. I am pretty stumped as to the best way forward. Maybe I should consider replacing the cable as a process of elimination? Though I'd rather not have to unless I'm sure.
Many thanks
Brett
https://www.Whose-Art.com
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Hi Brett,
I understand you've done seemingly all there is to do. One of the mistakes Z3200-ists do is just start replacing parts. This can cause problems that aren't there.
I don't know how old your inks and print heads are, but they need to be at least 1/2 full or more for force reseat.
This is HP's approach in almost every instance:
Get carriage to move, (just open and close the cover) pull the plug from behind (and the LAN cable), move carriage to the spot where the printhead door can be opened. Pull all printheads, then all cartridges.
Good idea to either at this point, put all new printheads in, and all new cartridges. (If you buy from HP, they are required to do support if they don't work)
If you have old expired cartridges, if you have minimally half to 75% full - good idea to bag and shake for a good long time.
Making sure the power switch is off, plug in the printer. Do not plug the lan cable in until the printer is completely working.
Power on. The printer will see there are no printheads, no cartridges and it thinks it is initializing for the first time.
It will tell you to install the cartridges one by one. Do so.
Next it will ask for the printheads, install them.
Let it go through the entire initialization and have a 24" wide glossy sheet or some glossy 24" wide paper ready to load.
If you get this far, often it will ask to do a head alignment.
If so, do that. See what happens.
Often this just works. This is the first action anyone should take when encountering any serious issue that is undiagnosed or mis-diagnosed.
Rather than doing a diagnostic print, just first run a known print and see how it looks.
If there are problems, then go to the diagnostic print.
After this, if problems still persist, again check your error codes and start trouble shooting again.
Hope this helps, I imagine you've done a variation of this, but perhaps try this in this sequence.
Best,
Mark
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Did you try removing the formatter board on the top back of the printer and replacing that battery?
I had my carriage unit replaced on my 12 year old z3100 when the tech damaged the old one when replacing the belt and this thing now runs and makes profiles like a brand new printer. Seriously . But I would check for any loose or damaged cable connections.
Can we still get new parts for these machines?
I found a source for the HP synthetic oil at a very reasonable price -
http://www.partshere.com/online/detail.asp?partno=6040-0855&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3smABhCjARIsAKtrg6JYQgDgve4ga7vLRFLn0EkRRipG7OkbXtHVoIwnUnHqXjgDUu4TciYaApKmEALw_wcB
John
Many thanks John. I have taken your advice and renewed the battery in the formatter board. Cables and connections all seem fine. At least it's encouraging to hear that if I do replace the carriage assembly it may bring all sorts of other improvements too. As of yet the colour issues (namely with MK) remain.
Thanks
Brett
https://Whose-Art.com
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Hi Brett,
I understand you've done seemingly all there is to do. One of the mistakes Z3200-ists do is just start replacing parts. This can cause problems that aren't there.
I don't know how old your inks and print heads are, but they need to be at least 1/2 full or more for force reseat.
This is HP's approach in almost every instance:
Get carriage to move, (just open and close the cover) pull the plug from behind (and the LAN cable), move carriage to the spot where the printhead door can be opened. Pull all printheads, then all cartridges.
Good idea to either at this point, put all new printheads in, and all new cartridges. (If you buy from HP, they are required to do support if they don't work)
If you have old expired cartridges, if you have minimally half to 75% full - good idea to bag and shake for a good long time.
Making sure the power switch is off, plug in the printer. Do not plug the lan cable in until the printer is completely working.
Power on. The printer will see there are no printheads, no cartridges and it thinks it is initializing for the first time.
It will tell you to install the cartridges one by one. Do so.
Next it will ask for the printheads, install them.
Let it go through the entire initialization and have a 24" wide glossy sheet or some glossy 24" wide paper ready to load.
If you get this far, often it will ask to do a head alignment.
If so, do that. See what happens.
Often this just works. This is the first action anyone should take when encountering any serious issue that is undiagnosed or mis-diagnosed.
Rather than doing a diagnostic print, just first run a known print and see how it looks.
If there are problems, then go to the diagnostic print.
After this, if problems still persist, again check your error codes and start trouble shooting again.
Hope this helps, I imagine you've done a variation of this, but perhaps try this in this sequence.
Best,
Mark
Hi Mark
Many thanks for this.
I have done exactly as you suggest and it has certainly cured the machine from requesting new printheads. All of those messages have disappeared.
