canon ?

[Rhossydd]

the hyperbole gets out of hand very quickly. IMVHO that's a shame.

Quite. People expect manufacturers to instantly respond to their competitors products without any regard to their routine product development and release cycles.
If you dig into Canon's past, you should see that next year something new and interesting is likely to be released. Having heard that Canon Europe were in Instanbul at the start of this month photographing their new products for release next year, so I think they're just sticking to their schedules.
Most of us can't afford to swap systems every time something newer comes along. I was delighted with the performance of my current camera (5Dii) when I bought it, just because Nikon have released the D800 hasn't stopped my Canon continuing to deliver great images.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... If you dig into Canon's past, you should see that next year something new and interesting is likely to be released...

You mean for the tenth anniversary from the last time "something new and interesting" was released by Canon? 

[dwswager]

The thing with men and camera gear or any other gear for that matter is criticising gear is almost like questioning their manhood and the hyperbole gets out of hand very quickly. IMVHO that's a shame.

Agreed.  But the IRRATIONAL defense of Canon's lack of progress in sensor development has been eyepopping.  There are lots of reasons to purchase a Canon DSLR not least of which is a long time investment in lenses and accessories.  I know I stayed with Nikon during the out years when Canon was kicking their butt with better sensors, but I had no illusions that that Canon was not kicking their butt.

If Canon shooters want to keep getting inferior sensors, all they need do is keep irrationally defending Canon's inferior sensors.  I continually criticize Nikon's market placements and lack of features in the hopes that they will get corrected.  But, I own 8,000 shares of AAPL stock precisely because Apple users irrationally purchase Apple products regardless of their position in the marketplace. The iPhone 6 is a catch up to 2 year old Androids, but people buy them anyway, for which I am grateful and profitable.

[NancyP]

What constitutes "irrational defense"? Defense of the camera system is not necessarily a defense of the sensor, merely acquiescence to the sensor, because the system works "well enough" given the particular user's needs, prior investment in the system, and pocketbook. Furthermore, past history has shown that the two camera companies catch up to each other in significant ways, given a little time. Canon now sees mirrorless camera (Sony) manufacturers nipping away at the loyal base of Canon users with significant lens inventory. Right now a A7r plus metabones plus "your favorite lens" may be a little clunky in operation, but the Sony camera to Canon lens experience is expected to improve, so Canon should be working away at an equivalent or better sensor for landscape / still life shooters. Action shooters wouldn't leave Canon, and astrophotography shooters will put up with any amount of inconvenience.

[John Koerner]

My point here is that you'll always be more successful using the best tool for the job at hand. IMO, for landscapes and slower, easier to track subjects the D8XX is undoubtedly the best small format camera going. For very fast moving subjects at high ISOs there are better tools. Some of those are made by Nikon (D4/D4S), but it's arguable that the best of those is still Canon. If you can't capture a useable photo (focus, exposure) in the first place, more subtle differences in IQ become irrelevant.
Happy Holidays,

There was actually a guy on FB, who had the D810, who tried to capture a low-light image of a Jaguar that had killed a caiman in South America, at the very moment of the pounce.

It was a sensational moment, a compelling capture (in the sense that it was riveting), but unfortunately the image quality sucked.

If only he had the right tool for the job ... a low-light, fast-action camera like the 7DII or 1Dx (of D4) ... not a D810.

Jack

[dwswager]

What constitutes "irrational defense"? Defense of the camera system is not necessarily a defense of the sensor, merely acquiescence to the sensor, because the system works "well enough" given the particular user's needs, prior investment in the system, and pocketbook.

Irrational defense are things like "it doesn't matter".

As I said, there are reasons why you might buy a Canon over Nikon or Nikon over Canon based on something other than the quality of the output "Not least of which is a long time investment in lenses and accessories!"

I don't begrudge anyone making whatever choices they make for whatever reasons they make them.  But in discussing options and making recommendations to people, it comes down basically to lying!!  For example, in a comparison of 7DmkII and the D7100, there is no question the Canon is a more functional camera.  It's higher frame rate, larger buffer, dual processors, quicker auto-focus is a step ahead of the D7100.  But who really needs that; about 15% of buyers looking for a crop sensor camera.  Very few people NEED 10FPS versus 6FPS for example. I shoot all sorts of outdoor sports with the D7100 and find it more than capable.  But then, I remember shooting sports with finger winding and 2.5 fps auto winders. The vast majority of users would be better served with the D7100, especially at a current $800 discount to the 7DmkII.

