Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Rob C on January 30, 2020, 02:55:41 pm
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The last night I go to bed as a European. Tomorrow night I do the same thing as just another expat Brit out on the margins. Soon, it may be as just another tiny, expat Scot. To think I had the right to wander a continent without a concern in my mind, and somebody threw it all away for me.
That annoys the hell out of me; it was neither of my doing nor of my choosing. Ain't modern politics wunnerful...
Rob
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The last night I go to bed as a European. Tomorrow night I do the same thing as just another expat Brit out on the margins. Soon, it may be as just another tiny, expat Scot. To think I had the right to wander a continent without a concern in my mind, and somebody threw it all away for me.
That annoys the hell out of me; it was neither of my doing nor of my choosing. Ain't modern politics wunnerful...
Rob
Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)
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Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)
Wasn't that suppose to happen a couple of years ago after voting to leave?
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Actually, today I read a report in Spiegel that UK economy is doing quite well, although at a lower pace than before 2016.
translated:
The UK labor market has been developing positively since 2016. Unemployment has fallen and the UK economy has even created many new jobs in the past three years.
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/brexit-bilanz-der-milliardenschaden-den-die-briten-kaum-spueren-a-06014cd7-4924-4489-962d-efc78bb796a3
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As it takes time for economies to grow, so it takes time to tank.
I believe that until it actually happened, people didn't think that Brexit would. Anyway, the growth prospect has been cut back to 1 point something. For a service economy, it seems strange to have put the financial centre into the straightjacket that it has, though I guess those guys will just move and continue along as if nothing much has happened.
That said, car production has plummeted again, though it could be factors beyond Brexit.
Rob
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Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)
God no! There are enough religious problems contained within the northern Ireland and within Scotland, too, all developed from the feud between Protestants and Catholics. Pretty much the western Sunni v Shiite model, as it were. It's messy enough when in a single country, expanded into an alliance of like minds cultures, it would be very explosive and unstable but on a greater scale than when isolated a little bit. Think of it as those petrol tanks with foam separation.
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Rob,
There's a book you might enjoy (although enjoy may not be exactly the right word). The title is "Enlightenment 2.0", by a U of Toronto philosophy professor named Joseph Heath. He addresses precisely this thread's topic, Extreme Politics. He comes at it from a historic and philosophical point of view, not a lot of current events in it. I am about to read it again.
He also maintains a blog in which he receives lots of contributions from others (http://induecourse.ca (http://induecourse.ca)), although activity on it has decreased markedly in the last year or two. There is a bit of Canadian content that may not be of much interest to you, but most of the discussion is more general.
Speculation on the UK economy based on what happened today or what will happen next week is beside the point. These are long-term strategic decisions and their outcomes won't be known for years. In the meantime, I hope that people in your situation don't get caught up in some bureaucratic crossfire that screws up your pension, health or residency benefits. I hear from one of those "document leaks" we hear about in the news that Panama may be a good place in which to disappear, should the need arise.
And since I'm recommending books, I hear that John Le Carré's latest (Agent Running in the Field) does a fun job of skewering the Brexit side. I am on a wait list for it from my library. From here in Ottawa, I can say that there is no one I know who understands why the UK wanted to leave the European community in the first place. I've read many online comments from people who don't strike me as knowing anything much about it (on this forum especially), and one theme that came up was the idea of British sovereignty being a motivation. I have never heard anyone describe why that isn't true of every other country in the union. From what I can tell, fierce independence is a pretty widespread phenomenon. But I'm sure there's an explanation.
Best of luck.
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Rob,
There's a book you might enjoy (although enjoy may not be exactly the right word). The title is "Enlightenment 2.0", by a U of Toronto philosophy professor named Joseph Heath. He addresses precisely this thread's topic, Extreme Politics. He comes at it from a historic and philosophical point of view, not a lot of current events in it. I am about to read it again.
He also maintains a blog in which he receives lots of contributions from others (http://induecourse.ca (http://induecourse.ca)), although activity on it has decreased markedly in the last year or two. There is a bit of Canadian content that may not be of much interest to you, but most of the discussion is more general.
Speculation on the UK economy based on what happened today or what will happen next week is beside the point. These are long-term strategic decisions and their outcomes won't be known for years. In the meantime, I hope that people in your situation don't get caught up in some bureaucratic crossfire that screws up your pension, health or residency benefits. I hear from one of those "document leaks" we hear about in the news that Panama may be a good place in which to disappear, should the need arise.
And since I'm recommending books, I hear that John Le Carré's latest (Agent Running in the Field) does a fun job of skewering the Brexit side. I am on a wait list for it from my library. From here in Ottawa, I can say that there is no one I know who understands why the UK wanted to leave the European community in the first place. I've read many online comments from people who don't strike me as knowing anything much about it (on this forum especially), and one theme that came up was the idea of British sovereignty being a motivation. I have never heard anyone describe why that isn't true of every other country in the union. From what I can tell, fierce independence is a pretty widespread phenomenon. But I'm sure there's an explanation.
Best of luck.
Why did Quebec want independence?
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Buck up, Rob. In a couple of years, you'll be European again, of the Scots variety. And Scotland will continue to thrive, as the British economy goes in the toilet. I'm thinking, why not the Celtic Alliance, as part of the European Union -- Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and maybe, when reality sets in, even Wales. F*ck the Brits. 8-)
That language, even if it did not betray an ignorance of the fact that Scots are British, is unacceptable.
Jeremy
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Why, Robert? To escape the clutches of the proto-totalitarian bureaucratic contraption.
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Why, Robert? To escape the clutches of the proto-totalitarian bureaucratic contraption.
Ha ha ha. I love it. It's the way you tell 'em. Hilarious.
Oh, and Rob, it means we can have bendy bananas and blue passports. Surely that's something to celebrate :-)
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So much for the impeding doom and gloom:
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So much for the impeding doom and gloom:
Yeah, right, try changing your pound in Spain and see what it gets you, I was in the bank this morning.
Rob
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That language, even if it did not betray an ignorance of the fact that Scots are British, is unacceptable.
Jeremy
I was being consoled today at lunch over my vanishing European identity, and also in a passing street conversation with a plumber's merchant I have known for a long time (he's a rock 'n' roll fan too; see how it makes friends and unites people across the world?). They do not seem to observe this as another manifestation of perfidious Albion at play, but far more as a cunning, long-term American ploy to reduce the three global superpowers - the US, China and Europe - to two, via the gradual dismantling of Europe; if anything, they view Brexit with incomprehension, and see Britain embrace a position tantamount to industrial suicide for itself; they wish us well and extend their sympathy. Funny how Russia sees Europe from exactly that same, long-term perspective; divide and conquer.
It's an example of where the cunning powers think years ahead, whereas the dumb ones can't see beyond the next election.