The colours have improved too (in terms of saturation). I was having an issue with Green and that has now been resolved. So that's great.
Unfortunately the original problem that started it all off still remains.
MK seems to be less saturated than it used to be and image quality is affected. There's no issue with blockage as it prints very black at the bottom of the diagnostic image (where the lines are located). It's just on the larger patch at the top of the diagnostic sheet that the colour appears more grey than black.
Again I sometimes randomly get a message to reseat the MK-R printhead when switching the machine on.
The printhead is new but the problem occurred with the previous printhead too. MK and R cartridges have also been recently replaced but this hasn't helped.
I've also updated the paper calibration but this has had no impact.
I have just run a diagnostic on the colour sensor. It passed. When I then ran a diagnostic on the carriage assembly it failed on the colour sensor (as well as a couple of voltage issues) - I have attached some photos.
Is it possible that this could be the carriage PCA?
I have checked cables and connections etc and they seem fine. I am able to get a whole carriage assembly and trailing cable new on eBay (from China) at a price that isn't prohibitive.
I'm very tempted to go down this road, in the hope I can move on. However if there are other things I should be trying then I'm keen to do so. I'd be really grateful for any thoughts.
Many thanks
Brett
https://Whose-Art.com
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"One of the mistakes Z3200-ists do is just start replacing parts." Guilty.
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If you need to replace your carriage assembly it is cheaper to buy individual parts rather than the whole unit. The main housing should be ok.
I changed my carriage PCA board, trailing cable and the ribbon cable assembly from printheads to the PCA. The hardest part was connecting ribbon cables in the confined space.
LPS is a great source from parts and advice.
Thanks for this. What sort of symptoms was your Designjet suffering that made you change those parts? Were you getting a specific fault code or were you going through a process of elimination?
Were your issues resolved as a result?
I'm looking for a crumb of comfort from a success story!
Many thanks,
Brett
https://Whose-Art.com
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If i have a problem with ink- like you with mk- i make an image in photosop with that colour and make some prints to see if that helps
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So I’m perilously close to the dreaded “swapping out parts” moment.
Before I’m forced down that road, I was wondering if there are any other secret startup/reboot/magic-HP-fairy-dust ways of getting this Z3200 to fire on all cylinders?
Removing all of the printheads & cartridges prior to start up has definitely fixed the problem with Green. However the MK issue remains.
Strangely, if I produce a test swatch purely of black in Photoshop it prints well. However as soon as I print the diagnostic image or a more complex image (that has previously printed perfectly), the black lacks saturation.
Is it possible to uninstall and reinstall the firmware?
Also am I right in thinking that restarting the printer with the formatter board removed, as well as the printheads & cartridges, will help the Z3200 relax and get it right? Or would that be like removing its heart?
I have no desire to commit an act of Designjet murder...yet...
Any thoughts very welcome!
Many thanks
Brett
https://Whose-Art.com
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Can you post a picture of that diagnostic image?
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Can you post a picture of that diagnostic image?
Right, I start with immediate apologies for the lamentable quality of the photos! But I had to use my phone and shadows etc played havoc. Hence the strange angles...
In the first photo (with two diagnostic charts), the chart on the left shows MK the way it looks on my Z3200 when functioning properly. The chart on the right shows the current status. Hopefully you can see that, on the right, the MK is more grey than black. If you look at the bottom of the diagrams you can see that, on the faulty chart, a richer black is printed for the MK when showing whether the head needs cleaning. So it is capable of printing the rich blacks. It just appears to be refusing when it counts.
The second photo shows a freak recent occurrence whereby MK-R was omitted from the diagnostic image altogether (which makes me wonder if it's a carriage PCA or even a firmware issue?). I restarted the machine and the problem didn't repeat. However MK-R is the baby that I'm often asked to randomly reseat (it's brand new and well within warranty/expiry - though I had the same issue with the previous printhead).
Photos 3 and 4 are not accurate in terms of the actual colours in the photo (they don't reflect what the images are really like). However hopefully you can see where darks are present in image 3 that aren't present in image 4. Especially if you look at the darks on the horses. Image 3 was printed when the machine functioned properly. Image 4 is the current effort. The differences between the two images are far more noticeable in the flesh.
I realise it's pretty shameless of me to post such shockingly low quality photos on such a prestigious forum. Sadly it's the best I could offer under the circumstances. I apologise unreservedly!
Any thoughts/suggestions (not on my photography skills) would be enthusiastically received.