That said, Nikon deserves criticism for not releasing a more capable body with a better frame rate, bigger buffer and better throughput with the same 24MP (no OLPF) sensor Subsystem as the D7100.  I am a former D300 shooter that waited forever for an upgrade that never came.  Shame on Nikon!  I find them idiotic for not releasing a 24MP version of the D810 with better frame rate made possible simply by less pixel data to process for basically negligible development cost!  Why release the D750 to compete with the D610 and ignore the D700 faithful?

[dwswager]

There was actually a guy on FB, who had the D810, who tried to capture a low-light image of a Jaguar that had killed a caiman in South America, at the very moment of the pounce.

It was a sensational moment, a compelling capture (in the sense that it was riveting), but unfortunately the image quality sucked.

If only he had the right tool for the job ... a low-light, fast-action camera like the 7DII or 1Dx (of D4) ... not a D810.

Jack

What?  The D810 has better high ISO performance than either the 7DmkII or the 1Dx.   If the image quality sucked it was on the photographer!  Hell, the D7100 is the better of the 7DmkII up to 1600 where it drops down to the Canon level.

BTW, this qualifies as IRRATIONAL DEFENSE!

[John Koerner]

What?  The D810 has better high ISO performance than either the 7DmkII or the 1Dx.   If the image quality sucked it was on the photographer!  Hell, the D7100 is the better of the 7DmkII up to 1600 where it drops down to the Canon level.

It could very well have been the photographer, true.
Or the lack of responsiveness of the AF mechanism.
Or the fact maybe it was a high-ISO issue for the step-up (1Dx/D4), etc.

It's hard to say, but why the distress and the exclamation points?

BTW, this qualifies as IRRATIONAL DEFENSE!

Irrational? I'm not so sure. Most sports photogs, and bird/wildlife photogs don't use the D810 for the very reason it's not an action camera.

Quite frankly, I would call your screaming in all-capital letters + overuse of exclamation points "irrational" ...

Jack

[dwswager]

It could very well have been the photographer, true.
Or the lack of responsiveness of the AF mechanism.
Or the fact maybe it was a high-ISO issue for the step-up (1Dx/D4), etc.

It's hard to say, but why the distress and the exclamation points?



Irrational? I'm not so sure. Most sports photogs, and bird/wildlife photogs don't use the D810 for the very reason it's not an action camera.

Quite frankly, I would call your screaming in all-capital letters + overuse of exclamation points "irrational" ...

Jack

You indicated the image quality Sucked!  Obviously, with the best sensor subsytem of any DSLR in the world, it isn't a sensor problem.  Now you say it might have been the AF subsystem, but since it has the same AF as a D4 that is unlikely.  The D810 is as responsive a camera as I've ever owned.  It is definitely a photographer issue.

And yes, the D810 is not marketed, nor intended, as a fast action camera.  It is not the camera of choice in the Nikon line if you are shooting high speed action.  But that does not mean it can not be used for that purpose.  I shoot fast action sports with it.  I'll take a skilled photographer shooting the D810 with it's pedestrian 5fps over unskilled photographers with 10-12 fps cameras any day.

John Shaw's answer to the question (with images):  Can the D800 be used for Wildlife Photography?

[John Koerner]

You indicated the image quality Sucked!

I did. And it did.

But, again, why the exclamation mark?

Time to take your meds perhaps?

Obviously, with the best sensor subsytem of any DSLR in the world, it isn't a sensor problem.

I never said it was a sensor problem; I said it didn't appear to be the right tool for the job.

Do you understand the difference?

Now you say it might have been the AF subsystem, but since it has the same AF as a D4 that is unlikely.

No, now you are starting to get the idea that there are other elements to a great shot than a fine sensor

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why there are no Hasselblads being used for sports or on a safari, if excellent sensors are the answer to everything

It is definitely a photographer issue.

No, that is your conclusion alone.

On other shots, static, the guy has taken some really nice images.

And yes, the D810 is not marketed, nor intended, as a fast action camera.  It is not the camera of choice in the Nikon line if you are shooting high speed action.

Exactly, genius, it's not the right tool for that kind of job.

