Designjet Z3200 PS - Faulty Carriage PCA?

[Mark Lindquist]

Mark,

I feel a bit like a guilty student summoned to the Principal's office - and not without reason!  I buy my consumables in bulk and then they sit until required. So I'm definitely using expired inks etc. Though I must admit, I have been told many times that the ink expiry date isn't an issue? That's why I've happily gone down that route.

Hi Brett - Not my intention to make you feel intimidated in any way - sorry if I have done so inadvertently. As long as your printer is no longer in warranty, it's fine to use expired inks as long as they are OEM HP inks. I use expired inks in my printers that are are no longer warrantied.

In terms of the ink levels: This problem has been ongoing since late November. So a lot of test images and diagnostics have been printed in the meantime. I mean loads. So the inks have all at some stage been 80% or more whilst the problem has been ongoing. Some have been replaced in that time.

I totally agree about the MK-R printhead appearing faulty. It's only the fact that I changed the printhead in the hope that it might fix the issue, that makes me think that's not the problem. I had exactly the same issues with the previous printhead. Having said that, i'm going to get it replaced under warranty anyway as a precaution. Plus it's been reseated so many times that the little blue handle has broken off!

Anyway, here is all the requested information. The printer has worked faultlessly before with inks etc that have expired by similar margins. So I'm hoping this isn't the problem. However I carry spares of all inks (sadly, many expired by now) so can replace any in an instant.

OK, so all of the above still leads me to think your printer is ok, but that the MK-R printhead is still the culprit. This could mean the channels as well.

First: Your printer is operating properly - it powers up and initializes.
Second: The diagnostic image shows everything is working correctly, but there are print head issues. I'm sure you have visited THIS PAGE but it might be a good idea to re-visit, and to download My PRINTHEAD EXERCISE PRINT

I would suggest running a printhead cleaning on the MK-R printhead, then printing several 8x10 patches of MK and Red that you make up. The idea is to force ink through the  printhead and lines.
Then print the exercise print a few times.

Before going to a diagnostic print, go ahead and print a known print that you are very familiar with and see how it does.

If it seems to print ok, keep printing.

The fact that you had the printer turned off for extended periods isn't good, but it's not the end of the world.

Just for your own information, while I do use expired inks, I mostly don't use expired printheads. I buy them new from HP and know I can call support even on an out of warranty printer if the printhead is suspect.

My plan after all this, would be to replace the MK-R printhead. Your printheads are pretty old - not to say they won't work, but they can cause problems in my experience when they are over three years old. Not always, but often.

If this was my printer, after I got the printer printing, I would buy all new printheads, and install those printheads and full cartridges using the technique I outlined in Reply #4 in this thread.

Importantly, I would do another cleaning of the printhead contacts in the carriage before re-installing the printheads and cartridges.

The way I look at it, is that in lieu of changing the carriage, careful cleaning can often clear problems. If you have new printheads and expired inks, they can still be used if you eventually change the carriage.

I come to these conclusions thinking that your printer is mostly working fine.

I'd go at it this way based on my experience with these machines since 2004-5.  HP normally just replaces parts and that's fine under warranty, but we have to make do more and more now.

FYI: I'm using Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on the newest Z3200ps, and TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on another Z3200ps printer not under warranty. My Z3100 is under a sheet in storage, another Z3200ps 44" is pulled apart waiting for me to finish rebuilding, and a Z3200 24" has an older firmware that doesn't apply here. All the 44" Z3200ps printers are Rev B machines.

The 24" Z3200 is a Rev A machine with Firmware: TR12-RB_11.0.0.3

I run several computers in my studio, about 5 Macs and 4 Windows machines. I mostly print from my main editing machine - Mojave 10.14.2

I think you're doing fine Brett - I've outlined what I would do before replacing your carriage and pulling things apart. I usually find that forcing ink usually does the trick. Granted it can be a pain, but in many cases, as long as the printer is running it often works.

