Epson 7900 from the inside - out

[Gemmtech]

In an altruistic world Dean's post resonates with pure sincerity and accuracy, however, I can commiserate with Clic and certainly can understand his thought process and POV.  

Allow me briefly digress

The check engine light on my ex-wife's SUV came on so I took it to the dealership (it's the Mercedes of cars :-) ).  The warranty had expired, I hadn't purchased the extended warranty (I never do, invest it and pay for repairs) so when they told me it would cost $2000.00 to repair the vehicle I wasn't too happy... The service advisor ( FYI, they are salesman) was attempting to explain the problem and told me they had to replace the intake manifold because a part broke and the flaps inside the manifold wouldn't operate which would screw up the emissions....... I wasn't quite following him (I have never replaced an intake manifold except for restoring or modding a car) so I drove to the dealership to have the mechanic show me what the problem was.  The mechanic took me into the shop and showed me a unit they had off another car with a broken piece of plastic, it had two metal levers attached to it that operate the air flaps inside the manifold, the piece of plastic is about 2mm thick - 4" x 2" approximately and I'd say it cost about .05 to manufacture.  The intake manifold "assembly" which the aforementioned piece of plastic is a part of is $1,200.00, YES, this cheap piece of plastic can fail costing the customer $2,000.00 to repair.  I had the option of buying an extended warranty, however I thought since I was paying $80K for a vehicle it should last 250,000 miles or at least ten years without major repairs, Mercedes of the past seem to last this long.  How could I possibly know that a .05 piece of plastic could cause a $2,000.00 repair?  Is that reasonable?  I didn't think so and called Mercedes, the bottom line on the repair, they refunded me $1200.00 and I got the "old" intake manifold, we are currently reverse engineering the part, will make it, do the stress tests on it and probably approach MB with a fix and solution, if they don't change it we will proceed with litigation.

I'm sure I don't have to explain the above analogy how it relates to Epson printers?

I agree with what Dean writes:

From any large manufacturer's perspective it's all statistics. They all produce large numbers of printers, and they are complex devices. There is always some "infant mortality" as electronic parts "burn in" and there are always some manufacturing defects.

However, isn't it reasonable to expect a printer not have an engineering defect from the factory (I'm not saying this is the case here) or that a .05 part can cost $2,000.00 to repair?  IOW, if Epson (or any or the others) is producing a product they know will have a high rate of failure once out of warranty isn't that conning the buying public?   I certainly don't know how widespread the "problem" is regarding Epson printers, however it could be 50% and the paying public wouldn't know, this isn't the auto industry, nobody was ever killed by an inadvertent squirt of ink....lol  While I can understand what Clic is saying, how widespread is the "problem"?  If it's within industry standards then que sera, sera.  If Epson is knowingly selling a "defective" product then something should be done about it.  Every industry works the same way, but there are some that play by the rules while others don't.  It would be difficult for me to believe Epson would risk their $11 billion revenue corporation by knowingly putting out a defective product, then again, It's difficult for me to believe Mercedes Benz would use a .05 piece of plastic to control a $1200.00 part.... They all do the same thing and that's why it can be frustrating, but they look at the bottom line, how many will fail.  Dean is correct, it's all statistics.

I do believe in product karma and fortunately for me I have had 100% good luck with Epson printers and I have used and owned all 3 of them....Epson makes my favorite inkjets and HP my favorite lasers, when I deviate from that I tend to have issues...

Ps,  Listen to the dealers, they have more of an individual vested interest in selling you reliable products, they don't want 20% of their customers complaining.

[Jim Coda]

I've said this before on threads and it bears repeating. We have sold thousands of Epson printers from 17" to 63" and ALWAYS advise our customers to call us first when they have a problem. We get very few calls with ink delivery issues on Epson printers. Our sample is quite large - wink, wink, nudge, nudge - and if I were Epson I'd be happy with the track record.

Randy, what is your basis for assuming your customers call you first (and not Epson) when they have a problem?  Do you offer some solution for customers with ink delivery issues?

