Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.

[Peter_DL]

Yes, Peter the change from ACR 5 to ACR 6 is the Camera Profile 'Default'.  
With ACR 5 (CS4), the Camera Profile default was ACR 4.4.
When that upgraded to ACR 6 (CS5), the default became Adobe Standard.  That was the change and the problem with my pictures since upgrading to CS5.

Sorry - got off the track with my reply here.

Peter

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[b2martin]

I had not checked Adobe Standard versus ACR4.x profiles, but I see a major difference between these profiles for my D200 and D700.  Photoshop CS5 has ACR4.4 and ACR3.3 for the D200 and ACR4.6 for the D700.  The ACR4.x and ACR3.3 profiles color balance is much closer to the Camera Profiles than Adobe Standard.  I have a custom profile for the D200 that is close to the in camera profile and for the D700 I use an adjusted Camera Netural or Camera D2x Mode 2 profile with modification to contrast and/or saturation that I did using Adobe DNG profile Editor.  I get very close agreement with in camera modification to the same  Picture Contrtol profiles for the D700.  I modified the contrast by using a custom tone curve in the DNG profile Editor and modified saturation by adjusting the Primary Red, Green, and Blue saturation by the same amount. 

[stamper]

I didn't know that Adobe made ACR profiles to suit different cameras?

>but I see a major difference between these profiles for my D200 and D700.  Photoshop CS5 has ACR4.4 and ACR3.3 >for the D200 and ACR4.6 for the D700.

I think you are approaching this from the wrong direction. The profiles are a "suggestion" from Adobe which you may want to choose, or not. If you make your own then you do so to suit your own taste and trying to match them to the camera maker and/or Adobe is possibly futile and a waste of time? You don't seem to be using the latest ACR 6.4 0.121. Any way you can't expect the profile for the D200 and the D700 to be the same? Perhaps Jeff or Eric can answer this better than myself because you seem to be causing confusion with your post.

[Raw shooter]

I had not checked Adobe Standard versus ACR4.x profiles, but I see a major difference between these profiles for my D200 and D700.  Photoshop CS5 has ACR4.4 and ACR3.3 for the D200 and ACR4.6 for the D700.  The ACR4.x and ACR3.3 profiles color balance is much closer to the Camera Profiles than Adobe Standard.  I have a custom profile for the D200 that is close to the in camera profile and for the D700 I use an adjusted Camera Netural or Camera D2x Mode 2 profile with modification to contrast and/or saturation that I did using Adobe DNG profile Editor.  I get very close agreement with in camera modification to the same  Picture Contrtol profiles for the D700.  I modified the contrast by using a custom tone curve in the DNG profile Editor and modified saturation by adjusting the Primary Red, Green, and Blue saturation by the same amount. 

b2martin, you have found the exact same result as I did.  The Adobe Standard is way different than either the Camera Standard or a Custom Camera Profile.  Interesting that you found this with 2 different cameras.
If color accuracy is your starting point goal, then the Custom Camera Profile is best with the Camera Standard being very close.  Both are good. 

The Adobe Standard is a poor starting point in this scenario - if color accuracy is most important.

Others in this thread are simply using Camera Profiles as a starting point in artistic interpretation of their pictures.  That's a whole different subject - and in that case, all the Camera Profiles are equally good.  Attempting to be color accurate and creating art are just different workflows.

[b2martin]

Stamper, I don't understand your post.  Profiles available from Adobe for ACR were named ACR3.x, ACR4.x, etc. before they renamed the profiles to Adobe Standard.  I don't remember which version of Photoshop first included Adobe Standard profiles, but it also included the ACR3.x and ACR4.x profiles.  All of these profiles are camera specific.  Adobe also released Camera Profiles for Nikon, Canon, and some others that give results very close to profiles used in the camera to generate JPG images.  I have less problems with white balance values if the profile I use gives results in line with profiles that are available in the camera.  Nikon calls their profiles Picture Control starting with the D300, and Adobe generated profiles that give result very close to these, which are the ones I am using.  Nikon also allows you to modify these in their image processing software and in the camera.  I am doing the same with ACR Camera profiles Adobe generated using the DNG Profile Editor and get very close agreement to the in camera profilbe modified in the camera.   