Best wishes Brett -

Mark

[deanwork]

[Did you shake your ink carts? If not I bet that is your problem. All ink carts need to be shaken periodically. All pigments settle and become separate from their base eventually. We don’t notice usually because we use them up so quickly. The only exception to this is the Canon IPF Prograph printers which have a strong ink mixing mechanism built into the printer. I bet if you shake those carts, then do one head cleaning you’ll see a difference.


Come to think about it I had this same problem with the MK channel many years ago.

John

5quote author=GST link=topic=137491.msg1206952#msg1206952 date=1612626330]
I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.
[/quote]

[Brett L]

I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.

I thought the same thing and have calibrated paper since the fault developed. Sadly it hasn't made any difference. I don't remotely understand why...

[Brett L]

Hi Brett - Not my intention to make you feel intimidated in any way - sorry if I have done so inadvertently. As long as your printer is no longer in warranty, it's fine to use expired inks as long as they are OEM HP inks. I use expired inks in my printers that are are no longer warrantied.

OK, so all of the above still leads me to think your printer is ok, but that the MK-R printhead is still the culprit. This could mean the channels as well.

First: Your printer is operating properly - it powers up and initializes.
Second: The diagnostic image shows everything is working correctly, but there are print head issues. I'm sure you have visited THIS PAGE but it might be a good idea to re-visit, and to download My PRINTHEAD EXERCISE PRINT

I would suggest running a printhead cleaning on the MK-R printhead, then printing several 8x10 patches of MK and Red that you make up. The idea is to force ink through the  printhead and lines.
Then print the exercise print a few times.

Before going to a diagnostic print, go ahead and print a known print that you are very familiar with and see how it does.

If it seems to print ok, keep printing.

The fact that you had the printer turned off for extended periods isn't good, but it's not the end of the world.

Just for your own information, while I do use expired inks, I mostly don't use expired printheads. I buy them new from HP and know I can call support even on an out of warranty printer if the printhead is suspect.

My plan after all this, would be to replace the MK-R printhead. Your printheads are pretty old - not to say they won't work, but they can cause problems in my experience when they are over three years old. Not always, but often.

If this was my printer, after I got the printer printing, I would buy all new printheads, and install those printheads and full cartridges using the technique I outlined in Reply #4 in this thread.

Importantly, I would do another cleaning of the printhead contacts in the carriage before re-installing the printheads and cartridges.

The way I look at it, is that in lieu of changing the carriage, careful cleaning can often clear problems. If you have new printheads and expired inks, they can still be used if you eventually change the carriage.

I come to these conclusions thinking that your printer is mostly working fine.

I'd go at it this way based on my experience with these machines since 2004-5.  HP normally just replaces parts and that's fine under warranty, but we have to make do more and more now.

FYI: I'm using Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on the newest Z3200ps, and TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on another Z3200ps printer not under warranty. My Z3100 is under a sheet in storage, another Z3200ps 44" is pulled apart waiting for me to finish rebuilding, and a Z3200 24" has an older firmware that doesn't apply here. All the 44" Z3200ps printers are Rev B machines.

The 24" Z3200 is a Rev A machine with Firmware: TR12-RB_11.0.0.3

I run several computers in my studio, about 5 Macs and 4 Windows machines. I mostly print from my main editing machine - Mojave 10.14.2

I think you're doing fine Brett - I've outlined what I would do before replacing your carriage and pulling things apart. I usually find that forcing ink usually does the trick. Granted it can be a pain, but in many cases, as long as the printer is running it often works.

Best wishes Brett -

Mark

Many thanks for this Mark,

I shall do precisely as you suggest.

The only concern I have is that the carriage assembly does actually fail if I run the Diagnostic test on it. I listed the issues way back at the beginning of the thread but it might be worth pasting it again:

"if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355."

That's bearing in mind the ESP passes when tested on its own and is new (replaced as a precaution to see if it was causing the problem).

Also, even more bizarrely, if I make a patch of pure black in Photoshop and print it (same file type, same paper etc). It prints fine. I've attached a photo (ignore all of the tone variations. That's just due to the lighting).