Regarding the Scots as Brits: I don't think I know or knew any Scot who felt that way. Indeed, they are all aware of the legality of the situation, but at gut level, no way do they tend to feel British. It's a concept too removed from the quotidian experience, both culturally, economically as politically.
Some like to quote the result of the last Scottish Independence referendum as some form of proof of Britishness: I'm sorry, it was proof of fiscal understanding, and nothing more.
In fact, it's the apparent inability of the English to understand that the rest of Britain is not England that rankles, and drives nations apart. It's ironic that England understands that sentiment very clearly where it applies to itself, hence voting to quit Europe, but is blind to the fact re. Scottish sentiments. Which, I think, shows that Scotland is able to feel its own sense of nationality, but also appreciate and understand the value of being part of a far greater whole, i.e. Europe.
Regarding John's actual comment: I would distance myself from saying screw the English en masse, simply because in the final analysis, only three percent of them made the critical part of the call to go. That leaves forty-eight percent as pretty clear-sighted and certainly sane.
As for the US/UK trade dream, dream on. Since when did the supplicant call the shots?
Rob
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So much for the impeding doom and gloom:
I guess you also prefer a stronger dollar...Is that really good for the export?
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So now the UK has to set its own standards... but has to comply with those of the EU and the US at the same time...
I read this whole brexit costed the UK already 170miljard $
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k?srnd=premium-europe...
Now the good news...
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A rich Britain and a rich EUrope is good for America as America is for you. We're trading partners. When things are good, we all do good. A rising tide lifts all boats. Remember 2008/2009. We all suffered. THis isn't a zero sum game. That doesn;t mean we aren't competitors in many areas. But competition doesn;t in itself mean anything bad. It makes stronger. No one in America wants to see Britain hurt. The sooner they can get their act together, the better it will be for them and everyone else.
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A rich Britain and a rich EUrope is good for America as America is for you. We're trading partners. When things are good, we all do good. A rising tide lifts all boats. Remember 2008/2009. We all suffered. THis isn't a zero sum game. That doesn;t mean we aren't competitors in many areas. But competition doesn;t in itself mean anything bad. It makes stronger. No one in America wants to see Britain hurt. The sooner they can get their act together, the better it will be for them and everyone else.
Already had that.
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Already had that.
Already had it and it was flawed at the get go.
Bringing up 2008 only points up how flawed, too, were the financial organs that are now supposed to be vitalising some new era of plenty.
Boris needs to think of Japan, of China, of Mexico and not least of all of Canada if he seriously thinks of making deals with Trump, because in the new America it's Trump and not the nation with which countries find themselves embroiled. Those countries represent a cautionary tale of what's on offer to negotiating "partners". You get chewed up.
I watched a few seconds of film where a guy and gal remove the Union Jack from its stand amongst the others. It was like a death in the family. It will return to haunt this generation and deplete the potential of the future ones.
Rob
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You can't blame America fir your economic problems. It's an inside job.
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Welcome!
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Welcome!
That is brilliant! At a stroke, it shows you exactly where Britain now belongs. I'm sure they'll want to strike a brand new trade deal to make Britain Great Again. (Isn't it hard to be original, even for a bloody slogan!)
I saw a pair of legs trampling the EEC flag, and another idiot trying to burn one yesterday on tv. No, not in the Middle East, in Britain. It shows you what the naked Brexiteer mindset has always been about, the truth behind all the fine rhetoric about seeking a better path forward, the wish to remain on friendly terms with the group it has just left. Sorry, it is deep, deep zenophobia fuelled by self-serving politicians making even greater fortunes out of the misery and damage they are bringing to the rest of the population.
I watched a part of the pre-exit hours on france24.com and they had a shrill lady from the Brexit publicity front still claiming that yes, the 350 million squids every week for the National Health if we left Europe was numerically the truth; clearly, she didn't catch Nigel, on the very day his lot won the referendum, state that sorry, that had been a mistake. Jesus. Those are the minds that have brought us to this position, and the horrifying part of it is that the island holds enough of them to swing a vote. I'm getting second thoughts about selling up and moving back; one forgets just what it's really all about back there.
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John le Carre on Brexit;
Beautiful written piece
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/feb/01/john-le-carre-breaking-heart-brexit
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John le Carre on Brexit;
Beautiful written piece
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/feb/01/john-le-carre-breaking-heart-brexit
Yes, I would suggest he saw right through all of the lies and misrepresentations, and most certainly, of the creation of a fictitious "enemy". It used to be a band of alien gnomes in Zurich, then when they were forgotten, it became the ones in Brussels and Strasbourg. Welcome to the new, underlying and easily-led England, the old one just unleashed. And yeah, we had one of our own female politician murdered in the street by one of the crazies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37978582
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Bad news across the pond.
Millions Drop Dead As Brexit Finalized (https://babylonbee.com/news/millions-dead-as-brexit-is-finalized)
"Upon returning to the dystopian nightmare of self-determination and not being ruled by an elite group of unelected bureaucrats, millions died on the spot ..."
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Bad news across the pond.
Millions Drop Dead As Brexit Finalized (https://babylonbee.com/news/millions-dead-as-brexit-is-finalized)
"Upon returning to the dystopian nightmare of self-determination and not being ruled by an elite group of unelected bureaucrats, millions died on the spot ..."
That site used to do satire really well (I'm being serious here - they were pretty good at pointing out the goofiness across the spectrum). Now it's just sort of a half-assed onion ripoff that throws [/sarcasm] tags in front of conservative catch phrases.
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That site used to do satire really well (I'm being serious here - they were pretty good at pointing out the goofiness across the spectrum). Now it's just sort of a half-assed onion ripoff that throws [/sarcasm] tags in front of conservative catch phrases.
I thought described the feelings of the opposition quite well. I've had to hear about doom and gloom for Britain for three years now, and still have not seen any evidence of it.
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A lot of countries aren't in the EU and do very well trading with them, traveling, and everything else. Why should the UK be different?
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That is brilliant! At a stroke, it shows you exactly where Britain now belongs. I'm sure they'll want to strike a brand new trade deal to make Britain Great Again. (Isn't it hard to be original, even for a bloody slogan!)
I saw a pair of legs trampling the EEC flag, and another idiot trying to burn one yesterday on tv. No, not in the Middle East, in Britain. It shows you what the naked Brexiteer mindset has always been about, the truth behind all the fine rhetoric about seeking a better path forward, the wish to remain on friendly terms with the group it has just left. Sorry, it is deep, deep zenophobia fuelled by self-serving politicians making even greater fortunes out of the misery and damage they are bringing to the rest of the population.
I watched a part of the pre-exit hours on france24.com and they had a shrill lady from the Brexit publicity front still claiming that yes, the 350 million squids every week for the National Health if we left Europe was numerically the truth; clearly, she didn't catch Nigel, on the very day his lot won the referendum, state that sorry, that had been a mistake. Jesus. Those are the minds that have brought us to this position, and the horrifying part of it is that the island holds enough of them to swing a vote. I'm getting second thoughts about selling up and moving back; one forgets just what it's really all about back there.