[stamper]

Leaving aside the fact that Adobe has specific profiles for different cameras - which I haven't located - I think you are chasing your tail on this issue. I - and better people than me - don't believe there are accurate colours. How do you even know the MacBeth colour chart is accurate? I have read - it is contentious - that colour doesn't exist in the real world. The real world is black and white with grey in between and colour is invented by our brains. If this is true then accurate colour definitely doesn't exist. Different camera manufacturers render colour differently. A camera makes an exposure based on luminosity - blacks greys and whites - and then adds the colour after the exposure has been captured. So which camera manufacturer - or more accurately sensor manufacturer - has an accurate colour? Comparing different profiles and trying to match them will cause frustration - it does to you - and I believe you won't be better off in the long run. Personally I try  - as you point out - for artistic colours that are pleasing. In the Professional world some business people demand accurate colours but if you arent doing business with them then why bother. Even if you get an accurate profile surely then any further work in Photoshop using curves, or what ever, will the skew the colours in another direction and all accuracy has gone?  

[b2martin]

Camera profiles that you can select in the RAW converter are all specific for the camera that shot the picture.  If you want to see all the camera profiles you will have to open the folder where the profiles are located and they are identified by camera type.  Custom profiles that you create are located in a different folder. 

I agree that accurate color is difficult and is probably only required in product photography.  Pleasing color is what I want and I believe that is what most camera manufacturers use as their goal of profiles.  I believe their white balance algorithms and presets are optimized for their profiles, so if you use a profile that gives different color results it takes more time to get the color acceptable when processing the RAW file, this is why I am after a profile that gives equivalent results to the camera profiles. 

[Bryan Conner]

I have read - it is contentious - that colour doesn't exist in the real world. The real world is black and white with grey in between and colour is invented by our brains. If this is true then accurate colour definitely doesn't exist.

This forum does not really exist.  You are the only member and all of the other posts are constructions of your imagination.  Now, that you have read the previous sentence, it is so.

[digitaldog]

This forum does not really exist.  You are the only member and all of the other posts are constructions of your imagination.  Now, that you have read the previous sentence, it is so.

We are all in the Matrix!

Actually what stamper says is true in that color is a perceptual property.

[Bryan Conner]

We are all in the Matrix!

Actually what stamper says is true in that color is a perceptual property.

I definitely know that color is a perceptual property, just ask my wife- she will verify that my color perception is a bit "cattywompus" as evidenced by my clothing choices.   

And so everyone knows, I was only making a joke meant only in fun towards Stamper.  I just know that if I start thinking about color perception and such...wondering "is the color that I see when I look at the sky today the same color as the one the person standing next to me is seeing?", I will end up with my forehead wrinkled and my head tilted to one side looking like a dog hearing something strange.   

[Ben Rubinstein]

Eric taught me a trick to map a different profile and to make a custom profile. For example I also believe the 'Adobe Standard' profiles are horribly over magenta, especially in the skin tones. I prefer the older 3.X profiles but there isn't one for example for newer cameras. What I can do is map the old profile from a different camera onto the new camera (with no native old profile) using the DNG profile editor. I love this ability, it's all about choice!

[Kiwigrest]

Eric taught me a trick to map a different profile and to make a custom profile. For example I also believe the 'Adobe Standard' profiles are horribly over magenta, especially in the skin tones. I prefer the older 3.X profiles but there isn't one for example for newer cameras. What I can do is map the old profile from a different camera onto the new camera (with no native old profile) using the DNG profile editor. I love this ability, it's all about choice!

Hi Ben,

Would you mind elaborating on the 'how-to' procedure for that, if it's not too complicated and cumbersome? -- that would be really helpful!

I'm just getting myself up to speed on this whole thing @ http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles

[Peter_DL]

I prefer the older 3.X profiles but there isn't one for example for newer cameras.
What I can do is map the old profile from a different camera onto the new camera (with no native old profile) using the DNG profile editor.

It is there, but it is hidden.
No need for exchanging the look between different cameras / profiles.
To access the Baseline Matrix profile for your camera, one option is:

/> with the DNG Profile editor, to run the Chart Wizard on any suitable shot of the ColorChecker.
/> Edit: Clear All Adjustments
/> Export Profile
Done.