Pretty much what I said

But that does not mean it can not be used for that purpose.  I shoot fast action sports with it.

You can use a screwdriver to pound a nail, too, if you want ... but a hammer does a better job.

Um, don't really care about what you do. This isn't about you, nor was my post directed to you.

It was a statement that the hallowed D810 flubbed in a certain context.

Are you saying there aren't better choices in certain contexts?

I'll take a skilled photographer shooting the D810 with it's pedestrian 5fps over unskilled photographers with 10-12 fps cameras any day.

Not sure I care what you'd take either.

It's been my observation that most skilled sports photogs / bird photogs are out there with 1Dxs and D4s, not D810s.

D810s are pretty much for landscape photogs and other non-moving, decent-light applications.

Can't think of anyone serious who uses them for low-light/fast-action shooting, can you?

John Shaw's answer to the question (with images):  Can the D800 be used for Wildlife Photography?

Thanks for John Shaw's opinion, though I am not sure I asked for it.

Do you really think that was an in-depth analysis, or that those were compelling images, BTW?

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I posted a link to a guy who had the D4 and the D810, and any time he went low light, or had action shots, he pretty much put the D810 down and said it was nowhere near as effective as the D4. The D810 wasn't the right tool for the job. Didn't you say that back a few paragraphs also?

Maybe that's why the D4 is twice as much, other considerations besides "sensor only," ya think?

What are we arguing about?

It seems like you've already admitted my original premise (your word: "the D810 is not marketed, nor intended, as a fast action camera"),  but still just can't seem to stand the idea that the D810 might not be the best choice for everything.

Jack

[BernardLanguillier]

There was actually a guy on FB, who had the D810, who tried to capture a low-light image of a Jaguar that had killed a caiman in South America, at the very moment of the pounce.

It was a sensational moment, a compelling capture (in the sense that it was riveting), but unfortunately the image quality sucked.

If only he had the right tool for the job ... a low-light, fast-action camera like the 7DII or 1Dx (of D4) ... not a D810.

John,

If I may, have you shot action with any of these cameras?

I have with the D810 using both 300mm f2.8 and the new 400mm f2.8 E and the camera performed very well.

What makes you think that the D810 is responsible for the failure you are reporting on?

Do you have information about the light level when he attempted to capture that scene, what lens he was shooting with, the level of skills of the photographer capturing action in low light,...

Do you have a comparison image shot with the 7DII in the same conditions?

Cheers,
Bernard

[LKaven]

Time to take your meds perhaps?

Let's not needle people with insinuations about mental instability here.

[John Koerner]

John,
If I may, have you shot action with any of these cameras?

You may, and no.

I have with the D810 using both 300mm f2.8 and the new 400mm f2.8 E and the camera performed very well.

I don't know what that means exactly. Compared to what?

What makes you think that the D810 is responsible for the failure you are reporting on?

Because non-biased photographers, with both the D810 and the D4x, have directly stated that the D810 falters in this type of setting.

Do you have information about the light level when he attempted to capture that scene, what lens he was shooting with, the level of skills of the photographer capturing action in low light,...

The information was presented in the heading (it was either pre-dawn, or twilight, I forget which) and you could see it in the photo. It was dark, and there was the action of a jaguar pouncing on a caiman.
It was pretty self-explanatory.

Do you have a comparison image shot with the 7DII in the same conditions?

I am not talking about the 7DII.
But I would imagine it would be tough to "switch systems" in the middle of a kill-scene at twilight in the Amazon.
I also don't think the guy shoots Canon.

I was merely saying that the D810 is not the right tool for every job.

Jack

PS: I still may get the D810, as I shoot mostly macro, which typically involves limited movement and benefits from high-res/dr. Kinda waiting to see what the new year brings though, as I won't be active again until April. Working on a huge project. Just bought Busch's new book on the D810 and am going to be reviewing it next week when it arrives. Does the LCD allow you to blow-up an image 10x the size for fine-focus?

[John Koerner]

I just posted some samples, taken at ISO 3200 and 16,000 (!) on another thread:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94724.msg784931#msg784931

That is pretty impressive actually. Nice.

[allegretto]

Oh, the 6D is a sleeper. Best camera in their line up actually. Very flexible and can capture many different scenes. Color rendition is very important to me, that's Nikon's Achilles heel. Everything is red. More important than DR actually.