Many thanks
Brett
https://whose-art.com
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That is some strange stuff. I haven’t followed the whole thread, but did you remove all the designjet software and reinstall?
Right, I start with immediate apologies for the lamentable quality of the photos! But I had to use my phone and shadows etc played havoc. Hence the strange angles...
In the first photo (with two diagnostic charts), the chart on the left shows MK the way it looks on my Z3200 when functioning properly. The chart on the right shows the current status. Hopefully you can see that, on the right, the MK is more grey than black. If you look at the bottom of the diagrams you can see that, on the faulty chart, a richer black is printed for the MK when showing whether the head needs cleaning. So it is capable of printing the rich blacks. It just appears to be refusing when it counts.
The second photo shows a freak recent occurrence whereby MK-R was omitted from the diagnostic image altogether (which makes me wonder if it's a carriage PCA or even a firmware issue?). I restarted the machine and the problem didn't repeat. However MK-R is the baby that I'm often asked to randomly reseat (it's brand new and well within warranty/expiry - though I had the same issue with the previous printhead).
Photos 3 and 4 are not accurate in terms of the actual colours in the photo (they don't reflect what the images are really like). However hopefully you can see where darks are present in image 3 that aren't present in image 4. Especially if you look at the darks on the horses. Image 3 was printed when the machine functioned properly. Image 4 is the current effort. The differences between the two images are far more noticeable in the flesh.
I realise it's pretty shameless of me to post such shockingly low quality photos on such a prestigious forum. Sadly it's the best I could offer under the circumstances. I apologise unreservedly!
Any thoughts/suggestions (not on my photography skills) would be enthusiastically received.
Many thanks
Brett
https://whose-art.com
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Good thing about the diagnostic stuff, there is no driver or software involved.
Talking about the first diagnostic images, it looks as if not only the MK black but also the red suffers a bit? Or is this just because of the Photo?
Very odd: on the left diagnostic the MK shows some missing droplets while on the (less saturated) right it looks perfect?
Hoping for some experts to chime in ...
regards
Gernot
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That is some strange stuff. I haven’t followed the whole thread, but did you remove all the designjet software and reinstall?
I have removed and reinstalled the drivers etc. In the past when I've had colour reproduction issues, a firmware update has done the trick. Obviously nowadays there are no firmware updates and I can't see how to uninstall and reinstall firmware.
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Good thing about the diagnostic stuff, there is no driver or software involved.
Talking about the first diagnostic images, it looks as if not only the MK black but also the red suffers a bit? Or is this just because of the Photo?
Very odd: on the left diagnostic the MK shows some missing droplets while on the (less saturated) right it looks perfect?
Hoping for some experts to chime in ...
regards
Gernot
You're quite right, Gernot the red is affected too. It's just that the MK is so noticeable that I'm kind of obsessing with it.
And yes, the diagnostic on the right shows no droplets missing.
I have repeatedly cleaned all contacts and connections for the MK-R. The mystery continues...
Many thanks
Brett
https://whose-art.com
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Brett,
Please list in order the inks, how much is in each cartridge and the expiration date.
Same thing, please list the expiration date of all printheads.
Looking at your diagnostic chart, it looks like you have a bad MK/R printhead.
You say it's brand new. You can call HP and they should send you a new one.
It's not uncommon, unfortunately, for current printheads to be less than perfect these days. (Go figure).
I admire your stick-to-it-ness. Keep on, you'll get there one way or another.
If you have an earlier firmware, you can reinstall it. But... you should have both the current one and the previous or earlier one.
What OS are you using?
Best,
Mark
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Brett,
Please list in order the inks, how much is in each cartridge and the expiration date.
Same thing, please list the expiration date of all printheads.
Looking at your diagnostic chart, it looks like you have a bad MK/R printhead.
You say it's brand new. You can call HP and they should send you a new one.
It's not uncommon, unfortunately, for current printheads to be less than perfect these days. (Go figure).
I admire your stick-to-it-ness. Keep on, you'll get there one way or another.
If you have an earlier firmware, you can reinstall it. But... you should have both the current one and the previous or earlier one.
What OS are you using?
Best,
Mark
Mark,
I feel a bit like a guilty student summoned to the Principal's office - and not without reason! I buy my consumables in bulk and then they sit until required. So I'm definitely using expired inks etc. Though I must admit, I have been told many times that the ink expiry date isn't an issue? That's why I've happily gone down that route.
