Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing

[jjj]

Digital Dog.

[PeterAit]

There's nothing in the least bit anti-semetic about that news programme clip. Though there certainly is the problem that criticising Israel as some people have rightly done on this thread leads to [inaccurate] charges of anti semitism. And sadly a few dodgy posts.

Exactly right. It is quite astounding that some people still think that being critical of some policies of a country (Israel) has any relation to hatred for people because they are Jews. It's a close parallel to what happens sometimes here in the US, when criticism of a black politician's actions brings out charges of racism. Of course, anti-Semitism and racism still exist, but they are different from legitimate criticism.

[mezzoduomo]

Exactly right. It is quite astounding that some people still think that being critical of some policies of a country (Israel) has any relation to hatred for people because they are Jews. It's a close parallel to what happens sometimes here in the US, when criticism of a black politician's actions brings out charges of racism. Of course, anti-Semitism and racism still exist, but they are different from legitimate criticism.

I really didn’t intend to link my comment to the video posted here by ‘Cheers, Bernard’. Nothing anti-Semitic or improper about that video or post. I was really referring more to the ‘dodgy posts’, and the rise of actual public anti-Semitism that has been reported in some European cities…quite recently.
 

[PeterAit]

Hamas Detonates Suicide Bomb, Kidnaps IDF Soldier Just 90 Mins Into Ceasefire

Expect more finger-pointing.

Why is this a "kidnapping" and not just the capture of a prisoner of war? If Hamas sends fighters thru a tunnel into Israel and the IDF nabs them, is this also a kidnapping?

[mezzoduomo]

If the oppression of Gaza's Palestinians is the core grievance that propels Hamas, shall we discuss the Egyptian blockade of Gaza? Or is it ok for Arabs to take action to restrict things in Gaza, just not ok for Jews to do so?

[Vladimirovich]

According to Clinton

According to Clinton there was no sex, according to Bush there were WMD... to trust what American president (any, and for that matter politicians in other countries) is saying means have no selfrespect

[Vladimirovich]

the Russian immigrant population in Israel is the group least interested in striking a peace deal with the Palestinians

And when was the last time any genuine Soviet born & bred jew was in Israeli gov't on any ministerial position ?... I don't count "pre WWII cadres" who were born in Russian Empire (Golda Meir) or did a brief stint in xUSSR escaping from Poland in 1939 (Begin).

[Vladimirovich]

If the oppression of Gaza's Palestinians is the core grievance that propels Hamas, shall we discuss the Egyptian blockade of Gaza? Or is it ok for Arabs to take action to restrict things in Gaza, just not ok for Jews to do so?

Egypt is a lesser evil for them @ the moment... Egypt does not blockade air & sea... they just close their own border... it is OK for Israel to close their own border - but not OK to usurp air & sea.

[Vladimirovich]

right away US President Barack Obama "unequivocally" condemned Hamas for capturing the soldier "minutes after a ceasefire had been announced" (Hamas itself probably has no idea whether they scored a catch)... yet he was tight lipped about 1400+ for days... AIPAC has a good grip on his balls  ...

[Jeremy Roussak]

Exactly right. It is quite astounding that some people still think that being critical of some policies of a country (Israel) has any relation to hatred for people because they are Jews. It's a close parallel to what happens sometimes here in the US, when criticism of a black politician's actions brings out charges of racism. Of course, anti-Semitism and racism still exist, but they are different from legitimate criticism.

There's nothing in the least bit anti-semetic about that news programme clip. Though there certainly is the problem that criticising Israel as some people have rightly done on this thread leads to [inaccurate] charges of anti semitism. And sadly a few dodgy posts.

That's an obviously correct point made by both of you. It is possible to criticise Israel's actions without being anti-semitic. It's possible to be anti-semitic without being critical of Israel. And it's possible, as Vladimirovich has demonstrated, to criticise Israel and be anti-semitic.

IDF decided to use a ceasefire to 1) continue their operation (namely the destruction of some tonnel, built before ceasefire) and 2) do it on Palestinian land (instead of doing this on Israeli side - if that was indeed a tonnel from Gaza to Israel), so in turn Hamas justly attacked them (note - not on Israeli land - they attacked IDF soldiers who were violating the ceasefire by operating inside Gaza)... it was totally IDF's fault

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. As was once said of Macaulay, "I wish I were as certain of anything as that man is of everything". How serene must be your existence, unwracked by doubt of any kind. As long as your certainty involves Jews behaving badly, of course.

they put land over lives... greed as usual

That's it, Vlad - greedy Jews. Does this descent into anti-semitic stereotyping serve some purpose other than your own gratification?

Jeremy

[mezzoduomo]

Egypt is a lesser evil for them @ the moment...

Maybe not so "lesser" after all.

 
From yesterday’s Guardian:
 
“But other Egyptian actions – both over the past year, and in recent days – have led to accusations that Egypt is indifferent to Gazan suffering – and that its interests are aligned with Israel’s. Since last July Egypt has bolstered Israel’s blockade on Gaza by destroying over 1,600 tunnels that smugglers once used to bring crucial goods (and weapons) into the territory. The end of the tunnel trade, which Egypt had tolerated for years, crippled Gaza economically, since the simultaneous closure of Egypt’s formal border at Rafah meant Gazans had no other way of importing many supplies.
 