[Randy Carone]

One reason is that we ask them to call us first and another is that we try to keep in touch with our customer base. If they don't call us, we assume that all is well OR they chose to call Epson and were happy with the result of the phone call. We advise our customers, either repeat or new, that if they have issues that are unresolved, we will get involved with pursuing a solution.

[Gemmtech]

Randy, what is your basis for assuming your customers call you first (and not Epson) when they have a problem?  Do you offer some solution for customers with ink delivery issues?

Isn't Epson like most manufacturers?  When you have a problem they want you to call the dealer first?  You don't call Ford when your engine blows up, you take it to the dealer?  Granted, I'm making an assumption here that the LF printers are sold by people who are a lot more knowledgeable than the guy selling a $300.00 printer at BB.   I'd call a dealer first and then work my way up the ladder, why have a dealer network if you don't "need" them?

[Jim Coda]

Isn't Epson like most manufacturers?  When you have a problem they want you to call the dealer first?  You don't call Ford when your engine blows up, you take it to the dealer?  Granted, I'm making an assumption here that the LF printers are sold by people who are a lot more knowledgeable than the guy selling a $300.00 printer at BB.   I'd call a dealer first and then work my way up the ladder, why have a dealer network if you don't "need" them?

Hi Gemmtech,

I don't see the analogy to cars and I'm wondering if you have an Epson Stylus Pro printer.  When I bought my X900 printer I got an "Epson Preferred Limited Warranty Program" booklet that describes an "Epson Preferred Plus Service and Support Plan."  It says "[f]or Epson Preferred Technical Support [f]ollow these easy steps to obtain technical support."   It then says to have your serial number handy and it gives a toll free number to call.  It ends with the statement to "Be prepared to work with the Technical Support Specialist to diagnose the problem."   I've called that toll free number many times. 

I've purchased a lot of vehicles and never gotten a booklet telling me to anything like that.  It seems to me that Epson wants you to call their tech support when you have a problem.  Furthermore, unlike my local car dealer, my Epson dealer isn't set up to overhaul my printer.  If you know of any Epson dealers in Northern California equipped to repair Epson Pro printers please let me know.   

[SacredEarth]

I believe this is the second issue here: in comparing to cars the average person can go to an auto parts store and order the parts and make the repairs themselves, but as I understand it Epson will not directly sell you a replacement head for an out of warrenty printer for you to make the repairs yourself. Maybe a reasonable solution for out of warrenty head issues would be for Epson to compile a larger parts list LF printer owners could order from -and a knowledge base / forum for users to acces when attempting the repairs themselves?

[Eric Gulbransen]

Actually Sacredearth, Epson will sell you a replacement printhead directly for $1,200, "if you intend to install the printhead yourself."  

That is the line I got when I called them directly.  I was investigating my options and wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth.  There were rumors written on this very thread about printhead costs being upwards of $1,800.  Those rumors are right, but also wrong.  As it turns out they do cost you $1,800, when you pay for them through your service call via the markup you get banged for by the guy wearing the toolbelt.  But like I said before, "If you intend to install the printhead yourself" Epson themselves will sell the printhead to you directly, for $1,200.  But you get no support with it - they make it a point to warn you of this.  No software system for synching the head once you put it in.  You are on your own there.  Sounds scary.  Trust me it's not.  

I am not a professional printer.  I can afford to wait so I am, for the good of this "clog" investigation.  But if I wanted I could be printing with our 7900 in 40 minutes.  I found my way past the "23 to $2,500 service call scenario $1,800 printhead plus $xxx labor + travel time/expenses.  And that's if they replace the printhead directly.  Pray to God they don't throw other random new parts at it first...  

My repair bill will be $700 for a brand new printhead-install, plus the cost of one power cleaning.  Anyone is welcome to contact me if you, like me, are on your own (out of warranty and facing an overpriced printhead replacement repair bill which completely negates the value of fixing your X900 printer) and need help replacing your printhead.  

Knowing what I do now I would not buy a used x900 printer.  Earlier models are apparently no problem from what I read here.  But not an x900.  Something is very different about these models, and it aint all good.  