I wouldn't worry about those web-based flag burnings. We had them in Canada, big fuss for two minutes or so. It's easy to find a couple of ninnies who are willing to do something dumb on camera. Doesn't mean a thing. Later today, they'll be sober. My guess is that if you handed them any old flag they didn't recognize, they'd burn that. People are willing to get into public fights and risk injury over soccer games, so I find it hard to get too worried about the unwashed are up to.
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A lot of countries aren't in the EU and do very well trading with them, traveling, and everything else. Why should the UK be different?
They were doing well in it too.
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They were doing well in it too.
The Brits are a tough, smart, brave, and resourceful people. Being independent again will bring out these qualities and magnify them. They'll do even better.
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The Brits are a tough, smart, brave, and resourceful people. Being independent again will bring out these qualities and magnify them. They'll do even better.
Let's hope so. Getting rid of one level of bureaucrats should speed up the recovery.
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I thought described the feelings of the opposition quite well. I've had to hear about doom and gloom for Britain for three years now, and still have not seen any evidence of it.
Maybe because you're not directly involved?
Brexit Costs Close To Matching Britain’s Total EU Contributions
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/01/21/brexit-costs-close-to-matching-britains-total-eu-contributions-infographic/
The stunning cost of the U.K.'s long and drawn-out divorce with the European Union has been laid bare by a new analysis from Bloomberg Economics. It found that real GDP losses due to Brexit stood at just over £22 billion in 2017, and that has snowballed ever since. The U.K. is set to finalize its departure from the EU at the end of January and uncertainty about the move has now cost it £130 billion, a figure that's expected to hit £203 billion by the end of 2020.
Putting that into perspective, it's actually close to the amount of money the U.K. has contributed to all EU budgets over the past 47 years, according to Business Insider.
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Divorce is expensive. I know. 🙄
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Let's hope so. Getting rid of one level of bureaucrats should speed up the recovery.
Recovery? From what? It was doing damned well before the über clowns arrived in power through the back door, speaking down to us all with their mouths full of cherries. In London it already had the best financial hub anywhere in Europe and probably the world; it had dragged itself out of the Red Robbo days of unionised destruction of the car industry and was again building lots of cars for foreign brands wanting to sell on into Europe. There were no customs borders, and just-in-time manufacturing chains were well established and worked seamlessly between the island and Germany. Introduce customs, a range of customs duties with the inevitable time delays, and hey, what's that gurgle and tiny cry that I hear from the factory bathroom?
The "bureaucrats" didn't put their fingers in anything; that's one of the major lies and/or misconceptions that people were fed, way before the referendum was a wet dream in certain blue-blooded beds. The rules were set up between the nations, agreed, and 'crats never heard from again. Everybody knew the way to trade and how to behave; the blue collar world was well protected (consider the decline in union membership after joining Europe: those unions were made largely redundant because their members were now protected by law.) The main beneficiaries of unions then became those guys who no longer had jobs that anyone required - stoker in a diesel or electric train, for one; keeping them employed under ridiculous titles and at good levels of pay defeated the rationalisation of labour and work systems and industrial economies. The trains are ever more inefficient and prone to labour disruptions. It was the same under both state as private ownership: the unions run the show, just like Hoffa once ran his teamsters.
Now, as the Tories only had their way at the last election because the natural socialst voters lent them their votes and deserted their old red buddies to get one thing, Brexit, just wait and see how Boris et al. will find themselves manipulated by the left just so they can cling on to the borrowed numbers. Makes me think of Robert Johnson at the crossroads: same friggin' deal. Now it thinks it'll find a Klondike in Trump; anyone here would make a deal with him?
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I saw a pair of legs trampling the EEC flag, and another idiot trying to burn one yesterday on tv. No, not in the Middle East, in Britain. It shows you what the naked Brexiteer mindset has always been about, the truth behind all the fine rhetoric about seeking a better path forward, the wish to remain on friendly terms with the group it has just left. Sorry, it is deep, deep zenophobia fuelled by self-serving politicians making even greater fortunes out of the misery and damage they are bringing to the rest of the population.
I watched a part of the pre-exit hours on france24.com and they had a shrill lady from the Brexit publicity front still claiming that yes, the 350 million squids every week for the National Health if we left Europe was numerically the truth; clearly, she didn't catch Nigel, on the very day his lot won the referendum, state that sorry, that had been a mistake. Jesus. Those are the minds that have brought us to this position, and the horrifying part of it is that the island holds enough of them to swing a vote. I'm getting second thoughts about selling up and moving back; one forgets just what it's really all about back there.
Don't base your decisions on what you see on the news, Rob, no matter which channel you watch, or even read in the papers. It is hard to over-estimate the degree of apathy stirred up among the general population by Brexit.
Jeremy
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Don't base your decisions on what you see on the news, Rob, no matter which channel you watch, or even read in the papers.
Yes, pay no attention to any sources of information. Just close your eyes and dream whichever reality you prefer.
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Divorce is expensive. I know. 🙄
Yes. But worth every penny.
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Recovery? From what?
What an awfully good question. What was the problem that needed to be solved? I haven't heard an answer yet, just jingoistic hand-waving.
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Yes. But worth every penny.
If you don't love your wife. If you do love her, seems off that others can divorce her on your behalf, totally unasked.
:-(
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Maybe because you're not directly involved?
Brexit Costs Close To Matching Britain’s Total EU Contributions
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/01/21/brexit-costs-close-to-matching-britains-total-eu-contributions-infographic/
Regardless if I am involved or not, it is pretty easy to see the elitist outrage and end of the world warnings that have not happened.
From an outsider there are a few obvious truths about Brexit. 1. The elitist never thought it could happen and held the referendum as a way to stick their tongues out at the Tories after they were sure to loose. 2. After the Tories won the vote, with the largest voter turn out ever, they decided to try and overturn the people's choice by delaying, delaying, delaying, and refusing to follow the vote.
The fact that a first world country with a well developed democracy would do this, says some pretty horible things for democracy. Almost like elected officals could care less about what the people think and do what they want, as if they were dictators.
3. Then, the doom and gloom predicted by the elitists never materialized, which only strengthened the Tories. 4. The elitists tried to insist that the referendum was false, and, upon an offer for another vote, claimed that would be illegitimate, thus destroying their case. And 5. after too much delaying and pandering a final referendum was called by Boris Johnson on parliament where the Tories ran primarily on Breixt and won in a landslide.
It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square. If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent. Good or bad, this is what was voted for. It's about time for it to be implemented.
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For those who are unclear about the process forward (yes, there is an 11 month process ahead):
After Brexit Day, Britain still has to work out its future relationship with the E.U.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCS7i5A6dA
Current estimates are that 11 months are not enough to make (according to the Financial Times) some 750 new international deals that were agreed upon, also on the UK's behalf, by "Europe". It takes time to untangle some 40 years of cooperation ...