However I shall thoroughly force the ink as you suggest and report back.

Many thanks

Brett

[Brett L]

[Did you shake your ink carts? If not I bet that is your problem. All ink carts need to be shaken periodically. All pigments settle and become separate from their base eventually. We don’t notice usually because we use them up so quickly. The only exception to this is the Canon IPF Prograph printers which have a strong ink mixing mechanism built into the printer. I bet if you shake those carts, then do one head cleaning you’ll see a difference.


Come to think about it I had this same problem with the MK channel many years ago.

John



5quote author=GST link=topic=137491.msg1206952#msg1206952 date=1612626330]
I´m using mostly expired inks and old printheads, way older than yours. I cant imagine this to be causing color shifts.
Were you able to calibrate some papers in this state? This should either fix it or fail completely.

Yes I've given them a thorough shake (all bagged up) but it hasn't solved the issue. If I was a marginally stronger individual, I'd lift the entire machine above my head and shake it violently with the inks installed! 

[Mark Lindquist]

Many thanks for this Mark,

I shall do precisely as you suggest.

The only concern I have is that the carriage assembly does actually fail if I run the Diagnostic test on it. I listed the issues way back at the beginning of the thread but it might be worth pasting it again:

"if I run a diagnostic of the Carriage Assembly the test fails on several things - including the ESP with a 58:11 'DeltaE out of limits'. The ESP is correctly seated. The Carriage assembly also fails on a PCA rev of 2.313 (apparently the value should fall between 0.823 and 1.005). Also the carriage voltage (+VS) should read between 43.6 and 46.3. Mine is 32.355."

That's bearing in mind the ESP passes when tested on its own and is new (replaced as a precaution to see if it was causing the problem).

Also, even more bizarrely, if I make a patch of pure black in Photoshop and print it (same file type, same paper etc). It prints fine. I've attached a photo (ignore all of the tone variations. That's just due to the lighting).

However I shall thoroughly force the ink as you suggest and report back.

Many thanks

Brett

Diagnostic test failures can be common Brett.  If you can get your printer running and printing, the proof will be there that it's fine. If not, you may have to start replacing parts, but I sure wouldn't go down that road unless you know what you're doing. Bob Wert is excellent, if you need to replace parts. Give it the old college try and see if you can clear it first, OK?

Don't get hung up in the diagnostic testing at this point - it's like pulling up the plant to check its' roots to see if it's growing.

Best,

Mark

[deanwork]

Oh well, I was hoping it would be something simple before replacing the carriage assembly, which is looking like what you will have to do.

The strange thing though is when you print a small black square it works fine. That’s just bizarre. The last two things I would do is reprofile and recalibrate it if you haven’t already. Probably have. Then I would run rectangles about 30x40 with total black and total red, if you haven’t already, hopefully with new ink, a couple of them to flush out everything in the lines including possible air bubbles

Yes I've given them a thorough shake (all bagged up) but it hasn't solved the issue. If I was a marginally stronger individual, I'd lift the entire machine above my head and shake it violently with the inks installed! 

[Mark Lindquist]

Oh well, I was hoping it would be something simple before replacing the carriage assembly, which is looking like what you will have to do.

The strange thing though is when you print a small black square it works fine. That’s just bizarre. The last two things I would do is reprofile and recalibrate it if you haven’t already. Probably have. Then I would run rectangles about 30x40 with total black and total red, if you haven’t already, hopefully with new ink, a couple of them to flush out everything in the lines including possible air bubbles

I still think there's hope John.  Been there many times before with this exact situation (nothing is exact with Z's, right) and eventually it pulled through and started working like a champ again. Force ink, force ink - it may get there yet.

-M

[GST]

What if the spectro itself is faulty, creates wrong calibration data and compensates colors in the wrong way?
There is an option in the service menu to test, but i am not sure if this is realiable.

[deanwork]

I doubt that. But an easy way to check would be to use a generic profile and choose a media setting  ( linearization ) done in the past for a similar paper. As long as it was profiled and calibrated before the problem started the spectro wouldn’t play a role at all.