[Ernst Dinkla]

Be aware that in the sign market with piëzohead printers squirting (eco)solvent inks, the maintenance and replacement of parts by third parties is much more common than in the aqueous ink based photo printer market.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[RoderickBalle]

Knowing what I do now I would not buy a used x900 printer.

I wouldn't be buying a new one either.

Earlier models are apparently no problem from what I read here.

Seems so, fingers crossed my 4880 remains problem free. It's out of warranty and I'm miles from a major metro, so if I have problems - inspired by your gungho approach - I'd probably dive in myself.

But not an x900.  Something is very different about these models, and it aint all good. 

There does seem to be a problem with these machines, with the same fault occurring on a lot of them. If enough of you got together a class action may be worth investigating.

[DeanChriss]

I'd only stress here that unless you know how many of these print heads have been produced, what their expected life is (not in years, but in some meaningful unit like milliliters of ink they have pumped, number of piezo activations, etc), and the number of these heads that have failed prematurely relative to their design lifetime, no real conclusions can be drawn. For example, if the manufacturer produced 500,000 of these heads and 500 of them have failed prematurely, that's 0.1%. If half, failed outside warranty, that's 0.05%. That's a non-issue for the manufacturer, though it's a big issue for 250 people. I'm making up these numbers, but you get the idea.

We all have expectations of various product brands based on history, but things can and do change. In any product a new design or technology that produces better quality and/or lower cost and/or lighter weight might be more fragile or have a shorter average life. That's a perfectly legitimate compromise if the average life is still "acceptable", and industry spends tons of money to find out what "acceptable" means to most people in every category from color to longevity to smell. In fact, if a company finds its products are lasting far longer than most people expect or require, using cheaper or lighter materials that will knowingly shorten the expected lifetime is a legitimate way to cut costs to hold or decrease consumer prices and/or increase profits if the resulting product remains "acceptable" to most customers. These things are done on a daily basis all around the world in every imaginable product category. Frankly, I want my printer to last for 6 to 10 years, and some printers have done so, but no manufacturer has ever stated or warranted such a thing. I don't expect my printer to last that long because no one capable of backing up the statement has ever said it would, but I'll be happy if it does. In another 2.75 years it'll be 6.

I'm sure many people who frequent these forums are following a passion from which profits have resulted, while not being the primary motivating force. Conversely, large corporations exist primarily, even solely, for the purpose of making profits. That's why only statistically significant issues get attention at high levels, and why decisions on such issues are always made by comparing the cost of doing something with the cost of not doing it. That runs contrary to the strategy used by most print makers, which seemed worth mentioning.

[Anton Omaz]

I discover this thread, which is of major interest to me, and I have to react to Alan’s post:

Alan, why so much skepticism?  The situation seems pretty clear to me, on the one hand there is Epson, who is apparently happy to rely on people like you to systematically diffuse any criticism of their behavior, but surely we can all agree that their silence speaks volume.  We all know that Epson is monitoring this thread and many others, yet they never say anything.  Could it be that they have nothing good to say?

On the other hand, “clic” offers what appear to be very plausible explanations, and my understanding is that the only thing that he is saying is that his credentials as a photographer are such that we should have a tendency to take his opinion for an informed one.

So in a situation when I have on one side a silent party which does not offer any explanation, and whose silence is somewhat telling, and on the other a credible fellow with a three miles long resume who presents a rather good case, my inclination is not to be skeptical of the latter.  For me being skeptical of “clic” at this point, is analogous to when the flight attendant arrives next to your seat and says “what would you like for dinner Sir?  We have chicken or human excrements” you then reply “how is the chicken cooked?”

[Eric Gulbransen]

Yes you make a good point DeanChriss.  This has been brought up before as well - how forums listing threads talking about clogging issues are typically populated by the victims mainly, while the happy masses are busy printing issue free.  I get that.  But still I can't help getting the impression, inspired initially by my very first communication with Dan Berg when I contacted him about buying his 7900 used, who said "A lot of people have issues with nozzle clogs on these printers, but I have never had a problem with either of mine."  So way back then before this thread even bagan, a happy user of not only an Epson 7900, but also a 9900, knew that there was something very different about these X900 printers, which wasn't all good.