If not achieved in time, it might yet result in a hard break, with many unresolved issues (and negative effects).
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Regardless if I am involved or not, it is pretty easy to see the elitist outrage and end of the world warnings that have not happened.
I hope for my UK friends that you are right, but I'm not optimistic (as a pragmatic person). It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any. It wiil become an uphill battle all the way (and the UK is somewhat outnumbered on virtually all fronts).
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I hope for my UK friends that you are right, but I'm not optimistic (as a pragmatic person). It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any. It wiil become an uphill battle all the way (and the UK is somewhat outnumbered on virtually all fronts).
That's fine. It's what they elected, so give it to them.
Last I checked though, London was still a major financial center of the Europe, second only to Zürich. To add to that, Switzerland is doing pretty good for itself being outside of the EU.
I very much doubt Britain is in for a shit storm like so many have predicted would be the case already.
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On my to-do list:
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On my to-do list:
While doing that, you should add a few more crosses to that map
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Yes, pay no attention to any sources of information. Just close your eyes and dream whichever reality you prefer.
You have completely missed my point. Rob was writing of his proposed return to the UK and what he perceived as national mood, derived from newspapers. I, who live here, was indicating that those sources of information do not, for very obvious reasons, correlate with the reality of the national mood. Very few people are interested in politics at all, still less in its subsidiary, Brexit.
If you lived here, rather than pontificating from elsewhere, you'd understand.
Jeremy
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On my to-do list:
Every cloud has a silver lining.
;-)
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.. what he perceived as national mood, derived from newspapers. I, who live here, was indicating that those sources of information do not, for very obvious reasons, correlate with the reality of the national mood...
If you lived here, rather than pontificating from elsewhere, you'd understand.
Bernard, are you listening? ;)
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Regardless if I am involved or not, it is pretty easy to see the elitist outrage and end of the world warnings that have not happened.
From an outsider there are a few obvious truths about Brexit. 1. The elitist never thought it could happen and held the referendum as a way to stick their tongues out at the Tories after they were sure to loose. 2. After the Tories won the vote, with the largest voter turn out ever, they decided to try and overturn the people's choice by delaying, delaying, delaying, and refusing to follow the vote.
The fact that a first world country with a well developed democracy would do this, says some pretty horible things for democracy. Almost like elected officals could care less about what the people think and do what they want, as if they were dictators.
3. Then, the doom and gloom predicted by the elitists never materialized, which only strengthened the Tories. 4. The elitists tried to insist that the referendum was false, and, upon an offer for another vote, claimed that would be illegitimate, thus destroying their case. And 5. after too much delaying and pandering a final referendum was called by Boris Johnson on parliament where the Tories ran primarily on Breixt and won in a landslide.
It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square. If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent. Good or bad, this is what was voted for. It's about time for it to be implemented.
1. What are you talking about? Mr Cameron was a Tory and from an elite. Are you suggesting he was wanting to stick his tongue out at himself? He was, in fact, a bright guy who made a cardinal error: he forgot that it is impossible to overrate the stupidity of people.
2. Which vote? Do you confuse the Referendum with a Tory vote? It was Parliament, which contains representatives of many parties, that did not like the type of deal that was being made; by nature they did not appreciate a nation voting for self-immolation. They all have constituents back in the woods, folks who will turn on them in wrath when their factory closes and the Japs and Germans retreat to better circumstances. Buy hey, when it happens, it won't, of couse, be their fault: it will be toted as "Europe punishing them for leaving" and not that they themselves have insisted in putting themselves out of the loop and building barriers to free trade.
3. You have to decide about elitists: do you mean Conservatives, do you mean Remainers? If you mean the latter, then that makes 48% of us Brits elite. Cool! Bet you envy that, you with your nation of red necks and blue collars! ;-) Joke! Joke! ;-)
And did you imagine that national economic disaster is always visible overnight? It certainly can be in one-man businesses, but on the grander scale, things are different. Changes in fortune take place on the longer term, as business starts to slow down, move from one location to another, which in a global economy is easy to do. For many, Brexit was never going to happen until it did: that was what the anger over "uncertainty" was all about: folks didn't know whether to remain active in Britain or plan their retreat, hire people or lose them.
4. I do not recall a second referendum ever being offered. Fact is, the only referendum was supposed to be a consultation, not a decision for action; that was something quickly forgotten and changed into a mandate for immediate implementation.
5. See above: there was no second referendum. There was a general election.
"It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square. If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent. Good or bad, this is what was voted for. It's about time for it to be implemented."
So, you believe that if somebody decides to go driving in the wrong direction on the fast lane of the motorway we should defend their right to do so, regardless of the mass pile-up that will inevitably affect everyone else on the road at that time? You have got to be out of your head, as was that tiny majority of Brits doing metaphorically exacly that on that fateful day.
Rob
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You have completely missed my point. Rob was writing of his proposed return to the UK and what he perceived as national mood, derived from newspapers. I, who live here, was indicating that those sources of information do not, for very obvious reasons, correlate with the reality of the national mood. Very few people are interested in politics at all, still less in its subsidiary, Brexit.
If you lived here, rather than pontificating from elsewhere, you'd understand.
Jeremy
I understood your post, Jeremy, even if I don't quite accept the accuaracy of the conclusion: in Scotland, at least, Brexit is on everyone's mind, if only because it underlines again just how powerless Scotland feels as an appendage of the greater England. Whether breaking that relationship makes any sense is another matter entirely: I see it as another example of emotional Brexit with the difference that if Scotland understood the dangers of Brexit, it may not see the same dangers closer to home, which could be a great pity.
Returning or not returning, actually, will depend on my ability to sell my home at a reasonable price. The move is really all about saving the kids from a tax situation here that will be worse for them than if I die in Scotland, with no property here. Which is fair enough: Spain is entitled to arrange its taxation rules as it wants them.
My photographic ambitions are now just that: hopes and unrealistic wishful thinking of rocking and rolling again in a world long gone. The main motivation it about the kids. I feel I owe them that at the very least. Love is strong medicine.
;-)
Rob
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From an outsider there are a few obvious truths about Brexit. [...]
This post is so ill-informed, factually both misguided and simply incorrect, that I'd be surprised anyone would, three years on, still be willing to waste any more time and effort in discussion.
The elitist never thought it could happen ...
Quoting Ian McEwan (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlVS19XZWVrZW5kLTIwMDIwMg%3D%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK), today,
" If 16 million remainers are an elite, then we may rejoice that the UK is a model of meritocracy. "
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I hope for my UK friends that you are right, but I'm not optimistic (as a pragmatic person). It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any. It wiil become an uphill battle all the way (and the UK is somewhat outnumbered on virtually all fronts).