What if the spectro itself is faulty, creates wrong calibration data and compensates colors in the wrong way?
There is an option in the service menu to test, but i am not sure if this is realiable.

[Brett L]

I am back with an update!

My first move has been to print the printhead exercise print from Mark's brilliant site. I wanted a 'before and after' print for comparison, so thought it best to print the 'before' version asap.

I was struck, yet again, with how rich and good the MK printed! It seems to print OK on tests like that (and when I have made test sheets in photoshop) but then in a more complicated file or the internal Diagnostic Image. It fails to print.

So before spending too long forcing ink through the printhead, I found the latest firmware that is available to my Mac-based system for a Rev A (TR12-RB_15.0.0.2). It is the same as the firmware currently installed. However I managed to re-install it. I then recalibrated the paper (yet again) and created a new profile. I had already replaced the colour sensor earlier, so I was hopeful that it was reading OK.

Strange to say, after doing this, the Diagnostic image still prints with the same fault but now all of the more complex images that suffered before are printing correctly. The machine can be used once more! I really don't know what to say because the Diagnostic image still isn't as saturated as previously.

I called HP yesterday to see if they would send out a new MK-R printhead under warranty. They made me email them every page of internal imformation from the printer. Then they phoned me back and said a new printhead was being sent.

So, overall, I'm still scratching my head but delighted to have my Z3200 back in use.

Many thanks indeed to everyone for your help - especially Mark. I have no idea whether anybody reading this thread in the future will be assisted or not!

If anybody can explain what I've just experienced, I'd be very happy to learn!

Thanks again.

Brett

https://Whose-Art.com

[Mark Lindquist]

I am back with an update!

My first move has been to print the printhead exercise print from Mark's brilliant site. I wanted a 'before and after' print for comparison, so thought it best to print the 'before' version asap.

I was struck, yet again, with how rich and good the MK printed! It seems to print OK on tests like that (and when I have made test sheets in photoshop) but then in a more complicated file or the internal Diagnostic Image. It fails to print.

So before spending too long forcing ink through the printhead, I found the latest firmware that is available to my Mac-based system for a Rev A (TR12-RB_15.0.0.2). It is the same as the firmware currently installed. However I managed to re-install it. I then recalibrated the paper (yet again) and created a new profile. I had already replaced the colour sensor earlier, so I was hopeful that it was reading OK.

Strange to say, after doing this, the Diagnostic image still prints with the same fault but now all of the more complex images that suffered before are printing correctly. The machine can be used once more! I really don't know what to say because the Diagnostic image still isn't as saturated as previously.

I called HP yesterday to see if they would send out a new MK-R printhead under warranty. They made me email them every page of internal imformation from the printer. Then they phoned me back and said a new printhead was being sent.

So, overall, I'm still scratching my head but delighted to have my Z3200 back in use.

Many thanks indeed to everyone for your help - especially Mark. I have no idea whether anybody reading this thread in the future will be assisted or not!

If anybody can explain what I've just experienced, I'd be very happy to learn!

Thanks again.

Brett

https://Whose-Art.com

Thanks for the update Brett.  Just keep printing - make prints to keep or sell and use your printer. What you have experienced is the flukiness of the Z3200 series printer.  A couple of good things to note: HP will indeed support our ink purchases - (as long as no  non-oem hp inks were used), and mostly, if pushed they will offer tech support, but it's a pain to get there with just a bad ink cart. Z3200's often fail diagnostic tests and the diagnostic chart is only good to a point. Knowing how to read it is very important.
If you can't print images frequently, after all that you've been through, I would suggest printing the exercise chart often on cheap paper. For all of us, given the EOL cycle that these printers are in, the more we can do to keep them running, the better.

So glad to hear you have it back running. Keep a copy of that Firmware for future use if needed again.