Don't get me wrong DeanChriss, I am not bitching about being screwed over by Epson.  I knew I was taking a risk buying this machine used, and I took it.  I don't feel Epson owes me anything.  I will admit though, a great part of my false confidence in buying this 7900 used from Dan was built up by the misleading marketing put out by Epson which boasts things like clogs being a thing of the past, and wasted ink not being an issue anymore, etc. etc.  To this day I have not fell for more convincing, yet misleading marketing claims in my life (based on my experience anyway, and on those who have also reported their nozzle clogging problems here on this forum).  Again this is my fault though, for believing something mostly because I wanted to believe it, not because it was true or not.  It's my loss and my poor judgement.  But you can bet your ass I will never put my faith, or money in Epson's marketing again.

Unless you are like me, and you are willing to dive under the hood of your x900, a fair used price for one of these printers out of warranty is about $500.


Here's a fascinating development:  In an attempt to copy and past some of the marketing propaganda Epson generated about these x900 printers, I did a search for one for sale on B&H - just like I have done so many times in the past.  Only this time I couldn't find one.  Anywhere.   Not sure what this means but I challenge anyone here to find a new Epson Stylus Pro 7900, or 9900, listed for sale at B&H or Adorama...    
  

[Ken Doo]

....Here's a fascinating development:  In an attempt to copy and past some of the marketing propaganda Epson generated about these x900 printers, I did a search for one for sale on B&H - just like I have done so many times in the past.  Only this time I couldn't find one.  Anywhere.   Not sure what this means but I challenge anyone here to find a new Epson Stylus Pro 7900, or 9900, listed for sale at B&H or Adorama...     
 

I think B&H may just be revamping their website---but that's my speculation.  No worries, you can find wide format Epson printers for sale (hey, there's rebates too) at www.itsupplies.com (hi andy), www.shadesofpaper.com (hi Randy), www.tastarsupply.com (hi tony)....   

I really do think these forums are magnets for the "squeeky wheel" ---and that's not to say that complaints are not legitimate; I'm sure the pain is very real.  But there are far too many variables to make any concrete conclusions.  (I call it hasty generalizations).  I'd much rather Eric's thread and experiences here remain a means to share/learn about the Epson 49/79/99** printers  "from the inside - out," tips on normal maintenance and repairs, etc. to keep these printers and their owners happy, rather than digress into finger-pointing and Epson conspiracy theory. 

ken

[Alan Goldhammer]

I discover this thread, which is of major interest to me, and I have to react to Alan’s post:

Alan, why so much skepticism?  The situation seems pretty clear to me, on the one hand there is Epson, who is apparently happy to rely on people like you to systematically diffuse any criticism of their behavior, but surely we can all agree that their silence speaks volume.  We all know that Epson is monitoring this thread and many others, yet they never say anything.  Could it be that they have nothing good to say?

On the other hand, “clic” offers what appear to be very plausible explanations, and my understanding is that the only thing that he is saying is that his credentials as a photographer are such that we should have a tendency to take his opinion for an informed one.

So in a situation when I have on one side a silent party which does not offer any explanation, and whose silence is somewhat telling, and on the other a credible fellow with a three miles long resume who presents a rather good case, my inclination is not to be skeptical of the latter.  For me being skeptical of “clic” at this point, is analogous to when the flight attendant arrives next to your seat and says “what would you like for dinner Sir?  We have chicken or human excrements” you then reply “how is the chicken cooked?”

I wouldn't normally respond to what is likely a troll post but since my name is the one mentioned here it is deserving of comment.  We know that Epson monitors this forum (and likely others as well).  As I noted, they are the ONLY ones who know the percentage of printers that require a service call when under warranty.  No company stays in business for a long time if they market a substandard product.  Customers will quickly move on to other manufacturers.  Your support of 'clic' is fine for you but I see nothing that would persuade me that he has a sufficient background in engineering or quality control that makes what he says the last word on the subject.  I know of two people who have 7900s that have not had any printing problems, you would be a great fool were I to say that this means all 7900 printers are problem free.  Anecdotes do not make data.