I don;t think Europe wants to cut its nose off to spite its face. Sure, there will be lots of bumps in the road. But Mercedes still wants to sell cars to the Brits. Trade is a two-way street. Accommodations will have to be made on both sides. I believe the Chunnel trains run both ways.
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This post is so ill-informed, factually both misguided and simply incorrect, that I'd be surprised anyone would, three years on, still be willing to waste any more time and effort in discussion.
Quoting Ian McEwan (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlVS19XZWVrZW5kLTIwMDIwMg%3D%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK), today,
" If 16 million remainers are an elite, then we may rejoice that the UK is a model of meritocracy. "
This is the impression that we get over here across the pond, and after 3 years of writing any post on any platform, why would anyone, including the author, want to continue discussing it?
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It is not in the EU's interest to cut the UK some slack, so there won't be any.
Seems there's a fair chance it won't be long before there'll be no EU.
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1. What are you talking about? Mr Cameron was a Tory and from an elite. Are you suggesting he was wanting to stick his tongue out at himself? He was, in fact, a bright guy who made a cardinal error: he forgot that it is impossible to overrate the stupidity of people.
2. Which vote? Do you confuse the Referendum with a Tory vote? It was Parliament, which contains representatives of many parties, that did not like the type of deal that was being made; by nature they did not appreciate a nation voting for self-immolation. They all have constituents back in the woods, folks who will turn on them in wrath when their factory closes and the Japs and Germans retreat to better circumstances. Buy hey, when it happens, it won't, of couse, be their fault: it will be toted as "Europe punishing them for leaving" and not that they themselves have insisted in putting themselves out of the loop and building barriers to free trade.
3. You have to decide about elitists: do you mean Conservatives, do you mean Remainers? If you mean the latter, then that makes 48% of us Brits elite. Cool! Bet you envy that, you with your nation of red necks and blue collars! ;-) Joke! Joke! ;-)
And did you imagine that national economic disaster is always visible overnight? It certainly can be in one-man businesses, but on the grander scale, things are different. Changes in fortune take place on the longer term, as business starts to slow down, move from one location to another, which in a global economy is easy to do. For many, Brexit was never going to happen until it did: that was what the anger over "uncertainty" was all about: folks didn't know whether to remain active in Britain or plan their retreat, hire people or lose them.
4. I do not recall a second referendum ever being offered. Fact is, the only referendum was supposed to be a consultation, not a decision for action; that was something quickly forgotten and changed into a mandate for immediate implementation.
5. See above: there was no second referendum. There was a general election.
"It is now time to give the people what they voted for, fair and square. If not, it says a pretty damn sorry thing about democracy in the West, and sets a horrible precedent. Good or bad, this is what was voted for. It's about time for it to be implemented."
So, you believe that if somebody decides to go driving in the wrong direction on the fast lane of the motorway we should defend their right to do so, regardless of the mass pile-up that will inevitably affect everyone else on the road at that time? You have got to be out of your head, as was that tiny majority of Brits doing metaphorically exacly that on that fateful day.
Rob
I will give you that there are plenty of elites of both kind, but what I was talking about was those delaying just to try and out last public sentiment. When I said the 2nd referendum, I was talking about the recent general election and got the wording wrong.
Like it or not, the vote was to leave with it being backed up by the recent Tory landslide. This is how democracy works, and it is time to implement what was voted for. If not, how can you, or any other Brit for that matter, ever critique any country on its governance?
You cant, because if this was not implemented, you would be telling the world that it is okay not to listen the public. And it would be a sad day for democracy.
Last, on your driving example, if one motorist in Britain decided to start driving on the right, of course that would be disastrous. But if the majority (and it was the majority) of motorists elected to start driving on the right (like the rest of the world), it would be perfectly legitimate, and those driving on the left would now be in the wrong.
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Seems there's a fair chance it won't be long before there'll be no EU.
Good point Russ. I've been predicting EU collapse for 5 years. As long as EU governance includes interfering in individual country's political decisions, the EU is doomed. People want control of their own country and lives. They should back off and keep it as a trade block only like USMCA formerly NAFTA. Mexico, America and Canada have great trade relations, open borders, and smoothe relations across the spectrum. But there's no central governance telling all three how their people have to live. That's determined by separate laws in each country. The Europeans would do themselves a favor if the used USMCA has a guide.
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Alan,
I agree with you to some degree, but EU rules are more complex and encompassing than NAFTA. For example, if you are a member of one EU state, you can get easily medical care in another country, you don't need to show your passport at the border, you can bring more than one bottle of wine across the border, and you can work in another country without any special permits.
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Alan,
I agree with you to some degree, but EU rules are more complex and encompassing than NAFTA. For example, if you are a member of one EU state, you can get easily medical care in another country, you don't need to show your passport at the border, you can bring more than one bottle of wine across the border, and you can work in another country without any special permits.
I understand. But it's gone too far. The gnomes in charge of the EU decided to include rules that go to the heart of a people deciding how they want to live. Unelected bureaucrats deciding rules that are better left to each country's electorate, such as immigration. America and Canada for example have different medical systems. But that doesn;t interfere with travel, trade, security, and other things of common interest between our two nations. But in other areas. you Canadians run your country and we run ours. The Brits felt they lost control of their own nation, hence Brexit. If Britain makes a success of Brexit, other countries in the EU will go the same way. Those people will feel that they're also giving up their vote to foreigners and want to exit too. The idea of a European Federal Nation doesn't work. The dreamers are kidding themselves. It works in America because we all speak a common language and have a common history. We all bled together creating America. Europe is not the same.
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"Nissan drafts plan to double down on UK under hard Brexit"
https://www.ft.com/content/c4f0d1e2-4442-11ea-a43a-c4b328d9061c?fbclid=IwAR0j1OSzwWuVdFds-nmTZE0PiA1qCZDjhNe5kR_n0aZtQ78cI1g6hwqZXog
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Another reason for Brexit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51351844
A man shot dead by police after he stabbed people in south London had been released from prison in January. Sudesh Amman, 20, was released about a week ago after serving half of his sentence of three years and four months for terror offences.
He was under active police surveillance at the time of the attack on Streatham High Road, which police believe to be an Islamist-related terrorist incident.
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"Nissan drafts plan to double down on UK under hard Brexit"
.. more mindless posting.
It pays to read not just the article (denied by the company , btw) but also some of the 'informed' comments that follow it.
<<
The scenario in which high UK tariffs support a few car assembly factories to produce a variety of models for domestic consumption at low volumes has always existed. I noted this possibility in the early days of Brexit but it has always been excluded by manufacturers. I don't know why Brexiters think this 'South American' production model is so great because it means much higher prices for consumers.
>>
Edit:
Even assuming that project fear was nonsense, this article is not evidence of that. As any sensible business would do, Nissan simply have done an options appraisal. Finally this scenario would only occur if the UK can no longer afford the Mercs, Audis & BMWs because of high import tariff. This scenario would require a significant collapse of the UK economy, and would actually mean Project Fear has come true. It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good...