In terms of the ink levels: This problem has been ongoing since late November. So a lot of test images and diagnostics have been printed in the meantime. I mean loads. So the inks have all at some stage been 80% or more whilst the problem has been ongoing. Some have been replaced in that time.
I totally agree about the MK-R printhead appearing faulty. It's only the fact that I changed the printhead in the hope that it might fix the issue, that makes me think that's not the problem. I had exactly the same issues with the previous printhead. Having said that, i'm going to get it replaced under warranty anyway as a precaution. Plus it's been reseated so many times that the little blue handle has broken off!
Anyway, here is all the requested information. The printer has worked faultlessly before with inks etc that have expired by similar margins. So I'm hoping this isn't the problem. However I carry spares of all inks (sadly, many expired by now) so can replace any in an instant.
OS:
Mac 10.11.6 (El Capitan)
Mac 10.14.4 (Mojave)
Same issue with either OS - two different computers.
Firmware:
TR12-RB_15.0.0.2
Product: Q6720A
Inks:
All inks have been installed within the last 12 months (from sealed packaging), regardless of expiry date.
E. April 2017. 45%
G. August 2020 50%
B. April 2011 49% - That looks old even to me. I can replace it with a newer one if you think it would help?
GN. May 2015 92%
M. March 2014 66%
Y. Oct 2017 55%
LM. Sept 2014 62%
LC. June 2011 40% - Again perhaps worth a swap?
PK. Sept 2020 57%
LG. Dec 2021 18%
MK. March 2016 22% - This was old stock which I installed after the fault developed, in the hope it would fix things. So I've used 78% on tests!! It does seem to be thirsty. I have another with exp of March 2020 which I can replace it with again straight away?
R. June 2015 26% - Again this has been installed after the fault developed (replacing a newer cartridge) in the hope it might fix things. It's used 74% on test images. Again that seems to be using up ink more quickly than the others.
Printheads:
E-G: Feb 2017 (installed in the last week or so)
B-GN: Jan 2018 (installed after the fault had developed)
M-Y: May 2022
LM-LC: March 2021
PB-LG: Sept 2018
MK-R: June 2021 (purchased and installed in December 2020 - after the fault had developed)
The only other fact that may be relevant is that I have owned this printer since new (March 2011) and didn't actually know how important it is to keep it switched on at all times until about 3 years ago. So it's been on constantly for the last 3 years but for the previous 7 years it was on and off for varying periods. Only genuine HP products have ever been used.
All is laid bare, Mark! Please go easy on me... ;)
Many thanks,
Brett
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I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.
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Mark,
I feel a bit like a guilty student summoned to the Principal's office - and not without reason! I buy my consumables in bulk and then they sit until required. So I'm definitely using expired inks etc. Though I must admit, I have been told many times that the ink expiry date isn't an issue? That's why I've happily gone down that route.
Hi Brett - Not my intention to make you feel intimidated in any way - sorry if I have done so inadvertently. As long as your printer is no longer in warranty, it's fine to use expired inks as long as they are OEM HP inks. I use expired inks in my printers that are are no longer warrantied.
In terms of the ink levels: This problem has been ongoing since late November. So a lot of test images and diagnostics have been printed in the meantime. I mean loads. So the inks have all at some stage been 80% or more whilst the problem has been ongoing. Some have been replaced in that time.
I totally agree about the MK-R printhead appearing faulty. It's only the fact that I changed the printhead in the hope that it might fix the issue, that makes me think that's not the problem. I had exactly the same issues with the previous printhead. Having said that, i'm going to get it replaced under warranty anyway as a precaution. Plus it's been reseated so many times that the little blue handle has broken off!
Anyway, here is all the requested information. The printer has worked faultlessly before with inks etc that have expired by similar margins. So I'm hoping this isn't the problem. However I carry spares of all inks (sadly, many expired by now) so can replace any in an instant.
OK, so all of the above still leads me to think your printer is ok, but that the MK-R printhead is still the culprit. This could mean the channels as well.
First: Your printer is operating properly - it powers up and initializes.
Second: The diagnostic image shows everything is working correctly, but there are print head issues. I'm sure you have visited THIS PAGE (http://z3200.com/Cleaning_HP-Z3200_Print_Heads_Manually.htm) but it might be a good idea to re-visit, and to download My PRINTHEAD EXERCISE PRINT (http://z3200.com/images/printhead_cleaning/PRINTHEADS/Printhead_Excercise_Image-Robogravure.jpg)
I would suggest running a printhead cleaning on the MK-R printhead, then printing several 8x10 patches of MK and Red that you make up. The idea is to force ink through the printhead and lines.