[Eric Gulbransen]

I think B&H may just be revamping their website---but that's my speculation.....  

ken

I thought the same thing Ken, until I also checked Adorama's site.  None there either..  And typically when you do a search, like for say a discontinued Epson 4880, you still get a resulting page where the printer is listed, it's just listed as "Discontinued".  Here is an example  

Same is true for Adorama.  Interesting I think.  Yes I know you can find plenty of places to buy them, it's just these particular sites are typically on the cutting edge when it comes to timing.  It's not an accident these printers are vanished

[DeanChriss]

Yes you make a good point DeanChriss.  This has been brought up before as well - how forums listing threads talking about clogging issues are typically populated by the victims mainly, while the happy masses are busy printing issue free.  I get that.  But still I can't help getting the impression, inspired initially by my very first communication with Dan Berg when I contacted him about buying his 7900 used, who said "A lot of people have issues with nozzle clogs on these printers, but I have never had a problem with either of mine."  So way back then before this thread even bagan, a happy user of not only an Epson 7900, but also a 9900, knew that there was something very different about these X900 printers, which wasn't all good.

Don't get me wrong DeanChriss, I am not bitching about being screwed over by Epson.  I knew I was taking a risk buying this machine used, and I took it.  I don't feel Epson owes me anything.  I will admit though, a great part of my false confidence in buying this 7900 used from Dan was built up by the misleading marketing put out by Epson which boasts things like clogs being a thing of the past, and wasted ink not being an issue anymore, etc. etc.  To this day I have not fell for more convincing, yet misleading marketing claims in my life (based on my experience anyway, and on those who have also reported their nozzle clogging problems here on this forum).  Again this is my fault though, for believing something mostly because I wanted to believe it, not because it was true or not.  It's my loss and my poor judgement.  But you can bet your ass I will never put my faith, or money in Epson's marketing again.

Unless you are like me, and you are willing to dive under the hood of your x900, a fair used price for one of these printers out of warranty is about $500.

Hi Eric.

The X900 printers do clog more than previous models. Mine does. Sometimes it'll go months without clogs and sometimes it needs a cleaning almost every time I turn it on, but the clogs (or whatever they are) always clear easily. The clogging could be the result of some defect, but it could also be the logical result of the smaller nozzles that produce smaller ink droplets. The head failures you and others have experienced could have some different cause, or there could be a connection. I have no idea what the actual cause is.

One point of my post was to illustrate that designing something to make one feature better (ex; print quality) might make other features (ex; clogging) worse. In most engineering efforts there comes a point where you can have A or you can have B, but you can't have both. It may be due to the release date, project budget, the resulting product cost, or simply the lack of a technology to do both. Another point of my post was to point out that the motivation of all these manufacturers is not to make the best printer on the market, it is to make the best selling printer on the market. There's a strong correlation between those two things, but it is not 100%. It's also important to realize that "best" means different things to different people. Someone who has to have one feature might tolerate inadequacy in other features, for instance.

I have never thought you are "bitching about being screwed over by Epson". In fact you have approached this in a very reasonable way, with far more patience than I'd have had. I've seen Epson marketing for the 7900 (mailed to my home) recently that I'd definitely call misleading. Clogs are definitely not a thing of the past, but I've found them to pose no real issue. I've found ink use, even with the clogging, to be very economical so I can't take issue with those claims.

It's odd how "touchy" internet forums are, which is the reason I post so infrequently. My educational background is in mathematics and physics, and I have some experience developing automated process control systems, implementing statistical quality control, and designing industrial products. I hope I've provided a little info to make some of these issues easier to understand, if not easier to tolerate. I'm not defending Epson nor am I convicting them. Given the large volumes of equipment they produce and the lack of meaningful data it's just impossible to draw any conclusions, or even to say that a serious and pervasive issue exists. The only certainty is that some people, you included, have had serious problems. At the same time there's no product out there that doesn't have its horror stories, and users who would swear it's the worst thing ever made. The bottom line is that nothing I've seen posted here or elsewhere would stop me from buying Epson again, though I'd consider the additional warranty I didn't consider previously just for peace of mind.