The bit that is missing in the article is the recent trade deal between Japan and the EU.
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.. more mindless posting...
Well... it is a Financial Times' article. Is it on your list of Fake News? Please share your list, so that we know from which sources not to post anymore.
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Well... it is a Financial Times' article...
It is indeed and one I subscribe to too.
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Another reason for Brexit: [...]
And whilst we're on 'the wrong end of the stick' - the, thankfully now deceased, murdering little shit was British. Not much to do with Brexit.
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And whilst we're on 'the wrong end of the stick' - the, thankfully now deceased, murdering little shit was British. Not much to do with Brexit.
You may consider it a minor point, and indeed he may have been a little shit (although his size has been, in the reports I've read, unspecified); but he murdered no-one.
Jeremy
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Another reason for Brexit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51351844
The boy must have had a difficult childhood.
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You may consider it a minor point, and indeed he may have been a little shit (although his size has been, in the reports I've read, unspecified); but he murdered no-one.
Jeremy.
I was confident you'd pick up on that :)
A soupçon of artistic licence there, though it should be noted that one victim is still in a 'life threatening critical condition' and part of his past CV included urging his girlfriend to murder her parents back in 2018.
M
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And whilst we're on 'the wrong end of the stick' - the, thankfully now deceased, murdering little shit was British. Not much to do with Brexit.
Everything to do with Brexit. The little shit most likely wouldn’t have been British have you had Brexit earlier. And you will have much less little shits in the future. If you are smart enough. At least as smart as Trump.
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And that wannabe, murdering little shit epitomises a leading misconception about the benefits some associated with Brexit: the UK problem didn't begin with Europe - it began with the end of Empire and the ready influx of people from Asia, Africa and the Caribbean, all counties with no relevant connection with our membership of Europe whatsoever.
From there we got the spreading drug culture, the different sense of the value of human life, and the different levels of violence that were likely to be committed compared with the types of violence our own white criminals were likely to offer us. I have it from my late police chief inspector neighbour that the olde "fair cop, guv" relationship was not fantasy at all, but that a code of understanding between criminals and police did exist. No more. They are now just as likely to get killed by gangsters as are other gangsters. It was the former situation that largely led to the lack of enthusiasm for police members carrying guns: they had better ways and protocols than that, but sadly, these no longer apply.
But, the 50s problems of migration have been confused with people from Europe who yeah, are not always saints either, but then we have our own crazies born and bred on the island, so we shall be no safer. That misconception is why you keep hearing the bleat about "control our own borders" without the realisation that it's too late, you can't, today, correct the errors of over seventy years ago.
And even if you could use your time machine, how would you use it? By no means were all of the immigrants bad people; many came with deeply held Christian religious beliefs, with skill sets and often with a great deal of money, and where that money was unable to be imported because it was stolen by the countries they fled, they did manage to smuggle in their entrepreneurial skills and start again from scratch; hell, they even managed to displace fish and chips as the national favourite!
As with all types of things in life, all people are not equal and the doctrinarial refusal to accept the obvious is why we have so many idiots in jobs, and so many people getting into the country that should never be allowed into it. Before Spain was into the EEC, you had to be able to show that you could support yourself from external funds before you were allowed to settle. That was the way to go, and would have solved many social problems had it been applied more strictly in the UK.
Ah, hindsight!
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Everything to do with Brexit. The little shit most likely wouldn’t have been British have you had Brexit earlier. And you will have much less little shits in the future. If you are smart enough. At least as smart as Trump.
20 years of age and, according to prosecutors, an obsession with Islamic extremism and Daesh. There's a host of UK born & bred, non-Brexit related, citizens who fit the mould.
Rob explains it, in #69 above, far better.
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Rob, what’s done is done. But the Brexit future is bright, you’ll have the opportunity not to let the little shits into the country anymore. If you are smarter than 70 years ago. Otherwise, you’d be soon overrun by Frau Merkel’s fifth column. In that sense, Brexit can be seen as the Battle of Britain 2.0, yet a another successful defense against German invasion.
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... There's a host of UK born & bred, non-Brexit related, citizens who fit the mould....
They wouldn’t be UK-born if you had a Brexit earlier, and controlled your borders independently. Brexit voters realized what’s done is done, but at least the future can be saved. That, of course, presupposes a proper political attitude, common sense, and putting Britain first, not that “human rights” shit coming out of the EU and British loony left.
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They wouldn’t be UK-born if you had a Brexit earlier, and controlled your borders independently ...
Brief history for Slobodan:
At its most extensive, the British Empire comprised 57 colonies, dominions, territories or protectorates. The Brits ruled about 20 percent of world’s population and governed nearly 25 percent of the world’s land mass. England's imperial might began to crumble during World War II and a nationalistic surge ended the colonial era, beginning with the British withdrawal from India and Pakistan in 1947. You need to go back some 73 years - it ain't Brexit .
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Thanks for the history lesson, however irrelevant for the point I was making.
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Because before immigration there was no crime and no one took drugs.
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Because before immigration there was no crime and no one took drugs.
How true! ; )
Peter
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Thanks for the history lesson, however irrelevant for the point I was making.
Given the ignorance shown by the point you tried to make, a history lesson couldn't be more relevant. Brexit has nothing to do with the presence of this guy or of Asian Muslims in the UK - they come from the Empire.
In bigoted and racist terms, Brexit will probably mean more non-whites and Muslims being allowed in the UK. BJ advocates immigration rules that don't give precedence to our largely-white European neighbours, and more visas is the first item on India's agenda for a trade deal.
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Given the ignorance shown by the point you tried to make...
And what that “ignorance” would be? The only ignorance so far has been your and Manoli’s reading comprehension.
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And what that “ignorance” would be? The only ignorance so far has been your and Manoli’s reading comprehension.
Yeah, right. You don't seem to appreciate the clarity of your English.
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Well, there was MAGA and now there's MEGA. Make England Great Again.
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Well, there was MAGA and now there's MEGA. Make England Great Again.
So much for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.
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The effect on democracy of Mr T spreads: today, before a briefing in London, the New Conservatives decided to split the press into two units: those it would allow to remain, and those that had to leave. To give them credit, many of those "allowed" to remain walked out in disgust.
This is an unprecedented attack on the press. According to the NCs, this was not banning anybody, simply inviting some and not inviting others. What was that one about first casualties?
And they lied to the Brits that Brexit was about freedom? It clearly was, though, about taking back control: yeah, back from the man in the street the moment he'd served his purpose and provided the electoral numbers to put the NCs in power. I was going to write back in power, but that would be inaccurate: this is a new political party never before seen in power in this land.
Boy, is truth ever going to be a victim, and the state view always the only one allowed to be read, seen or heard. And to think I believed that was something only ever likely to happen under communism or fascism!