Then print the exercise print a few times.
Before going to a diagnostic print, go ahead and print a known print that you are very familiar with and see how it does.
If it seems to print ok, keep printing.
The fact that you had the printer turned off for extended periods isn't good, but it's not the end of the world.
Just for your own information, while I do use expired inks, I mostly don't use expired printheads. I buy them new from HP and know I can call support even on an out of warranty printer if the printhead is suspect.
My plan after all this, would be to replace the MK-R printhead. Your printheads are pretty old - not to say they won't work, but they can cause problems in my experience when they are over three years old. Not always, but often.
If this was my printer, after I got the printer printing, I would buy all new printheads, and install those printheads and full cartridges using the technique I outlined in Reply #4 in this thread.
Importantly, I would do another cleaning of the printhead contacts in the carriage before re-installing the printheads and cartridges.
The way I look at it, is that in lieu of changing the carriage, careful cleaning can often clear problems. If you have new printheads and expired inks, they can still be used if you eventually change the carriage.
I come to these conclusions thinking that your printer is mostly working fine.
I'd go at it this way based on my experience with these machines since 2004-5. HP normally just replaces parts and that's fine under warranty, but we have to make do more and more now.
FYI: I'm using Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on the newest Z3200ps, and TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on another Z3200ps printer not under warranty. My Z3100 is under a sheet in storage, another Z3200ps 44" is pulled apart waiting for me to finish rebuilding, and a Z3200 24" has an older firmware that doesn't apply here. All the 44" Z3200ps printers are Rev B machines.
The 24" Z3200 is a Rev A machine with Firmware: TR12-RB_11.0.0.3
I run several computers in my studio, about 5 Macs and 4 Windows machines. I mostly print from my main editing machine - Mojave 10.14.2
I think you're doing fine Brett - I've outlined what I would do before replacing your carriage and pulling things apart. I usually find that forcing ink usually does the trick. Granted it can be a pain, but in many cases, as long as the printer is running it often works.
Best wishes Brett -
Mark
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[Did you shake your ink carts? If not I bet that is your problem. All ink carts need to be shaken periodically. All pigments settle and become separate from their base eventually. We don’t notice usually because we use them up so quickly. The only exception to this is the Canon IPF Prograph printers which have a strong ink mixing mechanism built into the printer. I bet if you shake those carts, then do one head cleaning you’ll see a difference.
Come to think about it I had this same problem with the MK channel many years ago.
John
5quote author=GST link=topic=137491.msg1206952#msg1206952 date=1612626330]
I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.
[/quote]
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I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.
I thought the same thing and have calibrated paper since the fault developed. Sadly it hasn't made any difference. I don't remotely understand why...
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Hi Brett - Not my intention to make you feel intimidated in any way - sorry if I have done so inadvertently. As long as your printer is no longer in warranty, it's fine to use expired inks as long as they are OEM HP inks. I use expired inks in my printers that are are no longer warrantied.
OK, so all of the above still leads me to think your printer is ok, but that the MK-R printhead is still the culprit. This could mean the channels as well.
First: Your printer is operating properly - it powers up and initializes.
Second: The diagnostic image shows everything is working correctly, but there are print head issues. I'm sure you have visited THIS PAGE (http://z3200.com/Cleaning_HP-Z3200_Print_Heads_Manually.htm) but it might be a good idea to re-visit, and to download My PRINTHEAD EXERCISE PRINT (http://z3200.com/images/printhead_cleaning/PRINTHEADS/Printhead_Excercise_Image-Robogravure.jpg)
I would suggest running a printhead cleaning on the MK-R printhead, then printing several 8x10 patches of MK and Red that you make up. The idea is to force ink through the printhead and lines.
Then print the exercise print a few times.
Before going to a diagnostic print, go ahead and print a known print that you are very familiar with and see how it does.
If it seems to print ok, keep printing.
The fact that you had the printer turned off for extended periods isn't good, but it's not the end of the world.
Just for your own information, while I do use expired inks, I mostly don't use expired printheads. I buy them new from HP and know I can call support even on an out of warranty printer if the printhead is suspect.
My plan after all this, would be to replace the MK-R printhead. Your printheads are pretty old - not to say they won't work, but they can cause problems in my experience when they are over three years old. Not always, but often.