Hamas’s decision to carry on fighting in recent weeks despite catastrophic civilian losses owed as much to Egypt’s refusal to lift this blockade as it does to Israel’s. Egypt wanted Hamas to accept an immediate ceasefire without preconditions. But Hamas wanted Egypt to spell out how it might ease the siege before it did so.”
 

[PeterAit]

If we make take a moment for a deep breath, I would like to offer two quotes that relate to a lot of this thread (and to a lot of life in general):

"I am not young enough to know everything" - Oscar Wilde

"Often wrong, but never in doubt" - Unknown

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... There's nothing absurd about new immigrants feeling strong commitment to the country they've chosen.

Your selective quotation changed that feeling of commitment to mean ownership.

Ah, Isaac, you hairsplitopath!

So, I mistook patriotic commitment for ownership? So your quotes were meant just to extol the virtues of new immigrants' patriotism? The warm, fuzzy feeling they have about their new country? The romance behind their visit to the “Sderot cinema”?

Yes, it is possible to have commitment without a sense of ownership, as in: I am committed to my new country, whatever shape and form it might have after a negotiated settlement. But that is hardly what is going on there. And we could have continued arguing between commitment and ownership indefinitely, had it not been for your beloved context that said:

"They can't imagine any historical or other claims that would justify dividing it."

Refusal to divide something does not constitute a claim of ownership? Again, like toddlers: "It's mine and I do not want to share it" or "I found it first, it's mine."

[RSL]

Why is this a "kidnapping" and not just the capture of a prisoner of war? If Hamas sends fighters thru a tunnel into Israel and the IDF nabs them, is this also a kidnapping?

So during a cease-fire Hamas detonates a suicide bomb and grabs an IDF soldier and we're not supposed to call it a kidnapping? How about a "war crime?" In my 26 years of military service I always understood that a cease-fire means you stop fighting until the cease-fire is over. You don't detonate bombs, you don't fire rockets, and you don't grab your opponents. If you do, it's a violation of your oath. I'd say that "kidnapping" is too weak a word to describe what happened.

[jjj]

Why is this a "kidnapping" and not just the capture of a prisoner of war? If Hamas sends fighters thru a tunnel into Israel and the IDF nabs them, is this also a kidnapping?

Maybe my earlier post will explain this.

Here's an interesting article on how to market genocide.

"Dr Luntz cites as an example of an "effective Israeli sound bite" one which reads: "I particularly want to reach out to Palestinian mothers who have lost their children. No parent should have to bury their child."
Well here's a thought - stop killing them!

[jjj]

So during a cease-fire Hamas detonates a suicide bomb and grabs an IDF soldier and we're not supposed to call it a kidnapping? How about a "war crime?" In my 26 years of military service I always understood that a cease-fire means you stop fighting until the cease-fire is over. You don't detonate bombs, you don't fire rockets, and you don't grab your opponents. If you do, it's a violation of your oath. I'd say that "kidnapping" is too weak a word to describe what happened.

Cease fire means pause in shooting at each other. They are still at war with each other, so grabbing another soldier is not a kidnapping but a capture of an enemy soldier, which may well be a breach in the cease fire.
Kidnapping sounds like the language the Israelis have been media trained to use, as talked about in my link in prior post.

[BernardLanguillier]

So during a cease-fire Hamas detonates a suicide bomb and grabs an IDF soldier and we're not supposed to call it a kidnapping? How about a "war crime?" In my 26 years of military service I always understood that a cease-fire means you stop fighting until the cease-fire is over. You don't detonate bombs, you don't fire rockets, and you don't grab your opponents. If you do, it's a violation of your oath. I'd say that "kidnapping" is too weak a word to describe what happened.

Yes, Hamas breaking the ceasefire is a terrible thing, I agree with you completely on this. And making an enemy soldier prisoner in that context is even worse. I agree that it is difficult to find words to describe the horror of this action.

Now, how do you call the continuous and purposeful murder of hundreds of civilian Palestinian children by the Israeli army? Children the same age as your grand children Russ.

Cheers,
Bernard

[digitaldog]

In my 26 years of military service I always understood that a cease-fire means you stop fighting until the cease-fire is over. You don't detonate bombs, you don't fire rockets, and you don't grab your opponents. If you do, it's a violation of your oath. I'd say that "kidnapping" is too weak a word to describe what happened.

That's 26 years more military service than I and I supsect others here have so I'll take your word about what cease-fire means. And in that context, kidnapping or capture is a no-no. There is no excuse for this. And thank you for your service!

[ripgriffith]

hat's it, Vlad - greedy Jews. Does this descent into anti-semitic stereotyping serve some purpose other than your own gratification?

Jeremy

I think you need to back off, Kikashi.  You seem to be so blinded by your own vitriol that you cannot see what V has actually written.

[Manoli]

The wounds of Gaza’s children speak their own language. The flayed, burnt skin of the incendiary airstrike. The deep cuts of artillery shrapnel. Some wounds Dr Nabil Hadad has never seen before. One eight-year-old boy was laid out in front of him without a scratch, an apparent victim of shock waves from massive airstrikes. “It was as if he was asleep,” the paediatric surgeon said. “Except he was dead.”