Every time this issue is discussed, it's all about DR and charts. I'm with Nancy. It's about much more than just DR and charts. My 6D focuses much faster than any Nikon I've owned except the D4. The D4 is a monster in that department!

John, you left out the unnecessary ego-tripper 8000 shares of AAPL.

Swager.. I'm very happy for you. May you also live long and have fun. With that ego it's not going to be easy

[shadowblade]

Oh, the 6D is a sleeper. Best camera in their line up actually. Very flexible and can capture many different scenes. Color rendition is very important to me, that's Nikon's Achilles heel. Everything is red. More important than DR actually.

If you don't like the colour rendition, you can adjust it easily in post-processing. You can't add more DR in post-processing if the original file doesn't have it.

I personally prefer Nikon's default colour rendition. Canon gets things far too yellow/orange most of the time.

Every time this issue is discussed, it's all about DR and charts. I'm with Nancy. It's about much more than just DR and charts. My 6D focuses much faster than any Nikon I've owned except the D4. The D4 is a monster in that department!

Then you're doing something wrong with your Nikon.

The D810 has a monster of an AF system - the equal of the 1Dx in tracking accuracy, easily better than the 5D3. The D800/D800e is another story entirely.

[DeanChriss]

http://gorillasites.blogspot.com/2008/05/12-steps-of-measurebators-anonymous.html

Happy Holidays !

[dwswager]

You can use a screwdriver to pound a nail, too, if you want ... but a hammer does a better job.

Um, don't really care about what you do. This isn't about you, nor was my post directed to you.

It was a statement that the hallowed D810 flubbed in a certain context.

Are you saying there aren't better choices in certain contexts?


Jack

I think the problem here is obvious.  You seem desperate to blame the image quality that sucked on the D810 because it is hallowed, you don't own one, and Canon doesn't make it.

What you're missing is that there is a whole scale on which performance/functionality is measured and only when the tool falls below that minimum required to capture the particular image does the tool become inappropriate for use.  And skilled craftsmen are capable of making the tools they have on hand function to execute a wide array of tasks.   While the 7DmkII would not be the 'best' option to make portraits, it is certainly is up to the task.  I've already conceded that the D810 is not the best option, but it is a valid option for action.

While you are unlikely to take advice, I will leave you with that of quality guru W. Edwards Demming which would be learn to perform to the level at which you no longer require the assistance of the specialty tool...then buy it.  Learn to shoot action photography with a generalist camera.  At the point you become proficient with it, then buy the action camera.  His point is that specialty tools are intended to give the skilled efficiency and consistency, not to give the unskilled skill!

[John Koerner]

I think the problem here is obvious.  You seem desperate to blame the image quality that sucked on the D810 because it is hallowed, you don't own one, and Canon doesn't make it.

Yes, the problem here is obvious, and it's you.

You're the only one who's desperate to do anything. (Please revisit your previous exclamation points, all-caps usage, etc.)

I merely said the D810 wasn't the best tool for the job (fast-action, low-light photography), and even you agreed with this, so I am not sure what you're still squawkin' about

[John Koerner]

Oh, the 6D is a sleeper. Best camera in their line up actually. Very flexible and can capture many different scenes. Color rendition is very important to me, that's Nikon's Achilles heel. Everything is red. More important than DR actually.

Every time this issue is discussed, it's all about DR and charts. I'm with Nancy. It's about much more than just DR and charts. My 6D focuses much faster than any Nikon I've owned except the D4. The D4 is a monster in that department!

John, you left out the unnecessary ego-tripper 8000 shares of AAPL.

Swager.. I'm very happy for you. May you also live long and have fun. With that ego it's not going to be easy

The 6D does impress in its color rendition, true. That is one of the reasons Scott Kelby switched from the D4 to the 1Dx, the Canon's rendering of skin tones was superior (in addition to other highly-useful scrolling/image-tagging features the Canon had).

One of the things I am waiting for, actually, nobody has yet ... and that is 4K video capability.

I have a feeling that "the next" high mpx camera (from Canon or from whomever) is going to have 4K video capability, and (since I just purchased a 70" 4K TFX-certified television) I am wondering if I should delay pushing the "buy" button on my next camera purchase, until I see the 4K technology in that camera as well.

I have a feeling it's coming sooner, rather than later ...

Jack