Pandora has stepped out of her box.
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Pandora has stepped out of her box.
Pandora was never in a box, Rob.
Jeremy
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Pandora was never in a box, Rob.
Jeremy
She was when they buried her, though!
I once heard she sat on it a lot - her box, that is. Maybe she listened to swamp pop rock music.
Stickler! :-)
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Everything to do with Brexit. The little shit most likely wouldn’t have been British have you had Brexit earlier. And you will have much less little shits in the future. If you are smart enough. At least as smart as Trump.
That what the native Indians think in the US...
Now the US is crowded with that stuff.
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Stickler! :-)
And proud of it, Rob!
Jeremy
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They wouldn’t be UK-born if you had a Brexit earlier, and controlled your borders independently. Brexit voters realized what’s done is done, but at least the future can be saved. That, of course, presupposes a proper political attitude, common sense, and putting Britain first, not that “human rights” shit coming out of the EU and British loony left.
Re: immigration trends.
For the first time, Muhammad is one of the top 10 most popular baby names for boys in the United States, according to data from the parenting website BabyCenter.
Muhammad ranks at No. 10, up four spots from last year. The name has been climbing steadily on BabyCenter's rankings over the years and first entered the top 100 in 2013.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/06/us/muhammad-top-10-baby-names-trnd/index.html
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Re: immigration trends.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/06/us/muhammad-top-10-baby-names-trnd/index.html
Sheer tragedy. Thanks, Obama!
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And proud of it, Rob!
Jeremy
Quite right too!
Reminds me of my lawyer granddaughter when, as a kid, she used to come visit us in summers past: she let me away with nothing; always held me to account!
And I loved her for that. Good to see independent, fearless minds so young!
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I posted the following to another thread, but given the debate on immigration to the UK it would seem to have some relevance here.
I've recently spent over two weeks in hospital having had five endoscopy procedures including two surgical endoscopy under general anaesthetic. I also had a multitude of X-rays, several CT scans and many medications. Twelve days peeing into a bag and being fed with a nasal gastric tube. I had my own room with TV and Internet access and all of this as an National Health Service patient.
I'm thankful for our free-at-the-point-of-access NHS. I'm very grateful to all the consultants, doctors, dieticians, nursing and ancillary staff, many of whom are first, second or third generation immigrants from all corners of the world. The NHS - and indeed the care sector - relies on their compassionate care: long may we continue to attract and welcome such folk to the UK.
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Nothing's free. Next time you buy a Nikon camera, and pay$1400 in GB, instead of$1000 at B&H in NYC, you'll realize that.
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Nothing's free. Next time you buy a Nikon camera, and pay$1400 in GB, instead of$1000 at B&H in NYC, you'll realize that.
I said free-at-the-point-of-access.
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What does that mean?
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What does that mean?
Honestly Alan, can't you figure that out all by yourself?
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I said free-at-the-point-of-access.
What does that mean?
It means that it (healthcare) is free when you need to access it, e.g., when you fall sick and need treatment. The term is used to denote that the writer or interlocutor is aware that it is not free in a broader sense of the word, ie, it needs to be paid through taxes.
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What does that mean?
In addition to Slobodan's contribution, it also mean that regardless of your financial means or your taxation contributions, you will receive healthcare without payment at the-point-of-access.
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Honestly Alan, can't you figure that out all by yourself?
I wasn't discussing it with you, Frank .
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In addition to Slobodan's contribution, it also mean that regardless of your financial means or your taxation contributions, you will receive healthcare without payment at the-point-of-access.
Well, unless you're a charity case, and you don't earn a living, you're paying huge amounts of taxes that is applied to cover health care. That's very similar to Private health insurance where you contribute premiums that goes towards a payment that pays for Health Services when you get sick. Not much of a difference.
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It means that it (healthcare) is free when you need to access it, e.g., when you fall sick and need treatment. The term is used to denote that the writer or interlocutor is aware that it is not free in a broader sense of the word, ie, it needs to be paid through taxes.
I don;t think he believes he is paying for it. That's why I asked. So many people think that "free" services they get from the government is actually free. At the end of the day, higher taxes to offset health care is similar to paying health insurance premiums. You pay for it in advance and at the time you need medical care, you're not being charged, other than deductibles and copays. But you pay, and pay , and pay, in both cases.
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I don;t think he believes he is paying for it. That's why I asked. So many people think that "free" services they get from the government is actually free. At the end of the day, higher taxes to offset health care is similar to paying health insurance premiums. You pay for it in advance and at the time you need medical care, you're not being charged, other than deductibles and copays. But you pay, and pay , and pay, in both cases.
You really need to read what it is I'm writing.
Rob, I see what you mean!
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You really need to read what it is I'm writing.
Rob, I see what you mean!
Despite what you say, you still really think it's free. All liberals and socialists think government services are free. Or the other guy is paying for it. :)
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You really need to read what it is I'm writing.
Rob, I see what you mean!
Q.E.D.
:-)
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Despite what you say, you still really think it's free. All liberals and socialists think government services are free. Or the other guy is paying for it. :)
Nonsense.
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Nonsense.
What's nonsense. That you don;t believe government services are free? Or that the other guy is not paying for it?
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I don;t think he believes he is paying for it...
As I explained, people who use the term "free-at-the-point-of-access" use it for a reason. Otherwise, they would just say "free."
Keith may or may not be liberal or whatever, but he surely isn't stupid or uneducated. We've been so many times over this "free" stuff, reminding everyone about taxes, that Keith is surely aware of that. That is exactly why he used the term "free-at-the-point-of-access."
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As I explained, people who use the term "free-at-the-point-of-access" use it for a reason. Otherwise, they would just say "free."
Keith may or may not be liberal or whatever, but he surely isn't stupid or uneducated. We've been so many times over this "free" stuff, reminding everyone about taxes, that Keith is surely aware of that. That is exactly why he used the term "free-at-the-point-of-access."
Thank you, Slobodan.
Rob, I've never done that thing before, but I think I'll follow your lead.
;-)
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As I explained, people who use the term "free-at-the-point-of-access" use it for a reason. Otherwise, they would just say "free."
Keith may or may not be liberal or whatever, but he surely isn't stupid or uneducated. We've been so many times over this "free" stuff, reminding everyone about taxes, that Keith is surely aware of that. That is exactly why he used the term "free-at-the-point-of-access."
I understand what he's saying. But it is a meaningless statement. It's spin. It's like saying my health insurance premiums that I paid for in the past every month allows me free medical care at the point of service. That has no meaning except fooling myself that it's free. YOU"RE PAYING FOR IT WITH YOUR PREMIUMS. With the government you're paying for it with your taxes. Free at the point of service is trying to convince yourself that you got a great deal.
Pay now or pay later.
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Thank you, Slobodan.
Rob, I've never done that thing before, but I think I'll follow your lead.