Good luck with the printer and all else.

[Eric Gulbransen]

I agree DeanChriss.  And I appreciate your posts.  I am not saying I won't buy Epson again either.  But I definitely I won't base my judgement to buy or not to buy, on their marketing claims like I did last time.  I'll read about them here before I read about them there.

[WallyM]

Not sure what this means but I challenge anyone here to find a new Epson Stylus Pro 7900, or 9900, listed for sale at B&H or Adorama...    
 

The 3880 was also removed from the B&H website just a few days after I ordered one in late February.  All of the wide format printers were removed, but the 3880 is back now (it was still missing 3 days ago).  The current price of the 3880 is the same as I paid 3 weeks ago.

Wally

[gwhitf]

I really do think these forums are magnets for the "squeeky wheel" ---and that's not to say that complaints are not legitimate; I'm sure the pain is very real.  But there are far too many variables to make any concrete conclusions.  (I call it hasty generalizations).

I've been reading this forum for a long time. Years and years. I've own 7600, 7800, 9880, and now 7900.

I do not remember any thread, related to these other printers that generated anywhere near this amount of almost exact failure conditions -- LLK blocked, and almost nothing makes it break free. And at a time when any 9900 or 7900 is still a relatively new printer, no matter when it was purchased.

No, this is not Science, or Exact Data Collection, but my Smell Test makes me wonder what's going on. Why would ALL these people be having almost the exact same issue....? And yes, I've got a horse in this race, because my LLK is blocked on my 7900, but I'm trying to be level-headed about it. Yes, I'm upset and disappointed that my printer has been sitting idle for weeks now, unable to print anything other than horizontal banding. I just want to see if someone solves this, so that I can know whether I've got to pony up to the bar with Decision One, or just chuck this almost perfectly good, very low volume printer, right into a Dumpster.

[Anton Omaz]

I wouldn't normally respond to what is likely a troll post but since my name is the one mentioned here it is deserving of comment.  We know that Epson monitors this forum (and likely others as well).  As I noted, they are the ONLY ones who know the percentage of printers that require a service call when under warranty.  No company stays in business for a long time if they market a substandard product.  Customers will quickly move on to other manufacturers.  Your support of 'clic' is fine for you but I see nothing that would persuade me that he has a sufficient background in engineering or quality control that makes what he says the last word on the subject.  I know of two people who have 7900s that have not had any printing problems, you would be a great fool were I to say that this means all 7900 printers are problem free.  Anecdotes do not make data.

Alan,

I don’t understand your point, or why you keep repeating that the only ones who have data are Epson.  That is self evident, but since they are playing dead, the rest of us have to interpret the little bits of information we have.  And so far the case has pretty much been made that there is a manufacturing or engineering issue that has resulted in a few cases (maybe not an enormous amount, but enough to be a concern) of head failures, that under any measure is utterly premature.

Sacredearth and Gemmtech made a very good case that most honorable manufacturers in comparable situations, being electronics, cars, you name it, typically would be gracious in such a situation, in order to preserve their customer base.

Your statement “No company stays in business for a long time if they market a substandard product.  Customers will quickly move on to other manufacturers.” is seductive, but does not verify here.  Canon for instance has the 8300 currently 50% cheaper than the 9900 once you factor in the amount of ink that the printer ships with, yet they sell 1 for every 9 that Epson sells.  Add the controversy that we are all talking about here, and it does not seem that your theory holds water.  At least if customers are moving away, it is not quickly, which I find mind boggling, but a stubborn fact.  And really by dispersing that kind of myth, you participate in the perpetuation of Epson’s isolation from any real competition and incentive to resolve this issue. 

Nobody says that Epson x900s are substandard products, they just say that there are some lemons, probably more than usual, but regardless of how many more or less, there are lemons, and Epson should draw the consequences from that, and the victims users should not be the ones who bear the price. 

I would like to purchase a 9900 myself, but as long as I do not hear a valid explanation for the situation here, and see a solution, I will stay away, or buy a Canon, which is probably the most sensible choice anyway.