Peter

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[b2martin]

Peter, I tried what you suggested and I do like the profile that resulted. 

I opened a D700 image of the colorchecker taken in direct sunlight with Camera Standard selected as the profile.  Selected the Chart Tab, aligned the four corner markers and clicked to create color table, which takes you to the color tables tab.  I then clicked on Edit and clicked to clear all adjustments.  I then saved the profile. 

This profile gives different results than any of the other profiles I have.  What defines the characteristics of this profile?

[Peter_DL]

Peter, I tried what you suggested and I do like the profile that resulted...

This profile gives different results than any of the other profiles I have.  What defines the characteristics of this profile?

The Baseline matrix profile is supposed to deliver a best-fit matrix space
(across all colors, however, only Adobe will know how it is precisely calculated) for the camera unit which was characterized by Adobe.
The other profiles such as Adobe Standard or the Camera Matching profiles just set their tweaks on the top in order to deliver what is expected to be a (more) pleasing rendition. This can work, or not, as far as I can tell.

Another way to access the Baseline matrix with newer cameras is to delete all these profiles. The Raw file will then open with the hidden Matrix profile (provided that the camera is already supported by the respective ACR version).

Peter

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[b2martin]

Peter, thanks for the feedback. 

If I understand correctly, the Baseline Matrix Profile that results is not a function of the profile that was listed in the "Color Table" tab when you open the DNG image. 

I did this for a D200, and the profile looks great. 

I don't understand why Adobe does not publish this characteristic. 

[Peter_DL]

If I understand correctly, the Baseline Matrix Profile that results is not a function of the profile that was listed in the "Color Table" tab when you open the DNG image.

It is probably just the terminology which can be confusing.

Let’s say we start with the Adobe Standard profile or any Camera Matching profile as indicated in the Color Table > Base Profile. Then run the Chart Wizard.  The Color Table > Base Profile now changes to an entry saying "ColorChecker". That is the Baseline Matrix profile. Upon running the Chart Wizard any "Look table" of the Adobe Standard profile or a Camera Matching profile are stripped off, and the unit corrections for your camera – as derived by the Chart Wizard - are set on top of the Baseline Matrix profile (which always was inherently present with the starting profiles).  Now, if we Clear Color Adjustments (if we want so), we are back with the Baseline Matrix profile.

Peter

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[b2martin]

Peter, this is a little different that your earlier post.  In the earlier post you said "Clear all Adjustments" and in this one "Clear Color Adjustments". 

I generated the profile by clicking "Clear all Adjustments".  I ran the DNG Profile Editor twice, the first one had "Camera Standard" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected  "Chart" tab, and the second one had "Camera Neutral" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected "Chart" Tab.  I closed the DNG Profile Editor between these two runs because I found that even though I selected Camera Neutral for the second pass and then "Chart" tab that the two profiles were identical.  If I selected the profile in the "Color Tables" tab before the "Chart" tab is selected, the profiles are different - they have the tone and saturation characteristics of the profile I selected in the "Color Tables" tab. 

[Peter_DL]

In the earlier post you said "Clear all Adjustments" and in this one "Clear Color Adjustments".  

I generated the profile by clicking "Clear all Adjustments".  I ran the DNG Profile Editor twice, the first one had "Camera Standard" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected  "Chart" tab, and the second one had "Camera Neutral" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected "Chart" Tab.  I closed the DNG Profile Editor between these two runs because I found that even though I selected Camera Neutral for the second pass and then "Chart" tab that the two profiles were identical.  If I selected the profile in the "Color Tables" tab before the "Chart" tab is selected, the profiles are different - they have the tone and saturation characteristics of the profile I selected in the "Color Tables" tab.

"Clear Color Adjustments" clears all generic color adjustments from the Chart Wizard (except that it won't bring back the Look table of the starting profile).
So does "Clear All Adjustments", however, it may additionally clear the deviating tonality introduced by Camera Matching profiles. Not sure, I’m more used to start with the Adobe Standard profile.

Peter

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[madmanchan]

Yes, clear all adjustments will also reset any changes you may have made to the tone curve (2nd panel), in addition to the color edits (1st panel).