;-)
It preserved my sanity; that gets challenges enough when I try telephoning some service and get put though to some goddam entity that prevents me from speaking with a person. Willing conversations with robots and rubber walls constitute self-inflicted damage.
Try the button: bliss!
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...Free at the point of service is trying to convince yourself that you got a great deal...
I actually got a great deal when in Spain. A free appendectomy, and a week of recovery in a university hospital. And I wasn't even paying taxes in Spain, just renting an apartment there longer than six months (so, yes, the other guy paid for me). I've never denied that it is a wonderful feeling of not having to pay for a medical service.
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I actually got a great deal when in Spain. A free appendectomy, and a week of recovery in a university hospital. And I wasn't even paying taxes in Spain, just renting an apartment there longer than six months (so, yes, the other guy paid for me). I've never denied that it is a wonderful feeling of not having to pay for a medical service.
Well, you were a visitor but it was great they picked up the cost. But for locals who live there, they're paying taxes, VATs or whatever that pays for the services. My reference to other wsa for people who are local but don;t earn enough to pay much taxes. SO, yes, for them it's relatively free. But most people pay an awful lot of taxes especially in Europe.
In any case, I thought I'd help out Britain and the EU at the same time. I just received a pair of Josef Seibel slippers (I think they're German company), made in Albania, but bought from a British firm Charles Clinkard and shipped here to New Jersey. The shipping from England was only about $18. But I had a similar pair (made in Bulgaria) for about 5 years and they lasted and lasted, unlike America slippers. Boris Johnson would be pleased that he's already getting trade with America even before negotiating with Trump.
Glad I could help old chaps.
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Thank you, Slobodan.
Rob, I've never done that thing before, but I think I'll follow your lead.
;-)
Yes. Join Rob in the dark. I guess you can't handle challenging debate either.
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Yes. Join Rob in the dark. I guess you can't handle challenging debate either.
Worry not, I'll keep you around, for your divine light.
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I actually got a great deal when in Spain. A free appendectomy, and a week of recovery in a university hospital. And I wasn't even paying taxes in Spain, just renting an apartment there longer than six months (so, yes, the other guy paid for me). I've never denied that it is a wonderful feeling of not having to pay for a medical service.
And you know what, the same guy would gladly help you out again.
That's one of the differences between some Europeans and some denizens of darker England: they have a more generous spirit. It really is true that the desire for Brexit goes largely not understood here. They see the benefits in unity for both sides, and find it hard to put themseves into the same kind of über nationalistic frames of reference. Of course, they are just as fiercely nationalistic regarding football tournaments and cheer for their own side, but politically, they seem far more willling to accept that the broader, common good makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, they do seem to be drifting into a dystopian form of national politics, ever smaller parties becoming involved with being the makers of kings.
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Worry not, I'll keep you around, for your divine light.
Great. Looking forward to a lovely debate.
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I meant lively debate. 😚
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https://www.france24.com/en/culture/20200131-the-art-of-brexit-consequences-arts-culture-stephen-clarke-films-series-books-comedy-music
More about fake Brexit propaganda.
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I wasn't discussing it with you, Frank .
You're discussing it with everyone on the forum, Alan. Private discussions take place elsewhere.
Nonsense.
I've told you before not to make pointless posts such as this. Final warning.
Jeremy
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There was a recent interesting episode of the NPR Fresh Air podcast, https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2020/02/11/804828527/fresh-air-for-feb-11-2020-trumps-2020-disinformation-campaign (https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2020/02/11/804828527/fresh-air-for-feb-11-2020-trumps-2020-disinformation-campaign). It is an interview with a journalist about his article in the Atlantic about how Trump is setting up to use social media disinformation (aka propaganda) in the upcoming election.
There are some interesting comments about Facebook policies early on.
The examples of methods he gives are illuminating. In the last bit, he mentions one newish method that I had never heard of. Web sites are springing up that look like local newspapers, complete with some stories about local parking or what now, but are actually created and run by entities set up for the purpose. Political candidates can basically plant stories (for pay) onto these sites and unless you examine them carefully, they appear to be real local news and opinion pieces. It's part of a targeted campaign to go after local news outlets.
The podcast is about 45 min long.
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There was a recent interesting episode of the NPR Fresh Air podcast, https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2020/02/11/804828527/fresh-air-for-feb-11-2020-trumps-2020-disinformation-campaign (https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2020/02/11/804828527/fresh-air-for-feb-11-2020-trumps-2020-disinformation-campaign). It is an interview with a journalist about his article in the Atlantic about how Trump is setting up to use social media disinformation (aka propaganda) in the upcoming election.
There are some interesting comments about Facebook policies early on.
The examples of methods he gives are illuminating. In the last bit, he mentions one newish method that I had never heard of. Web sites are springing up that look like local newspapers, complete with some stories about local parking or what now, but are actually created and run by entities set up for the purpose. Political candidates can basically plant stories (for pay) onto these sites and unless you examine them carefully, they appear to be real local news and opinion pieces. It's part of a targeted campaign to go after local news outlets.
The podcast is about 45 min long.
How do we know that there are no political plants here? :)
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There was a recent interesting episode of the NPR Fresh Air podcast, https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2020/02/11/804828527/fresh-air-for-feb-11-2020-trumps-2020-disinformation-campaign (https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2020/02/11/804828527/fresh-air-for-feb-11-2020-trumps-2020-disinformation-campaign). It is an interview with a journalist about his article in the Atlantic about how Trump is setting up to use social media disinformation (aka propaganda) in the upcoming election.
There are some interesting comments about Facebook policies early on.
The examples of methods he gives are illuminating. In the last bit, he mentions one newish method that I had never heard of. Web sites are springing up that look like local newspapers, complete with some stories about local parking or what now, but are actually created and run by entities set up for the purpose. Political candidates can basically plant stories (for pay) onto these sites and unless you examine them computer.carefully, they appear to be real local news and opinion pieces. It's part of a targeted campaign to go after local news outlets.
The podcast is about 45 min long.
Scams like that are ongoing on the web. They come from banks (that are not) and I have my suspicions about some sites that profess to be Amazon. I get messages on the cellphone that pretend to come from my bank. I dump it all. I refuse to bank online too, despite invitations to do so. I once checked out what my bank would consider due diligence on my part: I wonder if anyone has that kind of security on their computer.
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This is a longish podcast (53 minutes) from the NPR program Hidden Brain about approaches to politics, https://www.npr.org/2020/02/10/804612601/passion-isnt-enough-the-rise-of-political-hobbyism-in-the-united-states (https://www.npr.org/2020/02/10/804612601/passion-isnt-enough-the-rise-of-political-hobbyism-in-the-united-states). The political researcher who is being interviewed compares and contrasts "game playing" politics, mostly what occurs on social media, with those who concentrate on accomplishing real objectives. His research shows some interesting results about who accomplishes real things and who just like to argue for the fun of it.