Firmware could be a factor - HP changed all when the Z6/Z9 printers came out with a new HP Utility. They wanted all printers to work under the one utility - it was something I personally debated with them, to leave well enough alone, but they wanted it all under one roof. BTW - you can install an earlier version of Utility for your Z3200 and it will work fine.

Z's are funny.  One day they are working, then a power outage or something weird happens and they go down. Then fooling with them and what do you know, back up and running. The key thing to remember is not to give up hope. So often forcing ink is the answer if the printer is running. Eventually, it will clear out and run again.

If you want a nice clean diagnostic image, get a 2' wide sheet of high gloss and use a stock hp profile. Should print beautifully.\
If it doesn't, and you can still print, and the prints look great - don't look at the diagnostic chart. It can drive you crazy.

I've had 3 Jaguars in my life, and when they went down they went down hard. Often it meant going through everything and eventually they would come back to life. The Z's are like Jags in the printer world. Lucas elctrics and all....

Congrats - and again, thanks from all of us for the update. Happy printing.

Best,

Mark

[RaffiCoffee]

Hi Brett - Not my intention to make you feel intimidated in any way - sorry if I have done so inadvertently. As long as your printer is no longer in warranty, it's fine to use expired inks as long as they are OEM HP inks. I use expired inks in my printers that are are no longer warrantied.

OK, so all of the above still leads me to think your printer is ok, but that the MK-R printhead is still the culprit. This could mean the channels as well.

First: Your printer is operating properly - it powers up and initializes.
Second: The diagnostic image shows everything is working correctly, but there are print head issues. I'm sure you have visited THIS PAGE but it might be a good idea to re-visit, and to download My PRINTHEAD EXERCISE PRINT

I would suggest running a printhead cleaning on the MK-R printhead, then printing several 8x10 patches of MK and Red that you make up. The idea is to force ink through the  printhead and lines.
Then print the exercise print a few times.

Before going to a diagnostic print, go ahead and print a known print that you are very familiar with and see how it does.

If it seems to print ok, keep printing.

The fact that you had the printer turned off for extended periods isn't good, but it's not the end of the world.

Just for your own information, while I do use expired inks, I mostly don't use expired printheads. I buy them new from HP and know I can call support even on an out of warranty printer if the printhead is suspect.

My plan after all this, would be to replace the MK-R printhead. Your printheads are pretty old - not to say they won't work, but they can cause problems in my experience when they are over three years old. Not always, but often.

If this was my printer, after I got the printer printing, I would buy all new printheads, and install those printheads and full cartridges using the technique I outlined in Reply #4 in this thread.

Importantly, I would do another cleaning of the printhead contacts in the carriage before re-installing the printheads and cartridges.

The way I look at it, is that in lieu of changing the carriage, careful cleaning can often clear problems. If you have new printheads and expired inks, they can still be used if you eventually change the carriage.

I come to these conclusions thinking that your printer is mostly working fine.

I'd go at it this way based on my experience with these machines since 2004-5.  HP normally just replaces parts and that's fine under warranty, but we have to make do more and more now.

FYI: I'm using Firmware TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on the newest Z3200ps, and TR12-RB_16.0.1.1 on another Z3200ps printer not under warranty. My Z3100 is under a sheet in storage, another Z3200ps 44" is pulled apart waiting for me to finish rebuilding, and a Z3200 24" has an older firmware that doesn't apply here. All the 44" Z3200ps printers are Rev B machines.

The 24" Z3200 is a Rev A machine with Firmware: TR12-RB_11.0.0.3

I run several computers in my studio, about 5 Macs and 4 Windows machines. I mostly print from my main editing machine - Mojave 10.14.2

I think you're doing fine Brett - I've outlined what I would do before replacing your carriage and pulling things apart. I usually find that forcing ink usually does the trick. Granted it can be a pain, but in many cases, as long as the printer is running it often works.

Best wishes Brett -

Mark

OK< ths s the info I am looking for I think :-)  Yes Brett, this is likely going to help my banding issue. I'll let you know, but I was looking for some suggestions from Mark.

Thanks!