If this was my printer, after I got the printer printing, I would buy all new printheads, and install those printheads and full cartridges using the technique I outlined in Reply #4 in this thread.
Importantly, I would do another cleaning of the printhead contacts in the carriage before re-installing the printheads and cartridges.
The way I look at it, is that in lieu of changing the carriage, careful cleaning can often clear problems. If you have new printheads and expired inks, they can still be used if you eventually change the carriage.
I come to these conclusions thinking that your printer is mostly working fine.
I'd go at it this way based on my experience with these machines since 2004-5. HP normally just replaces parts and that's fine under warranty, but we have to make do more and more now.
FYI: I'm using Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on the newest Z3200ps, and TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on another Z3200ps printer not under warranty. My Z3100 is under a sheet in storage, another Z3200ps 44" is pulled apart waiting for me to finish rebuilding, and a Z3200 24" has an older firmware that doesn't apply here. All the 44" Z3200ps printers are Rev B machines.
The 24" Z3200 is a Rev A machine with Firmware: TR12-RB_11.0.0.3
I run several computers in my studio, about 5 Macs and 4 Windows machines. I mostly print from my main editing machine - Mojave 10.14.2
I think you're doing fine Brett - I've outlined what I would do before replacing your carriage and pulling things apart. I usually find that forcing ink usually does the trick. Granted it can be a pain, but in many cases, as long as the printer is running it often works.
Best wishes Brett -
Mark
Many thanks for this Mark,
I shall do precisely as you suggest.
The only concern I have is that the carriage assembly does actually fail if I run the Diagnostic test on it. I listed the issues way back at the beginning of the thread but it might be worth pasting it again:
"if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355."
That's bearing in mind the ESP passes when tested on its own and is new (replaced as a precaution to see if it was causing the problem).
Also, even more bizarrely, if I make a patch of pure black in Photoshop and print it (same file type, same paper etc). It prints fine. I've attached a photo (ignore all of the tone variations. That's just due to the lighting).
However I shall thoroughly force the ink as you suggest and report back.
Many thanks
Brett
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[Did you shake your ink carts? If not I bet that is your problem. All ink carts need to be shaken periodically. All pigments settle and become separate from their base eventually. We don’t notice usually because we use them up so quickly. The only exception to this is the Canon IPF Prograph printers which have a strong ink mixing mechanism built into the printer. I bet if you shake those carts, then do one head cleaning you’ll see a difference.
Come to think about it I had this same problem with the MK channel many years ago.
John
5quote author=GST link=topic=137491.msg1206952#msg1206952 date=1612626330]
I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.
Yes I've given them a thorough shake (all bagged up) but it hasn't solved the issue. If I was a marginally stronger individual, I'd lift the entire machine above my head and shake it violently with the inks installed! ;)
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Many thanks for this Mark,
I shall do precisely as you suggest.
The only concern I have is that the carriage assembly does actually fail if I run the Diagnostic test on it. I listed the issues way back at the beginning of the thread but it might be worth pasting it again:
"if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355."
That's bearing in mind the ESP passes when tested on its own and is new (replaced as a precaution to see if it was causing the problem).
Also, even more bizarrely, if I make a patch of pure black in Photoshop and print it (same file type, same paper etc). It prints fine. I've attached a photo (ignore all of the tone variations. That's just due to the lighting).
However I shall thoroughly force the ink as you suggest and report back.
Many thanks
Brett
Diagnostic test failures can be common Brett. If you can get your printer running and printing, the proof will be there that it's fine. If not, you may have to start replacing parts, but I sure wouldn't go down that road unless you know what you're doing. Bob Wert is excellent, if you need to replace parts. Give it the old college try and see if you can clear it first, OK?
Don't get hung up in the diagnostic testing at this point - it's like pulling up the plant to check its' roots to see if it's growing.
Best,
Mark
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Oh well, I was hoping it would be something simple before replacing the carriage assembly, which is looking like what you will have to do.
The strange thing though is when you print a small black square it works fine. That’s just bizarre. The last two things I would do is reprofile and recalibrate it if you haven’t already. Probably have. Then I would run rectangles about 30x40 with total black and total red, if you haven’t already, hopefully with new ink, a couple of them to flush out everything in the lines including possible air bubbles
Yes I've given them a thorough shake (all bagged up) but it hasn't solved the issue. If I was a marginally stronger individual, I'd lift the entire machine above my head and shake it violently with the inks installed! ;)
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Oh well, I was hoping it would be something simple before replacing the carriage assembly, which is looking like what you will have to do.
The strange thing though is when you print a small black square it works fine. That’s just bizarre. The last two things I would do is reprofile and recalibrate it if you haven’t already. Probably have. Then I would run rectangles about 30x40 with total black and total red, if you haven’t already, hopefully with new ink, a couple of them to flush out everything in the lines including possible air bubbles
I still think there's hope John. Been there many times before with this exact situation (nothing is exact with Z's, right) and eventually it pulled through and started working like a champ again. Force ink, force ink - it may get there yet.
-M
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What if the spectro itself is faulty, creates wrong calibration data and compensates colors in the wrong way?
There is an option in the service menu to test, but i am not sure if this is realiable.
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I doubt that. But an easy way to check would be to use a generic profile and choose a media setting ( linearization ) done in the past for a similar paper. As long as it was profiled and calibrated before the problem started the spectro wouldn’t play a role at all.
What if the spectro itself is faulty, creates wrong calibration data and compensates colors in the wrong way?
There is an option in the service menu to test, but i am not sure if this is realiable.
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I am back with an update!
My first move has been to print the printhead exercise print from Mark's brilliant site. I wanted a 'before and after' print for comparison, so thought it best to print the 'before' version asap.
I was struck, yet again, with how rich and good the MK printed! It seems to print OK on tests like that (and when I have made test sheets in photoshop) but then in a more complicated file or the internal Diagnostic Image. It fails to print.
So before spending too long forcing ink through the printhead, I found the latest firmware that is available to my Mac-based system for a Rev A (TR12-RB_15.0.0.2). It is the same as the firmware currently installed. However I managed to re-install it. I then recalibrated the paper (yet again) and created a new profile. I had already replaced the colour sensor earlier, so I was hopeful that it was reading OK.
Strange to say, after doing this, the Diagnostic image still prints with the same fault but now all of the more complex images that suffered before are printing correctly. The machine can be used once more! I really don't know what to say because the Diagnostic image still isn't as saturated as previously.
I called HP yesterday to see if they would send out a new MK-R printhead under warranty. They made me email them every page of internal imformation from the printer. Then they phoned me back and said a new printhead was being sent.
So, overall, I'm still scratching my head but delighted to have my Z3200 back in use.
Many thanks indeed to everyone for your help - especially Mark. I have no idea whether anybody reading this thread in the future will be assisted or not!
If anybody can explain what I've just experienced, I'd be very happy to learn!
Thanks again.
Brett
https://Whose-Art.com
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I am back with an update!
My first move has been to print the printhead exercise print from Mark's brilliant site. I wanted a 'before and after' print for comparison, so thought it best to print the 'before' version asap.
I was struck, yet again, with how rich and good the MK printed! It seems to print OK on tests like that (and when I have made test sheets in photoshop) but then in a more complicated file or the internal Diagnostic Image. It fails to print.
So before spending too long forcing ink through the printhead, I found the latest firmware that is available to my Mac-based system for a Rev A (TR12-RB_15.0.0.2). It is the same as the firmware currently installed. However I managed to re-install it. I then recalibrated the paper (yet again) and created a new profile. I had already replaced the colour sensor earlier, so I was hopeful that it was reading OK.
Strange to say, after doing this, the Diagnostic image still prints with the same fault but now all of the more complex images that suffered before are printing correctly. The machine can be used once more! I really don't know what to say because the Diagnostic image still isn't as saturated as previously.
I called HP yesterday to see if they would send out a new MK-R printhead under warranty. They made me email them every page of internal imformation from the printer. Then they phoned me back and said a new printhead was being sent.
So, overall, I'm still scratching my head but delighted to have my Z3200 back in use.
Many thanks indeed to everyone for your help - especially Mark. I have no idea whether anybody reading this thread in the future will be assisted or not!
If anybody can explain what I've just experienced, I'd be very happy to learn!
Thanks again.
Brett
https://Whose-Art.com
Thanks for the update Brett. Just keep printing - make prints to keep or sell and use your printer. What you have experienced is the flukiness of the Z3200 series printer. A couple of good things to note: HP will indeed support our ink purchases - (as long as no non-oem hp inks were used), and mostly, if pushed they will offer tech support, but it's a pain to get there with just a bad ink cart. Z3200's often fail diagnostic tests and the diagnostic chart is only good to a point. Knowing how to read it is very important.
If you can't print images frequently, after all that you've been through, I would suggest printing the exercise chart often on cheap paper. For all of us, given the EOL cycle that these printers are in, the more we can do to keep them running, the better.
So glad to hear you have it back running. Keep a copy of that Firmware for future use if needed again.
Firmware could be a factor - HP changed all when the Z6/Z9 printers came out with a new HP Utility. They wanted all printers to work under the one utility - it was something I personally debated with them, to leave well enough alone, but they wanted it all under one roof. BTW - you can install an earlier version of Utility for your Z3200 and it will work fine.
Z's are funny. One day they are working, then a power outage or something weird happens and they go down. Then fooling with them and what do you know, back up and running. The key thing to remember is not to give up hope. So often forcing ink is the answer if the printer is running. Eventually, it will clear out and run again.
If you want a nice clean diagnostic image, get a 2' wide sheet of high gloss and use a stock hp profile. Should print beautifully.\
If it doesn't, and you can still print, and the prints look great - don't look at the diagnostic chart. It can drive you crazy.
I've had 3 Jaguars in my life, and when they went down they went down hard. Often it meant going through everything and eventually they would come back to life. The Z's are like Jags in the printer world. Lucas elctrics and all.... ::)
Congrats - and again, thanks from all of us for the update. Happy printing.
Best,
Mark
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Hi Brett - Not my intention to make you feel intimidated in any way - sorry if I have done so inadvertently. As long as your printer is no longer in warranty, it's fine to use expired inks as long as they are OEM HP inks. I use expired inks in my printers that are are no longer warrantied.
OK, so all of the above still leads me to think your printer is ok, but that the MK-R printhead is still the culprit. This could mean the channels as well.
First: Your printer is operating properly - it powers up and initializes.
Second: The diagnostic image shows everything is working correctly, but there are print head issues. I'm sure you have visited THIS PAGE (http://z3200.com/Cleaning_HP-Z3200_Print_Heads_Manually.htm) but it might be a good idea to re-visit, and to download My PRINTHEAD EXERCISE PRINT (http://z3200.com/images/printhead_cleaning/PRINTHEADS/Printhead_Excercise_Image-Robogravure.jpg)
I would suggest running a printhead cleaning on the MK-R printhead, then printing several 8x10 patches of MK and Red that you make up. The idea is to force ink through the printhead and lines.
Then print the exercise print a few times.
Before going to a diagnostic print, go ahead and print a known print that you are very familiar with and see how it does.
If it seems to print ok, keep printing.
The fact that you had the printer turned off for extended periods isn't good, but it's not the end of the world.
Just for your own information, while I do use expired inks, I mostly don't use expired printheads. I buy them new from HP and know I can call support even on an out of warranty printer if the printhead is suspect.
My plan after all this, would be to replace the MK-R printhead. Your printheads are pretty old - not to say they won't work, but they can cause problems in my experience when they are over three years old. Not always, but often.
If this was my printer, after I got the printer printing, I would buy all new printheads, and install those printheads and full cartridges using the technique I outlined in Reply #4 in this thread.
Importantly, I would do another cleaning of the printhead contacts in the carriage before re-installing the printheads and cartridges.
The way I look at it, is that in lieu of changing the carriage, careful cleaning can often clear problems. If you have new printheads and expired inks, they can still be used if you eventually change the carriage.
I come to these conclusions thinking that your printer is mostly working fine.
I'd go at it this way based on my experience with these machines since 2004-5. HP normally just replaces parts and that's fine under warranty, but we have to make do more and more now.
FYI: I'm using Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on the newest Z3200ps, and TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on another Z3200ps printer not under warranty. My Z3100 is under a sheet in storage, another Z3200ps 44" is pulled apart waiting for me to finish rebuilding, and a Z3200 24" has an older firmware that doesn't apply here. All the 44" Z3200ps printers are Rev B machines.
The 24" Z3200 is a Rev A machine with Firmware: TR12-RB_11.0.0.3
I run several computers in my studio, about 5 Macs and 4 Windows machines. I mostly print from my main editing machine - Mojave 10.14.2
I think you're doing fine Brett - I've outlined what I would do before replacing your carriage and pulling things apart. I usually find that forcing ink usually does the trick. Granted it can be a pain, but in many cases, as long as the printer is running it often works.
Best wishes Brett -
Mark
OK< ths s the info I am looking for I think :-) Yes Brett, this is likely going to help my banding issue. I'll let you know, but I was looking for some suggestions from Mark.
Thanks!